The robots (Full Version)

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EpicIsEpic -> The robots (11/23/2013 18:00:06)

So for those of you who haven't realized there is a big issue with some of the bots. Now i am not talking about the most obvious 1 (poison bot) i am talking about Pyro Fly.
Why?

Because in game there is a skill core (Concussive Shot) which does the same thing only difference being it deals 80% damage.
Before there wasn't a problem because battles were shorter (due to higher damage) and the skill cores didn't have energy requirements.
Now that battles are long and the passives that changed to actives can be disabled makes it really unfair etspecially if it is one of your highest skills.
You invest up to 10 skill points that can be disabled for a battle because one person uses this robot.

How can we fix this?
Put an energy requirement on the robot special! And make it for certain amount of turns or make it 1 of any skill this way the opponent will be risking to disable for high cost
a useless skill.

P.S.

I know this is a rare robot and it costs varium but for taking away up to 10 skill points it seems a little bit too strong.



Altador987 -> RE: The robots (11/23/2013 18:58:29)

nah i think think it's fine the way it is as it's already a one hit gamble not to mention it's only other attack is energy and it did cost varium not to mention a lot of people don't have it so it's not like every one just brought out the pyro fly, also the aux skill only delays the skill it's not taken out completely



Stabilis -> RE: The robots (11/23/2013 19:02:51)

I use the bot myself and it is currently my favourite. [;)]

I think an energy cost would be OK if it proves to do too much for so little (a turn).



Mother1 -> RE: The robots (11/23/2013 19:04:30)

While I have this bot as you mentioned it is rare and to be honest it is one of the most rarely used bots in the game just like the Azreal's borg, Gamma bot, and bio borg.

Plus the skill itself is completely random. If the bot could take out any skill that you wanted by choice then I could agree but this bot is a pure luck bot meaning there is no grantee you will get what you want.

So to nerf it to the point where it is like the aux core I can't support.



Altador987 -> RE: The robots (11/23/2013 19:10:29)

i mean i get that with this new update the bot is quite useful but i've seen it once like a week ago and i literally don't remember the last time i saw it i see the A borg and Bio borg more than that one



Stabilis -> RE: The robots (11/23/2013 19:19:46)

I still do not get why the Bio Borg was nerfed from 50% reflection from 25%. Even at 50% reflection I still needed to heal and constitute my own attacks. This is when we had Deadly Aim and I was using Azrael's Will. The build only countered Strength builds and its damage was only mediocre. This was 1 of the Strength-Support builds before the wave of them came.



Mother1 -> RE: The robots (11/23/2013 19:28:42)

@ depressed void

Are you sure you aren't using thorns with someone who has the mark of blood or a NPC that has bloodlust? I just tested out the bio borg and without these on the damage given back to the opponent was 50%.

If you are marked while they attack you, the damage done will be subtracted from the amount they heal.



Stabilis -> RE: The robots (11/23/2013 19:30:38)

This was even before Will had an energy cost. 1 day I log in and I only reflect a quarter.



Mother1 -> RE: The robots (11/23/2013 19:36:33)

Did the person mark you with Mark of Blood? or did the NPC have Bloodlust as a passive? Because you are marked with mark of blood, or the NPC has bloodlust what they will gain back from damaging you will be subtracted from whatever melee damage they do to you.



Stabilis -> RE: The robots (11/23/2013 19:51:27)

Before Will had an energy cost (this might be a bad reference sorry), before the poison bot was even introduced, implying that Mark of Blood was nonexistent.



Mother1 -> RE: The robots (11/23/2013 20:11:14)

@ depressed

I was asking you this because I had recently test out my bio borg robot on a NPC that didn't have bloodlust, and when they did 6 damage to me they took 3 damage which is 50% of the damage given.



Stabilis -> RE: The robots (11/23/2013 20:55:03)

Maybe it was a bug then because this happened a few months ago. If the reflection is still 50% I might consider using it again if Strength runs rampant.



Remorse -> RE: The robots (11/23/2013 23:44:21)

Pyro fly is extremely unbalanced IMO.



Anything that has a CHANCE to effectively win the game is ridiculous. It is taking strategy in the game and spitting on it and replacing it with pathetic luck.


This bot has potential to be great if to things are changed

Firstly remove the luck so YOU choose the exact skill you want to effect, enhancing strategy rather then extremely lowering it.

Secondly reduce the disabled duration to 2-3 turns so it is more or less balanced


I do not care at all if this bot is rare this is not even a consideration in my mind, because I don't think it is fair that on the rare occasion you verse someone with pyro fly that they have a CHANCE of getting a much easier win.

It should be they use it to out smart the opponent with an effective strategy not have a chance to completely destroy certain builds and gain free wins.


Enough with the luck educed games.

Please don't think I am against luck here I realize it is important but when you cannot account for it and it potentially wrecks balance then I have a problem with it.


Please do not tell me, "but remorse the chance to stop the skill you want is low" NO! it should never have the ability to get a free win even if the chances are beyond minute. NEVER!









Mother1 -> RE: The robots (11/24/2013 0:04:39)

@ Remorse

That was the main reason the staff made it random. Because if it wasn't it would be vastly overpowered due to anyone tom dick and harry being able to shut off the exact move they wanted even if it was for 2-3 turns.

I remember a staff member even saying that when it was asked why this bot's special was random.

Also with a balanced build you shouldn't have to rely on any single move period. Having any move as a must have in any build is a sign that your build isn't balanced and something is wrong. In a balanced build that works this luck based special shouldn't even matter TBH.



EpicIsEpic -> RE: The robots (11/24/2013 4:42:19)

@Mother1
Lets say i meet an exact replicat of my build just the opponent uses Pyro Fly.

E.G. My 3 highest skills are heal, battery backup and assimilation. They all are maxed.

E.G.) He disables my assimilation, My battery backup isn't strong enough for me to heal so i have 2 wait 8 turns to get 1 heal, he can heal and cast spells. (due to assimilation and battery backup because no one is stealing his energy and he is gaining it from assimilation)

E.G.2) He disables my heal. All he has to do is just wait it out by buffing himself and tanking and heal looping. He obviously wins because i can't heal he can.

E.G 3) He disables my battery backup. All he has to do is wait till my energy ends and he wins due to him being able to heal loop while i can't.

And remember if it is 1 of my 3 highest skills i obviously have invested a lot of skill points into it. I won't just waste my skill points in to skills i don't want.

IT HAS TO BE NERFED. There is no way that this robot is ok as it is. And why wouldn't you wan't it nerfed unless you have the robot which you do. Remember you can't be bias
just because you own the item.



Jekyll -> RE: The robots (11/24/2013 5:45:52)

The robot is perfectly fine the way it is. You can't loop it like the poison bot, and remember, there are always workarounds.

Use a decoy skill - have a high-level rubbish skill if you can afford the points, so that it lowers the chance of your important attack being disabled.

------

As you said, we can't be biased just because we possess the robot. Conversely, you cannot be biased just because you don't have the robot. Sounds fair? Essentially, what I'm saying is that no one is capable of being completely impartial, because we all have our own interests at stake. Those with the robot, and those without, are equally biased and should one should not accuse the other of being biased. The only true non-biased perspective would be that of someone who does not play EpicDuel. They watch from the sidelines, and make fair comments. Other than that, any and every player will be biased in some way. That is why we discuss on a forum about potential changes; bias is inevitable.


------

I think the robot that needs the most attention right now is the poison bot simply because it can be looped over and over again without cost.

------

Furthermore I think that the last thing the developers should do is nerf another rare item. It's just going to be another slap in the face for all Delta-and-before Varium players. Just going to be another unnecessary, unpopular move that will force even more people out of this game. Right now, in the time I take to see 1 person use a Pyro Fly I would have been through almost 30 poison robots.

quote:

Also with a balanced build you shouldn't have to rely on any single move period. Having any move as a must have in any build is a sign that your build isn't balanced and something is wrong. In a balanced build that works this luck based special shouldn't even matter TBH.


This. I use my Pyro Fly against those looping-TMs, and it works wonders against those who have no strategy but Plasma-Assmiliate-Heal-SC-Battery. A smart player will be able to win even if one skill is disabled. I have seen my fair share of players who are capable of winning even without Assimilate or Battery, but yes, there are those who are completely lost once they lose one of their skills. Those with poor strategies will be thrown off their game. Those with good strategies won't be affected.

By nerfing the robot, we are simply encouraging people not to think and continue with their mindless looping cycles. To put it bluntly, we should not reward those who are struggling because of their own deficiencies. I'm sorry if this touches any raw nerves, but this is how everything should go.



Ranloth -> RE: The robots (11/24/2013 6:05:38)

I'll be with Jekyll on this one. In fact, the Bot got indirectly buffed and nerfed with the passives change;

  • 12 skills that can be disabled, as opposed to 9-10 - which didn't include passives
  • More skill points available since you don't need to max out skills either - decoy skill
  • More skills can be disabled - which is in fact, a buff

    Only because it has a chance to disable one of your 3 highest moves, that doesn't make it imbalanced. If you think probability is imbalanced, time to think things through and realise the whole game is run with probabilities - first strike, deflections, blocks, your own damage (there's a range in which you can hit and equal chance for any number within it).

    With Pyro Fly, you are essentially gambling, since you may disable useless skill and end up losing damage that turn and making no difference or whatsoever. Or you may get lucky and disable one of your opponent's crucial skills, which will put you at a strategical advantage, but not necessarily damage wise since you've dealt less damage that turn and your opponent may get back at you.

    Lastly, Devs did make it clear: if a build must rely on a specific skill, it alarms them something may be overpowered.
    This is the same case with build-making: if you rely on a certain skill, and have no back-up strategy in case it gets delayed (Concussion Shot) or disabled (Pyro Fly), then it's you having a flawed build. You either put up with the flaws in your build, or think of a strategy that may come in handy if such thing happens.



    • Remorse -> RE: The robots (11/24/2013 6:40:17)

    quote:

    That was the main reason the staff made it random. Because if it wasn't it would be vastly overpowered due to anyone tom dick and harry being able to shut off the exact move they wanted even if it was for 2-3 turns.

    I remember a staff member even saying that when it was asked why this bot's special was random.

    Also with a balanced build you shouldn't have to rely on any single move period. Having any move as a must have in any build is a sign that your build isn't balanced and something is wrong. In a balanced build that works this luck based special shouldn't even matter TBH.


    WHAT is wrong with being able to select a skill to disable for a few turns? bear in mind that you have to waste a turn using the pyro fly active.


    quote:

    due to anyone tom dick and harry being able to shut off the exact move they wanted


    SO???? WOW that is the whole point of strategy games, is to out smart your opponent.


    You said it yourself you shouldn't rely on one skill, so why is it less of an issue not to rely on a skill for 2 turns rather then the whole game????????



    The only reason I would see anyone agreeing to this Bot is if you have a view of an items effect over multiple games.


    What I would prefer you look at it from a single game perspective, if it has the chance to win the game hands down with a single luck facter hen it is ridiculous.


    I dont care if this bot doesn't effect my heaps of times because they don't block the skill I need, as soon as I lose ONE game from a ridiculous luck based bot is is too many times.


    Balance should not always be looked at from a perspective of multiple games, it should by looked as well from an indivdual level.



    For instance imagine if when you play chess and you have a 10% chance to knock out their queen if you sacrifice a pawn. Anyone that loses a game because their queen got killed due to a pawn being sacrificed DOES NOT deserve to have the included as a lose.



    This is a turn based STRATEGY no turn based, % chance to win for free.






    Please do not compare other minute luck factors to this one, yes starting chance, crit blocks deflects etc have an impact but they can be controlled this bot is merely and nothing less then a joke.




    Ranloth -> RE: The robots (11/24/2013 6:55:46)

    Remorse, can you please stop with hyperboles? You're seriously overexaggerating the effect of Pyro Fly and it doesn't help you to get your point accross.

    quote:

    This is a turn based STRATEGY no turn based, % chance to win for free.

    You're blaming an item for flawed build-making. If you disable crucial skill, you aren't guaranteed a win. If you are, thank your opponent for making a flawed build. And as you've said, it shouldn't be looked from individual level only. One player will be your typical copy-cat, whilst other will be smart. Difference? Pyro Fly may be less efficient.

    Luck is STILL strategy. I can compare it to other factors which run on probability - I don't see why you say I can't. YOU have as much control over it as you do with effects. Top 3 skills are always chosen, and with effects, it's your and your opponent's stats.

    If you hate LUCK or PROBABILITY, find a counter for it. If luck screws your build, revise it. It's flawed build-making at its finest, not blaming an item for your loss. You have PLENTY of counters and you are NOT guaranteed to take your opponent's crucial skill, but you may do! It's a gamble. You risk losing (less damage + useless skill) just to have an edge. It is still STRATEGY because it may have a bigger impact later on in the battle, to the point where you lose or win.

    Lastly, if YOU refuse to see probability as part of the game, then it's your problem - not the game's. Other luck factors run on probability, and there is nothing wrong in a bit of a gamble. It does have its strategical value and you risk a lot for an advantage, but you may end up at a disadvantage. You have plenty of counters, and players have found ways to nullify its effect - such as decoys - and being immune to it, or at least from taking their most important skill. You are NOT supposed to be able to counter everything NOR win against everyone.
    If I blame Botanical Hazard for loss because I have 80 HP, whilst I won with 130 HP, where is the problem? High HP is a counter whilst low HP makes the Bot more powerful. (the issue whether the Bot is balanced or not, is not up for discussion here)



    Remorse -> RE: The robots (11/24/2013 7:04:08)

    All I want to know is what is so wrong with making this bot so you are ABLE TO CHOOSE the skill but it is only disabled for 2 or 3 turns??


    I said it SHOULD be looked from an individual level, having a build that relies on skills is not OP, and it not ok to dismiss it as well or put it down to them having a lack of strategy, if you have a build that relies on skill then that's great it enhances variety, and to counter it A NON LUCK BASED and less overpowering version of pyro fly would be perfect.

    But when you make counters that are to extreme because they are based on luck I simply don't understand why not make the counter fare less strong but not luck based?


    I know you can control luck, I mentioned that I also mentioned why I know luck is needed which is why your rude accusation that you think I don't is extremely disrespectful.






    Altador987 -> RE: The robots (11/24/2013 9:40:49)

    because people paid actual money for this bot to do what it does, i can't imagine why it bothers you oh so much as you can't have seen oh so many of em to begin with not to mention if you can't function without a single skill then there's something wrong in your strategy the luck only being the opponent never made a plan B with his or her stats in case something like this were to happen, the only way i could see your idea working is if it were loopable for 2-3 turns (random or not i think random is still a better solution) and the same skill couldnt be put on cooldown in a row, otherwise you really haven't explained even from an individual level why it needs to be nerfed other than the fact that you've made no other way for a certain build to work without a certain skill and in anger call it luck just like most players do when they leave their opponent with 1 hp and call it luck when the fact of the matter is they weren't strong enough to kill.



    Ranloth -> RE: The robots (11/24/2013 9:53:59)

    Actually, Altador987, it can be nerfed even if you paid real money for it. But the only reason for it would be the necessity to do so - such as perhaps Botanical Hazard, which is both, promo and in-game item. Another Bot that falls under this category is Bio Hazard - but that one was buffed so Azrael Bot (and now Torment too) will not affect it (counter).

    The only reason I see for Pyro Fly to be nerfed is "luck is bad, please nerf to oblivion", and flawed build-making if you depend on one skill and have no strategy planned for "what if...".

    Instead of looking at the effect, perhaps people should consider the lower damage it deals, a chance to disable one of the top 3 skills, and the long-term effects of it, such as [1] lower damage dealt in the battle which may set you back, [2] disabling skill that may not be useful for your opponent anyway thus losing out on it, and [3] other effects which may contribute to the Bot - for example, lower damage + Mark of Blood = less HP returned.

    The Bot's power IS big, but it's balanced by having a chance to disable one of the top 3 skills, essentially 1/3 (33.33%) chance, and not working out to your advantage, at all. Sometimes it will make a great impact, but at other times, it will be completely useless or have little impact on the opponent and put you at a disadvantage.
    Similar to Poison Bot - its effect is rendered useless on high HP builds and short battles, since it has lower impact. But in long drawn-out battles, it will make a big impact due to no Energy cost and being able to loop it with specific strategy that may work for some classes better than the others.



    Remorse -> RE: The robots (11/24/2013 10:06:48)

    I never wanted pyro fly nerfed, in a lot of cases it in fact would be considered a buff.


    I just really think it is not fair to both the people, the person that uses the pyro fly is they disable something not that useful or the opponent if it is too important, if you could choose and it was only disabled for 2 turns it would be awesome.



    Mother1 -> RE: The robots (11/24/2013 10:49:14)

    @ Trans

    Yes a bot can be nerfed, however at the same time it has to be able to do what it was originally designed to do. All those nerfs and buffs you mentioned with bots were never done to the point where they didn't do what they were originally designed to do.

    @ Epic

    Please don't call me biased because I own this bot. Owning the bot, and using the bot are two different things. Next off here is a little food for thought. Those 3 moves you have that are maxed out only count as the first place slot. So if you have moves that share the same number of skill points that means it won't count as 1st, 2nd and, 3rd but only 1st. The next two moves you have with the most investment after these will count as 2nd and 3rd and if you have the rest of your moves with the same invest (1 skill point for example) that means all those moves count as 2nd.

    I have used the bot with my alt, and at first I thought the same way as you. That is until I fought several support builds, and saw it take out a skill with one skill point instead of the 3 that had 10. I looked at the description and came to the conclusion that skills that tie count as one slot not all three.

    So while those moves of yours are the most susceptible it doesn't mean those are the only skills that it can hit.



    Hellion Storm -> RE: The robots (11/24/2013 11:45:17)

    Maybe they should bring back some of the rares in slots so theres still a way for newer players to still obtain the cores even tho its slim. Stuff like founder armor can be left alone, but for stuff thats game changing I honestly think it should still be available to broaden build diversity. Trust me I'd rather be running firefly right now over any other bot so I could have a chance to disable bounty hunters and techmages.Poison bot isn't a really big issue. It's just that botanical hazard is the only viable bot outside of focus 5 builds.



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