RE: Small tweaks (Full Version)

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Cyber Dream -> RE: Small tweaks (12/8/2013 17:33:58)

Mercs should be able to use static smash with a sword. What could possibly be a con of this?




Ranloth -> RE: Small tweaks (12/8/2013 17:36:55)

Nerf in power, Swords getting too much of an advantage with their skilltree and rending Clubs useless - apart from current Maul. It was said a while back, using Swords will come in skill sacrifices, but in return, you get bonus stats and sometimes +1 more damage. ^^




Cyber Dream -> RE: Small tweaks (12/8/2013 17:39:05)

But how can you even compete with a sword with all these energy draining skills. I know they're cores that yuo could use but aren't they only a one time use?(I've never had an energy draining core).




Ranloth -> RE: Small tweaks (12/8/2013 17:57:29)

Sacrifice. You either go for build that doesn't depend on drains/returns (Sword), or go for the draining/returning skill (Club), but suffer from lower amount of stats (and damage). In the same way, Tech Mages have to make the same decision. Or Tactical Mercenaries who may ditch Frenzy and Atom Smasher (relying on cores for EP draining) and use a Sword instead, i.e. high Tech build with Surgical Strike.




Cyber Dream -> RE: Small tweaks (12/8/2013 18:16:16)

Ok, but how could a build that dosen't depend on drains possibly be achievable in a way that could win? A one time core isn't gonna do the job.

quote:

Nerf in power, Swords getting too much of an advantage with their skilltree and rending Clubs useless - apart from current Maul. It was said a while back, using Swords will come in skill sacrifices, but in return, you get bonus stats and sometimes +1 more damage.


So BH benefit from this?




Ranloth -> RE: Small tweaks (12/8/2013 18:29:30)

In terms of Energy drain/return, yes, BHs and CHs alike benefit from it. At the same time, they need Claws for their Ultimate and Poison skills - something which TLMs and Mercs do not require for the respectable skills. Or CheapShot vs. Double Strike, one requires Claws, and the other works with any weapon.




Cyber Dream -> RE: Small tweaks (12/8/2013 18:47:19)

Ok, so BH are based around enegry drain/return? Aren't all classes? Is giving every class energy draining skills the devs meaning of balance, Making every class alike?




Ranloth -> RE: Small tweaks (12/8/2013 18:57:53)

Not exactly based. It's just the way their skills were done. Some skills will be "shared" by all classes - these include: Heal, defensive buffs, Stun, Multi, and Ultimates.
Since cores were revamped (Energy cost) and passives turned into actives and were given Energy cost, the importance of Energy has went up, and a class lacking a way to drain and return Energy would fall back greatly - and not even cores would manage to make up for the difference.

Different classes, different skilltrees and different effects. See Static Smash and Assimilation? One deals damage but drains less Energy and scales slowly (Assimilation), and the other deals no damage or whatsoever and often will drain (and return) more Energy (Static Smash). At the same time, Energy Parasite serves the purpose of both and depends on opponent's current Energy + returns x1.5 of the drained amount to you - so, unlike other drain+return skills, this one prioritises Energy return over drain.

Similar comparison can be made with Venom Strike and Toxic Grenade! One is unblockable, doesn't require a specific weapon type, deals 70% damage on initial hit and has +1 more DoT (Toxic Grenade), and the other deals 85% damage on initial hit, has weapon requirement and -1 less DoT (Venom Strike). Initial hit makes up for the damage difference, but it can also be blocked. Different class and different requirements. Skills can be compared, but skilltrees require more in depth comparison.

Hope this makes it more clear for you! ^^




The Hidden Legend -> RE: Small tweaks (12/8/2013 19:52:31)

Trans, you drain the strength merc and he uses static smash on you. What then? The 85% penalty sounds good, but well it be enough? Keep in mind that strength merc is not bad even now.
Btw, you are welcome :)




Ranloth -> RE: Small tweaks (12/8/2013 20:08:54)

Keep in mind that Static Smash can be blocked. ;) With half-decent Static Grenade, or low level EMP (it got a buff), you can easily drain more Energy than they can return via Static Smash. A bit more difficult with Energy Parasite, but if they have just enough Energy for Maul + Zerker combo (before being forced to drain), then it can delay it for a turn at least - assuming you've started first and/or it didn't stun you.

Going back to my example, with decent Def/Res (around 30), their "new" Maul would deal around 15 damage at most, and have a chance to stun. Compared to now, they'd lose 15% damage + 20% defense ignore, which alone would account for bonus.. 10-15 damage, but blockable. In return, it allows any build to take advantage of Merc's Stun skill, and gives them an unblockable Melee attack - which is difficult to abuse for bonus damage.

Only worry is having one skill which Mercenaries would have, that requires you to use a Club - Static Smash. Whilst its power is definitely worth sacrificing a Sword for a Club, it really makes it a bit... poor. Perhaps, someday, Double Strike will be replaced - if Maul was to change to "Sword or Club" - and get a fancy effect, or something, like CheapShot - which is locked to Claws as well.




The Hidden Legend -> RE: Small tweaks (12/8/2013 20:40:30)

Blocks are luck, and you cannot rely on luck. Having a 39% (max block chance) chance or less to beat a strength merc seems unfair to me. A strength merc can easily regen 36+ with max static smash, and the merc can just throw on a few more points. As for bm, and their energy parasite, it wouldn't be a bit more difficult; it would be impossible. As for a merc that does not throw on a few more points, bounty hunters are the only ones that max out their static grenade. A 5f tlm would have to have a level about a level 8 atom smash or higher to take more energy than the mercs' own static smash. Don't forget that even if you somehow get the energy away, if the static smash hits then you are left with more than half your energy gone, and you have just used your' energy drain skill. Bm does not even have a chance unless the atom smash is blocked, and the MAX block chance is 39%. Any build can take advantage of maul unless they have a sword. Chances are that they will have a club because they have to use static smash ( it's too useful for them to not use it) static smash. This is all assuming that they don't go first and stun. Lol.




Ranloth -> RE: Small tweaks (12/8/2013 21:08:52)

quote:

Blocks are luck, and you cannot rely on luck.

quote:

This is all assuming that they don't go first and stun.

Did you know, getting stunned is also luck? And going first - you have a set chance but whether you do go first or not, is up to probability. We can still rely on luck, since Dex improves blocks and your chance to hit. Likewise with Support lowering the chance to get stunned.

My main point still stands - if you happen to drain their Energy before Zerker, it's good enough. Whether it's effective or not, it's not relevant because you won't be stunned at that point and the longer the battle draws out, the more chances you have to counter them. Stun + Zerker combo is no different from common Overlord + Plasma Rain combo - both can work effectively, and leave you near death. That's the gamble you pay with stun chances - chance to stun and gain a turn, or not stun and deal less damage (pure skills > stun skills).




The Hidden Legend -> RE: Small tweaks (12/8/2013 21:28:12)

Trans, I knew that getting stunned and going 1st are also luck.

"Whether it's effective or not, it's not relevant because you won't be stunned at that point and the longer the battle draws out, the more chances you have to counter them. Stun + Zerker combo is no different from common Overlord + Plasma Rain combo"

I disagree with maul and zerk being the same combo as overload and plasma rain. The merc will be hitting more damage than a dex tm after the combo, and will rage a lot faster. Using the new heal core will kill any chances for you to win unless you block. If a dex tm uses the heal core, they will be dealing a lot less damage after the combo, so the purpose the core is meant to serve is a lot less effective. The longer the battle draws out, the closer to rage the merc gets, and you simply end up with most of your energy gone.

"My main point still stands - if you happen to drain their Energy before Zerker, it's good enough."

How is it good enough? You will end up with two thirds of your base energy gone.





DeeUnderstander -> RE: Small tweaks (12/8/2013 22:17:12)

as a merc who dislikes str builds i think making maul unblockable with a damage penalty would bring a nerf to us 5 focus builds. using it because it does good damage is more useful then hoping fora stun. sometimes a stun happens and but its a high risk high reward move.




Ranloth -> RE: Small tweaks (12/8/2013 22:49:24)

I see. The only reason why I'd want Stun skills to not have any requirements, is the equality - nothing else. I'm fine with how things are right now - one of the reasons why Overload is better than Grenades (damage wise) is the Staff requirement, so it's appropriately compensated. Likewise with Maul, which has defense ignore instead as well as scaled stun chance - to compensate for being blockable too.

I've explained my reasoning behind it, but don't want it to sound as if it was a necessity and something that should be done ASAP.




Remorse -> RE: Small tweaks (12/9/2013 7:57:44)

Alright trans here is my input, Overall I like a lot of the changes though some I disagree with, and some are good in concept but small things let it down in my opinion.

quote:


Long-term changes:

[TLM] Replace Field Commander with a new debuff, which works in almost the same way as Omega Override (core).

Debuffs opponent's highest stat including stat boost from your weapons, excluding debuffs applied.
Improves with Dex to provide better synergy for Dex builds (blockable skills + Stun Grenade only)
Weaker than Smoke/Malfunction to compensate for 4-in-1 debuff; maybe -4 less base in comparison to Smoke/Malfunction, which is roughly 1 damage/defense point difference.
May leave Support builds a bit lackluster.



I agree switching field commander for some sort of debuff is a good idea, however I don't like it being the opponents highest stat, I like my strategy fixed not variable making it the highest stat makes it too easy and pretty much a too necesary skill to afford not to invest in unless the power is so low it's not use full at all.
I am only just OK with the omega core because of this logic and that is because the power is so low.

My alternative off the top of my head, a direct skill de-buff as in it lowers the power of all attack skills that deal damage by a certain percent not including cores, robots, gun striking, auxes, skills that use a normal strike are not effected as in assimilation or blood mark for example, it also only reduces the bonus weapon damage from skills that increase strike damage such as double strike, massacre etc. In other words in no way does it reduce strength of the basic strike just the skill bonus damage.


quote:



[TLM] Re-work Blood Shield to fit Omega HP scaling and to be more efficient, compared to Shields and Armors.

Perhaps 1 HP : 1.5 Res ratio, so for +5 HP spent on Blood Shield (Level 1), you'd get +7.5 (8) Res in return.
Fits with weaker debuffs and slower HP scaling in Omega, and is on par with Shields and Armors which last a turn or two less but give a bit more Resistance instead.

Great idea 100% support


quote:



[TM] Swap and replace Bludgeon with Fire Scythe, and in place of Fire Scythe (Tier 4), introduce a new defensive skill "<name here>" which reduces incoming damage by x%

Starts at 5%, goes up by 2% and then by 1%, for up to 15% at Level 10 - and returns 1% of incoming damage (rounded up) per level - starts at 1% and caps at 10% - as HP. Energy cost similar to Shadow Arts. Lasts for 3 turns.
TMs have horrid defensive synergy, although, they are good on the offense but only Casters can excel in defense, not other builds.
HP return would be raw damage, before any defenses are calculated - so if total damage dealt is 60, you return % of it as HP.
Fire Scythe is a good substitute for Bludgeon already + more effective on tanks, and not mentioning it's unblockable + undeflectable.
Support requirement, to prevent abuse from Casters that could loop it efficiently.


Completely disagree tech mages have sufficient defensive skills to fit their identity, perhaps you have a little bias on this matter as the class you play as often feal like it lacks in defensive skills, but I assure you this is not the case it is arguably even with every other class now that mercs and cyber hunters no longer have passive defense. Infact mercs have less effective shields then tech mages, plus you need to remember malfunction can be very defensive as well as it reduces all damage increasing with tech which includes robots which makes it great for the popular focus builds.

Also fire scythe should be directly replaced and keep bludgeon if anything were to change, fire scythe is a broken skill in my opinion it is almost immune to all counters except for maybe energy drains, just because it isn't powerful doesn't mean it doesn't have future abuse-able potential. Plus I think all standard damage is silly all sources of damage should have some way to improve it so it can equally be used to counter it.

quote:


[CH] Put Malfunction from "improves with Support" to "improves with Dexterity Technology".

Gives them a bit better synergy with skills, especially Plasma Grenade + wouldn't be overpowered with Tech abuse because only one skill works with Tech (Plasma Grenade) and EMP is considered a defensive skill.
Synergy with Tech could be better + Focus as well, albeit not as powerful as BH's.
Indirect buff for TM's Malfunction - being able to counter CH's Malfunction.
Could leave Support a bit weak for them, since only Defense Matrix would improve with Support.

Disagree Cyber hunters have nice synergy with support as well and taking it from malfunction would harm that, if it is a buff they need then they should look elsewhere perhaps they could give them technician instead of plasma sheild since it would improve emp and plasma grenade similar to how BHs get reflex boost to boost stun grenade and multi shot.
Just cause plasma shield is unique doesn't mean it's good for balance some skill should overlap in balance if it is literally too hard for the devs to come up with balanced alternatives.

Or give them a new style of tech buff which instead of improving with dexterity improves with strength perhaps.


quote:


[BM/Merc] Re-work Intimidate to reduce all incoming damage from weapons by a fixed %'s.

Weaker than pure reduction of Strength, which affect Primary and Guns, to compensate for weakening Auxes.
More powerful on builds that abuse Strength and/or Support but would have a cap for damage reduction, to prevent abuse.


I like this idea though i could be tweaked a bit.
An alternative buff I can think of is allow it to reduce 1 focus for every 10 strength reduced, for the 3 turns, allowing intimidate to be a strength and focus counter rather then just strength.


Short-term changes:
quote:


[All] Take out the Maul requirement (Club) and Overload (Staff), so each class will have access to Stun skill without being forced to a specific weapon type.

Gives a bit more freedom for TMs and - especially - BMs, and Mercenaries would also have an incentive to use Swords - instead of Clubs.


I am iffy on this one, yes flexibility is good, but I also feal classes are becoming too similar especially with all these energy drains and regains given to each class.
Though I wouldn't object if it were to happen.

quote:


[BH] Alter Static Grenade, by lowering its drain but buffing return to 75%.

It's meant to be an effective source of Energy, but not too strong either.
Furthermore, remove synergy with Tech, perhaps by making it improve with Support or fixed values (scales with level).

I support any nerf to the skill though I would prefer it be given some form of cost such as a HP cost.


quote:


[BM] Tweak Energy Parasite to be more effective, not necessarily effect-wise. Just lower the damage penalty it has, since it's dependant on opponent's current Energy and takes 3 turns for full effect.

I don't object to this idea as I also feel it needs a buff but I think it could be buffed in a better way,
For example make it reduce and return the same energy from the 3 turns in only 2 trusn so the oppoenent has less time to use up all their energy and make the skill more or less useless.

Or perhaps make it calculate on the opponents current health rather then energy so the opponent has less control of the effect of the skill, plus it gives a counter to high hp builds for blood mages to use if they wish.

quote:


[BM] Buff Fireball by putting it on the same scaling as Plasma Bolt.

It's essentially useless for BMs, even ones abusing Strength. It needs a small buff to make it useful for players with Staves, which lose out on some stats and one damage - compared to Swords.
Wouldn't be easy to abuse due to limited Energy pool and lack of passives to abuse it with.

Supported for the same reason you suggested it.


[CH] Buff Static Charge, to ignore 50% defenses for the Energy return only.

Makes it more efficient for Str-less builds and on tanks, whilst still dealing damage.
Supported, great idea, I like the idea of making this skill less STR dependent.

quote:


[CH/BH] Reduce Energy cost of Shadow Arts, from +2 per level to +1 per level, for up to +20 Energy cost at Level 10.

It also has Support requirement which wouldn't make it a cheap but effective skill.

Supported though I think it could do with a better buff to make it more unique to the other shields, I think it should be changed to stay active until you receive damage for a single turn and then increase the amount it defends by a high amount since it is only used on one attack, this makes this skill a counter to builds that require high spikes in damage and allows people with good timing strategies to use this more strategically rather then being a generic shield.

quote:


[TLM/TM] Buff Battery Backup, by +2 or +3 Energy at most.

It's fine as it is, but perhaps a bit low at certain levels.
Shouldn't exceed +40 Energy at Level 10 for Lvl 36 players.

Only supported if assimilation gets a nerf, The synergy with these skills is far to strong to justify buffing battery.

quote:


[TLM/CH/Merc] Reduce Energy cost of Armors by -2 or -3 Energy, to fit costs of Shields, which have similar power level.

Supported

quote:


[TLM] Buff Frenzy by up to 5% at all levels.

With recent weapon damage reduction and Strength progression adjustment, few months back, it was indirectly nerfed.
Also, with Static Charge buff, it kind of falls behind, and isn't as effective.
It would also provide nice synergy with Blood Shield!

Supported.

quote:


[Merc] Make Maul an unblockable Stun skill. (may need small animation + name change)

It'd retain its scaled % chance to stun, but the defense ignore would be removed.
It starts off with lower chance to stun than other Stun skills, but gets higher as you train it.
Weapon damage got lowered, so overall, even with high Strength, the damage would be lower than you would deal with Grenade/Overload with the same amount of Dex.
Mercenaries have a few too many blockable attacks, and the variety is quite limited (cost:power).
Further explanation in post #23.

Disagree, it will make merc STR builds much easier to abuse as they have a high source of unblock-able damage plus with combinations with risk-less rage and and blood commander could easily make this abused. Just because the other stuns aren't block-able does not mean this should be, balance should not be making classes the same, if anything variety would be better for balance.





Hope you like my feedback trans.





Ranloth -> RE: Small tweaks (12/9/2013 8:14:18)

About the TLM debuff - before yesterday, I've had standard Support debuff in its place and it didn't really get support from players (punny!). I'm open to feedback for that one - whatever it is, as long as they may get a decent debuff, so I thought Omega Override-esque would've been good. But, I'd want it to improve with Dex, so they have some working Dex builds as well. ^^

I won't try to argue when it comes to my CH and TM suggestion. I have L29 CH and my main was TM prior to Omega, and right now, I've only got L23 TM. I did go back few weeks back to TM, so find it really lacking, and that was before passives change. So, I will say that my experience is fairly limited at high-end level. I just never liked TMs when it came to their defensive builds, but that was a while back. It may be different now. *that's why feedback is good :3*
About the CH's "new" Malf, yeah, I've covered lackluster Support stat if it was to be changed so I'm 50/50 about it myself.

And about Maul - read few posts above. I'm aware of what it may cause and the (only) reason why I've suggested it. In fact, it's just above your post. Mercs have a lot of blockable attacks which also bugs me, but what can you do. -.- I'm fine with the way Stun skills work right now. ^^

I'll cross out one or two suggestions from the list, since I see how flawed they might be whilst you guys make fair points.




Remorse -> RE: Small tweaks (12/9/2013 8:21:22)

^ Mercs have bunker, surgical and axillary strike.

Making a un-blockable STR based skill usable with rage, is just BEGGING to be abused. Trust me.


I agree that TLMs de -buff should improve with dex, good idea, and I have given an alternative to the omega style debuff which I would never ever support.

A description of my alternative is this "Reduces the damage caused by attack based skills alone" As in it would not include strikes in the calculation of damage for any attacking skill.


You can argue that tech mages and cyber hunters are lacking and I won't necessarily disagree, just the way you buff them I disagree with.
Also if I count them all, I have probably made over 8 tech mages alts and I have never had trouble with their defenses, nor found their defenses skills lacking.
As for cyberhunters I am not sure as I have not tried them since the passive changes..




Ranloth -> RE: Small tweaks (12/9/2013 8:28:53)

Well, yeah, 3 unblockable and undeflectable skills but compare that to BMs or TMs - these have like two blockable attacks, excluding debuffs. That's what I meant by saying "a lot of blockable attacks".

Hm. But would your debuff be useless on classes that don't have such skills - say Caster TM would render it useless, or BM who doesn't rely on Bludgeon at all. Unless I misunderstood your suggestion. .-.

Also, my debuff suggestion would be fixed numbers - like Smoke/Malfunction. It'd only take the mechanics from the Omega Override, to pick the highest stat. Unless you don't support it regardless, then my bad. ^^




Remorse -> RE: Small tweaks (12/9/2013 8:36:49)

Some times we need to not compare things to other classes all the time, sure it's good to say a classes lacking in areas but you should not always look to other classes to see the standard or classes in the future will be almost the same even if the skills aren't technically the same name.



Il just say what my debuff skill would be like:


" NAME"

Description: "Reduces the damage of all attacking skills alone by a percentage for 3 turns" (I say alone because it doesn't reduce end damage for skills that incorporated a strike , it reduces the damage the skill causes alone without strikes incorporated if it is incorporated.

IMPROVES WITH: dex
REQ: none.


lvl 1: 15%


..


lvl 10: 30% ( EXAMPLE)



ANY attack skill is effected just not the strikes it uses to add damage to.


Core skills are not effected, though if it turn out to be relatively balanced then they could add skill cores to the debuff.



What I don't support about your debuff suggestion is the mechanic of picking the highest stat for the reasons I stated.




Ranloth -> RE: Small tweaks (12/9/2013 8:47:59)

Ah, so any attack that doesn't require you to use your Primary weapon and deals damage, will be affected, excluding cores? So, for example, Zerker wouldn't be affected whilst Plasma Bolt would, right? *examples make it easier to understand*

If so, that isn't half as bad actually. It'd be skill version of my re-worked Intimidate, which is also a defensive debuff. With the nature of TLMs and their skills, they are designed for more tanky builds. That's quite good. :D In a way, it'd be defensive version of Hatchling Rush - improves tankiness instead.
Although, I don't see what Dex would improve here though... %'s, right? It would have to be slow scaling, so it gives you incentive to invest in Dex but not give it a massive drawback if you decide not to go for high Dex build.

Would you mind if I link your suggestion in my thread? I'll link the posts directly, to avoid explaining it myself - since it's your suggestion. [:D]




Remorse -> RE: Small tweaks (12/9/2013 8:53:45)

^ Sure thing,

Also I intend for it to effect ALL attack skills, skills like zerker are also effected just rather then a reduction on end damage it only reduces the bonus weapons damage bonus the skill states, so in other words it doesn't unfairly lower STR's damage indirectly through STR based skills. It only effects the skill side of STR based skills if you look at them as having two components.

It also means that with the debuff STR based skills can NEVER be reduced to damage lower then a strike, where as if it included the strike damage in the calculation it could and that would be unfair IMO.

If hypothetically you had 100% reduction it would mean all STR based skills are essentially a strike. I hope that makes it easier to understand.


Also the dex improving should have low scaling as you said as it does use percentages.
Or if it can't be balanced like that then I guess it could improve with nothing (flat rates)
I hope you understand what I mean.



Feel free to word my suggestion how you like and correct my appalling spelling and grammar.




Ranloth -> RE: Small tweaks (12/9/2013 9:05:24)

Ooooh, yeah, I get it now! So it'd reduce % damage of fixed value skills, and reduce % bonus of skills such as Double Strike and Zerker by x%, right? XD

I'd assume that % reduction for %-based skills wouldn't be fixed percentage reduction, but lowering the bonus damage by x% of it -> +30% bonus damage, the debuff lowers it by 20% -> 20% of 30% = 6% -> -6% reduction, so it deals +24% bonus damage instead.

Quite like it, since it's unique and gives them a nice buff. Although, I'd say improving with Dex wouldn't be necessary but fixed percentages. The reason is, weapon and skill damage goes up with our level and we get bonus stats as we level up, so the skill goes up in power regardless - the beauty of %-based skills. :) *just noticed you've said the same thing, whilst I was typing my post*




Remorse -> RE: Small tweaks (12/9/2013 9:10:31)

^ Very true,
I have edited more explanations for the skill above to make sure you definitely understand what I mean.

And I agree now it should be fixed, I just felt you would want it to be dex because you stated that before, however you have convinced me it should be fixed and that your fine with it.


As for percentage increase skills it effects it essentially works like this, just ignore the "%" sign, so if the skills gives bonus 50% damage, you ignore the % so it would be 50 and reduce that by say 25% (from the debuff) so it would be a reduction of 12.5% (25% of 50) therefore making the skill deal 37.5% bonus damage rather then 50%







Ranloth -> RE: Small tweaks (12/9/2013 9:19:40)

Sounds good to me! Now, I'd love similar concept for CH's debuff - but instead of lowering damage, it would do that to their defenses, essentially making your skills deal more damage or debuffing the opponent so any incoming damage would be increased. Let me format it for sake of simplicity.


  • [CH] Replace Malfunction with a new debuff, which increases any incoming damage source whilst your opponent is debuffed. Doesn't improve with anything.
    • Works under the same mechanics as Mark of Blood, so your ally (2v2) can also take advantage of it.
    • Damage boost is applied after defenses.
    • Similar in power to TLM's alternative debuff (credits to Remorse) - since TLM's debuff is applied to total damage, whilst this one is after defenses (lesser boost).
    • Gives the class nice synergy with skills, and allows any build to take advantage of it.
    • Tech requirement to prevent abuse from offensive builds.



    How does this sound? :D Unique debuff skill (so nerfing one doesn't affect the other class), allows anyone to use it instead of specific build, and %-scaling makes it good at any level. Only downside is having one Support-improving skill, which shouldn't be that bad - TLMs have Multi and current Field Commander, but they aren't effective unless abused.
    Of course, the percentages would be lower than it's counterpart, TLM's debuff, because it would end up overpowering offensive builds a bit too much, i.e. 30% increase in damage + 60 damage Multi = 78 damage... A bit too much.




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