RE: BM balance (Full Version)

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Altador987 -> RE: BM balance (12/2/2013 20:03:53)

that's the point, make them use all of their mp, most other classes need a decent amount of mp to win and for a long duration



Exploding Penguin -> RE: BM balance (12/2/2013 20:07:27)

Problem is they use it on useful skills. Also, given the amount of energy static grenade and static smash removes, getting hit by one and then using energy parasite won't bring you near close enough to what you lost, nor will it lower the opponent's energy to what they previously had either, particularly if they decide to smoke, pull out bunker, use MoB, etc...



Altador987 -> RE: BM balance (12/2/2013 20:16:59)

like i said i think it's a strategy skill more than anything else, not something to just instantly regain mp or steal mp...not to mention i would assume that one would have used parasite before they were emped specifically for that purpose so that once emped the opponent still loses some mp before getting to just use their mp again



Exploding Penguin -> RE: BM balance (12/2/2013 20:34:44)

Even if it's used for strategy its numbers don't compare with other skills.

At max level, energy parasite will drain 15% per turn and restore 150% of the energy drained.

So, for some more informational math:

0.85^3 = .614125.

1-.614125 = .385875, or approximately 39%.

.385875 * 1.5 = .5788125, or approximately 58%

So when you use a maxed out energy parasite, IF the enemy does not use any energy at all they will lose 39% of their current amount (Which in most cases is probably not gonna be their max energy of 60-65), and you will gain 58% of their current energy, yet again, IF they don't use any themselves. Overall this move is garbage at draining energy, especially considering you're gonna get more like a 20-25% drain instead of 39% since the target will use skills, and therefore only recover around 30-40% instead of the 58%, if not less. Also, I often find myself using it when their current energy is around 40, making this really not that effective.

When you think about it, 39% of the enemy's partially-consumed energy is not that much, and 58% back may seem good, but in the end will just get drained by something like static grenade as you gradually get the energy back instead of getting it all back at once. Also, since this move is like a debuff, it's amazingly easy to counter and requires no prediction on the opponent's side. You're really gonna get way less than the 39% and 58%.



Altador987 -> RE: BM balance (12/2/2013 20:41:37)

but eventually with this said both of the opponents run out of mp and neither skill is worth using which then leaves them to what they can do without said skill, even if a bm can't use a certain skill neither can his opponent ex: a bh steals 40 mp, he's only getting back 20 and if blood parasite is in effect he's probably not going to be able to do anything with it, and seeing parasite is loopable you can continue to keep their mp down, not adding the other cores



Exploding Penguin -> RE: BM balance (12/2/2013 20:53:29)

I hate to sound biased but as a BM myself I can say that energy parasite tends to do squat after 1 turn of being effective, and if it works for 2 turns it really has a 90% chance of being useless on turn 3. Even if I predict static smash, static grenade, assim, or battery backup and use it the turn before the opponent recovers EP, it still is only effective for at most 2 turns.



Altador987 -> RE: BM balance (12/2/2013 20:55:31)

by all means be biased bm is one of the only classes i dont have so while i'm debating with you i am by no means telling you you're wrong (actually so far you're the only one who's given solid reasoning as to why it's so useless)



The Hidden Legend -> RE: BM balance (12/2/2013 23:19:03)

altador, ill give an example. A merc has 62 energy and goes first. They bunker you. You have 62 energy and heal for level 1 heal. Aux/bot you. You use parasite. It takes 5 and gives u 7. They atom smash. They have 55 energy and you have 20. You use ur energy for maybe mark of blood. They lose about 8 and u get back 12. They bunker you. You generator. Last turn for energy parasite takes 2 and gives you 3. They generator and have almost max health. You do whatever but cant kill them becuz obviously you have not been attacking them. They have enough energy for heal and u maybe bludegon. they aux/bot. You cant heal yet and rage. they heal. they have max health again and easily finish you off. that is one of many many examples off what constantly happens.
And as for both opponents "running out of energy" they can steal urs then use it before parasite takes it. that ends up with both opponents out of energy except u lost yours and they healed or did a powerful skill. Maybe parasite really is balanced and is just weak compared to other skills. But whatever the case, its a terrible skill and eithe rneeds to be buffed or every single energy skill nerfed. No matter how much "strategy" you use it will always be bad. Go bm and try for urself.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: BM balance (12/2/2013 23:28:09)

I personally can't call a skill balanced if every other similar skill is better/equal to it by large amounts, and that there are virtually no skills worse than it that are similar.



Pemberton -> RE: BM balance (12/2/2013 23:44:37)

Energy parasite is strong if you actually use it at the right moments. If you don't know what you are doing, it is useless.
So overall, it is balanced. You BMs just got used to the attack attack attack deadly aim bludgeon bloodlust "strategy" and you can't even think of new strategies.



Altador987 -> RE: BM balance (12/3/2013 1:39:31)

@ hidden that's way too vague and even with that, the strategy that was implemented is silly you have no need to use parasite you only used 17 mp, not to mention it'd probably be more advantageous to use it after atom smash. i'm not interested in making a new character just to get 50k cred to switch to bm i'm still tryin to work my cyber first sorry. maybe if you give specifics it'll help me better understand as i have no idea what build the bm or merc is using not to mention cooldown seems to have been... overlooked in your example

@Pemberton if you think it's strong then maybe make a suggestion for how to use it better but stop with the attacks it does nothing for anyone



The Hidden Legend -> RE: BM balance (12/3/2013 8:38:03)

pemberton, it is not strong if u you use it at the right moments, it might take good energy for 1 turn only, possible 2, and you better hoe that they just used static grenade or atom smash becuz they only have 3 turn cooldown. lol what makes u say they cant think of new strategy? a bm is a player not a type of person and many just left the class. and no "So overall" it is NOT balanced considering how it is alot weaker than any other energy regen/drain skill. altador, if you didnt energy parasite with only 17 energy gone, after they auxed then atom smashed, if you do energy drain then they will just bunker and ur drain takes very little next 2 turns. bm is using 5 focus tankish and so is merc. cant make up a whole story......



Calogero -> RE: BM balance (12/3/2013 12:00:07)

Don't bother explaining to Pemberton, I sense a troll in his posts where he usualy says the attack attack bludg gun comments.
He doesn't realise some of the BMs out there, were actualy not on the bandwagon and were trying to use unique builds.

The way I use Parasite is I try to use as much energy skills as fast as possible, Intimidate, Reflex and Energy shield are the ones I use most at second turn, aux/bot on first turn.

I usualy use it when I'm either at no energy or at such low energy that a Static grenade drains pretty much nothing.
It's a good skill, has it got the no energy for opponent = no energy for you counter? Yes it has but I don't mind that really.
It makes it Not OP but balanced.
If they significly nerf the drain from the current energy drainers out there, more particulary Static Smash and Grenade then the skill
would be more usefull in general due to not having the fear of having a drain of +40. Why did I not include Atom Smash? Because in the end only Tactical Mercs have the skill, it only drains energy and due to them having Battery Back up, it's not that hard to use Parasite.



FrostWolv -> RE: BM balance (12/4/2013 13:29:42)

I agree with Calogero


Speaking about Pemberton, I have seen his rash and nuisance comments while going through different posts.

Well I have been BloodMage at the era of Tactical Mercenary Domination in Delta ...... and I came up with counter build to deal with that class

Now i am BloodMage and I am hard for both 5-focus BH and Caster TM ...........

Then why am I posting here? ......... because of the fact that Energy Parasite is really weak if compared to Static Grenade and Atom Smash. Its not like my opponent will allow me to leech their energy and its even not like I am forcing them to use energy .......THIS IS OMEGA and it has cores that costs energy and as far as I believe every one carries a synergistic energy-costing skill and energy costing skill that they use before his energy gets drained




Comparatively, either other energy drain and gain skill should be in par of Parasite or Parasite should be buffed to have a stand with other energy gaining/draining skills



...NDS... -> RE: BM balance (12/4/2013 17:19:09)

Hi yeah i think bm could deffo use assimilation instead of parasite .



Pemberton -> RE: BM balance (12/5/2013 0:58:56)

You need strategy and timing in using Energy Parasite. It will not be buffed into Static Grenade power because Static Grenade should be nerfed.
If you BMs can't even use a strong skill like Energy Parasite properly, then it is not the game's fault you can't.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: BM balance (12/5/2013 15:45:10)

quote:

Hi yeah i think bm could deffo use assimilation instead of parasite .


Funny thing is parasite hits 5+ no matter what, which is typically more damage than assim. Also, in general parasite cumulatively drains more and recovers more energy than assim does, it just does it over time. Overall parasite is numerically better than assimilation, it's just that parasite has a support requirement and takes 3 turns instead of 1 to get its full effects.

quote:

You need strategy and timing in using Energy Parasite. It will not be buffed into Static Grenade power because Static Grenade should be nerfed.
If you BMs can't even use a strong skill like Energy Parasite properly, then it is not the game's fault you can't.


You need strategy and timing to use the bunny bots. Oh wait, bunny bots aren't underpowered at all even though they can only be used less than 1% of the time effectively (many people would actually agree with this given all the 0-cost energy flow skills now). How about we nerf every single bot including yetis, azrael's borg, botanical hazards, botaniczl borgs, black abyss bots, and IA?

And as one of the few players at level cap who actually still cope with the weaknesses of energy parasite, I'm pretty sure that it isn't entirely a BM's fault if they can't get this skill to be as effective as other energy flow skills. And really, don't post if you can't prove anything with facts and you're just shouting out your opinion, because to be honest there's nothing to respect about people like you who can't even back up what you say with at least logical reasoning, let alone solid numbers.

quote:

Even if it's used for strategy its numbers don't compare with other skills.

At max level, energy parasite will drain 15% per turn and restore 150% of the energy drained.

So, for some more informational math:

0.85^3 = .614125.

1-.614125 = .385875, or approximately 39%.

.385875 * 1.5 = .5788125, or approximately 58%

So when you use a maxed out energy parasite, IF the enemy does not use any energy at all they will lose 39% of their current amount (Which in most cases is probably not gonna be their max energy of 60-65), and you will gain 58% of their current energy, yet again, IF they don't use any themselves. Overall this move is garbage at draining energy, especially considering you're gonna get more like a 20-25% drain instead of 39% since the target will use skills, and therefore only recover around 30-40% instead of the 58%, if not less. Also, I often find myself using it when their current energy is around 40, making this really not that effective.

When you think about it, 39% of the enemy's partially-consumed energy is not that much, and 58% back may seem good, but in the end will just get drained by something like static grenade as you gradually get the energy back instead of getting it all back at once. Also, since this move is like a debuff, it's amazingly easy to counter and requires no prediction on the opponent's side. You're really gonna get way less than the 39% and 58%.


Don't bother saying anything on the forums if it won't help anyone. You can go say whatever you want in-game, but the forums are more sophisticated, or at least I would like to hope so but the presence of some kinds of people really slander the forum's reputation.



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