RE: Balancing some skills (Full Version)

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The Hidden Legend -> RE: Balancing some skills (12/9/2013 18:15:30)

Altador987,
"not at all, why should all energy and or regain skills be on par with each other if all attack skills aren't?"

umm maybe because of the roll that energy plays, and how extremely important it has become since this update. Energy skills should be on par with each other because without energy you can't use any of those skills that you mentioned!!

"hunters don't have a single skill that is offensive that is on par with either mages nor mercs... period, in order for a hunter to do any damage with any skills either the opponent has to have low defenses or the hunter has to be able to cut through said defenses, neither mages nor mercs need to do that, while mages do have a malf the tech and dex build has proven that a lvl 3-5 plasma is all that is needed for 30 damage on someone with 24-29 tech, mercs were the same way with bunker and though recently have raised it higher i still don't see one with a max anything,"

Before this passive/active update, nobody was complaining about bounty hunter barely doing any damage AND this was when other classes had their Passive Shields! Bounty hunters have a debuff called smoke. They also have venom strike. They also do damage with whatever build (strength/5f/support/dex (which does do good damage using two skills), and any other builds that I failed to mention) they are using. In addition, bounty hunter has amazing synergy. People say, "bounty hunter was never weak," when people ask for what class to go to, or when they are talking about balance sometimes. Just because a class has a skill that can do more brute damage does not mean that it's stronger than bounty hunter.

"a lvl 1 heal isn't very useful to a hunter especially not in higher level matches"

A level 1 heal can be pretty useful, depending on what build you are using, and what build your opponent is using even at the higher levels. You can also use mark of blood, or try a stun, or use a shield, etc.

"and since when was the idea supposed to be about stealing half of someone's hp? not to mention 29 being half of most opponents' energy is completely based on the opponent's choice not to add mp one can't base a skill off of whether everyone else will decide to invest in what that skill affects."

The idea was never about stealing half of someones energy. It was the amount of energy being stolen which is quite a bit considering that we are talking about this skill being on level 6.

"most merc builds with static smash have 23 str and in my opinion that's just flat out unfair for them to be able to steal that much with no investment while it take almost 100 in tech for a bh..."

You did not even state how much the merc would steal. I didn't calculate the exact amount that it would steal, but I am pretty sure that if it is maxed out on 23 strength, and a bounty hunter has static grenade maxed out with less than 50 tech that static grenade will take a good few points more. Also remember that static smash is blockable.

Lampur1, that is an interesting idea. :O




Remorse -> RE: Balancing some skills (12/9/2013 21:52:58)

Love the energy parasite change,
I actully prefer mark of blood working the turn you cast it as it allows you to use it survive a turn perhaps.

As for static grenade I like the change.

Though I think it should just have the energy cost of emp.
Same with static smash it should have the cost of atom.

This means you can actully use regains against BHs if you make sure they dont have enough energy to use it.




DarkDevil -> RE: Balancing some skills (12/10/2013 0:13:03)

also add energy cost to battery and assimilation so if you drain mages to the last point of energy they won't be able to regain it.

the concept is broken you can't make something pay energy to regain energy because the main idea of regaining energy is to counter draining.
end of point.



Altador987 -> RE: Balancing some skills (12/10/2013 10:02:05)

quote:

umm maybe because of the roll that energy plays, and how extremely important it has become since this update.


i don't really see what this has to do with anything as it hasn't become oh so important, they literally just tweaked the bh with the grenade, gave it a regain, made it 0 cost as a regain with a cost is counterproductive, made it a 3 turn cooldown, and then nerfed the amount you can take compared to the original emp

quote:

nobody was complaining about bounty hunter barely doing any damage AND this was when other classes had their Passive Shields!


this wasn't a complaint i was explaining to you that each class has certain advantages over the other classes, the hunters have always had their drain better than the other classes, all they did was put bhs on par with others and give them a way to actually regain mp

quote:

A level 1 heal can be pretty useful

Can meaning maybe and might

quote:

depending on what build you are using

a heal should be useful to anyone and everyone regardless of your build... that's why everyone starts with it, also you can't base skills on a certain build if you want to promote diversity in builds

quote:

which is quite a bit considering that we are talking about this skill being on level 6

i don't recall any complaints about lvl 3 bunkers critting and hitting 45 damage or lvl 3 plasmas doin 30 and maybe 50 on rage... so i don't see how lvl 6 is such a small number when it's only 4 from the max

quote:

You did not even state how much the merc would steal. I didn't calculate the exact amount that it would steal, but I am pretty sure that if it is maxed out on 23 strength, and a bounty hunter has static grenade maxed out with less than 50 tech that static grenade will take a good few points more. Also remember that static smash is blockable.


from 18-21 depending on defenses (mind you defenses are on the higher side)... 50 is double 23 so i still don't see where you're going with that... i'm aware that static smash is blockable what is your point, static grenade is malfable and if the opponent has very little or no mp the emp becomes useless not to mention static smash doesn't do a percentage of damage done as most would only receive 2 or 1



lampur1 -> RE: Balancing some skills (12/10/2013 13:14:12)

Not ever recruitment to energy regen skill ( battery doesn't steal so it will be a nerf and make it the worst skill ever.waste of a turn remember caster was the only build buffed
So the class was nerfed . Due to energy rec you will remove our best build and then you will only find bh in the game. :3 nerfing those won't fix anything its funny how no1 whines that bh is op but whenever another class gets op then they must be nerfed to the ground in 1 week.



axell5 -> RE: Balancing some skills (12/10/2013 13:23:37)

nobody whined, it was just the skill that was ruining the strategy of an oponent in only 1 turn



The Hidden Legend -> RE: Balancing some skills (12/10/2013 18:33:18)

"i don't really see what this has to do with anything as it hasn't become oh so important,"

Everything costs energy except for bot, aux, sidearm/strike. Energy is very important.... Try winning a fair (a somewhat skilled player actually knowing what they are doing, and that you and the opponent are the same level, and the builds/classes are equal, especially if both of the builds require a lot of energy) fight without any energy LOL. It has to do with everything! because static grenade steals energy, and returns energy to you.

"they literally just tweaked the bh with the grenade, gave it a regain, made it 0 cost as a regain with a cost is counterproductive, made it a 3 turn cooldown, and then nerfed the amount you can take compared to the original emp"

When they still had emp grenade, it would cost about 20 energy to use when maxed out? and it would take maybe 60 energy instead of 45 (45 being the amount of energy most high level bh take with the amount of tech that they have). Even though emp grenade would be taking 15 more energy from the opponent, you would be saving 43 energy with the current static grenade! (45 would give back 23 energy, and static grenade does not cost 20 energy to use when maxed out). As for the 3 turn cooldown, most fights would not involve a bounty hunter using that kind of emp on you twice in one fight (using it 3 times is never done), so the cooldown did not really weaken static charge when it replaced emp grenade. That is quite a bit!!



"this wasn't a complaint i was explaining to you that each class has certain advantages over the other classes, the hunters have always had their drain better than the other classes, all they did was put bhs on par with others and give them a way to actually regain mp"

They are not on par with other classes currently. They are stronger. Saying that the hunters have always had their drain better than other classes is like saying, "mercenaries armor was always better than other classes," because they changed passives to actives, so everything is changed up now!

"Can meaning maybe and might"

That is true...

"a heal should be useful to anyone and everyone regardless of your build... that's why everyone starts with it, also you can't base skills on a certain build if you want to promote diversity in builds"

I don't agree with your statement. It is a level 1 heal, and that does not mean that it should be useful to everybody. If it is not useful to you, then do something else with it such as cheapshot, or mark of blood, or shield, or smoke. You can simply max out static grenade if you feel like it is not enough, higher levels have more than enough skill points (some people even throw skill points onto something useless). It is also a way of getting back 17 energy, you not necessarily being it 0 energy. You may have some remaining energy right after being drained or something, and that 17 energy could give you the energy that you needed while at the same time stealing a nice chunk of your opponents energy. I never said that I wanted to promote build diversity, but maybe you were aiming the "you" at the devs. I am trying to make it more balanced, not promote build diversity. I don't think that everybody starting with heal makes that into a statement saying that heal should be useful to everyone. Some builds do not use heal, and it is not useful to them. You can also be using static grenade, and stealing that 34 energy (17x2) to prevent them from using it, or to counter an energy regen. Having a level 6 skill give back steal a ton of energy, and give back a decent amount is kind of op imo, especially considering the amount of skill points that a higher level has. You can max out static grenade, and still have a whole bunch of skill points to get a good deal of skill points into any other skill/skills.

"i don't recall any complaints about lvl 3 bunkers critting and hitting 45 damage or lvl 3 plasmas doin 30 and maybe 50 on rage..."

That is because they (tm and merc) spammed the crap out of tech, and have a 25% chance of critting, not a 50% or 100%. That was also their main way of doing damage. You also probably have crappy defenses if a level 3 bunker crits you with 45 damage, or a level 3 plasma hits you with 30 damage unless they sacrificed pyhsical defense to really have a lot of tech, and those were like 1 in 1000. You's exaggerating the 50 by a good 10 points, on rage a level 3 plasma would hit more like 40. People actually did complain, that is why tm was nerfed in 1 week. I will remind you that people actually did complain about tm right after this passive/active update as it seems you have forgotten. Before omega, plasma was nerfed by 8 points I believe? They made some changes to deal with caster tm, both dex and tech ones. Again, this was their only way of doing damage except for maybe a few extra points using aux here and there, but before omega it was always 3 even with aux....
A bounty hunter simply uses static grenade using any build, "humph!, build diversity....," and can still deal damage effectively using whatever attack (depending on their build).

"from 18-21 depending on defenses (mind you defenses are on the higher side)... 50 is double 23 so i still don't see where you're going with that... i'm aware that static smash is blockable what is your point, static grenade is malfable and if the opponent has very little or no mp the emp becomes useless not to mention static smash doesn't do a percentage of damage done as most would only receive 2 or 1"

LOL, and static smash is intimidatable! There is also assault bot and energy assault bot, if you prefer energy, purchasable from Overlord Guard and Mirv. They can lesson the efect malf has on your precious static grenade, and also your tech/resist which means less damage to your health. You would receive a LOT more than just 2 energy, considering that you said your static grenade takes 39 on level 6, even if you are malfed WITH a high malf. 50 is double 23, but how many people do you see going around with less than 50 tech? Static charge being blockable would mean that it would steal about 4....
If you don't see where im going with it, I am saying that because you said,

"most merc builds with static smash have 23 str and in my opinion that's just flat out unfair for them to be able to steal that much with no investment while it take almost 100 in tech for a bh...".



Altador987 -> RE: Balancing some skills (12/11/2013 1:14:41)

quote:

Try winning a fair (a somewhat skilled player actually knowing what they are doing, and that you and the opponent are the same level, and the builds/classes are equal, especially if both of the builds require a lot of energy) fight without any energy LOL


i fight as a cyber hunter i win unfair matches that are to my disadvantage and without the need of mp due to the lacking synergy that cyber hunter's are presented with. if a build requires a lot of energy that is a CHOICE not a requirement just like choosing to use a build that makes using a lot of mp difficult


quote:

They are not on par with other classes currently

can you explain how they aren't as we obviously disagree

quote:

Having a level 6 skill give back steal a ton of energy, and give back a decent amount is kind of op imo, especially considering the amount of skill points that a higher level has. You can max out static grenade, and still have a whole bunch of skill points to get a good deal of skill points into any other skill/skills.


i could steal more with emp at a lower skill, and 20 isn't a buttload of mp to get back it's enough for lvl 2 heal and like a lvl 4 (maybe) smoke

quote:

25% chance of critting, not a 50% or 100%


i... didn't say anything about 50 or 100... i wont address the rest of the paragraph as it's really just bias and accusation of over-exaggeration

quote:

your precious static grenade


lol well seeing as this shows where you are with this argument i won't really continue trying to change your bias even though i could argue each of your points down... but be aware i'm a cyber hunter first and foremost and i'm a lot more interested in equality for all classes seeing as i'm bored as a cyber, a bounty, a merc, and a mage... also no skill is "precious" to me however i will fight for a class that i believe has been completely balanced in order to continue onward in balancing the other classes



Remorse -> RE: Balancing some skills (12/11/2013 1:46:47)

@Altador987,
quote:


"not at all, why should all energy and or regain skills be on par with each other if all attack skills aren't?"




I agree with you, making classes the same if terms of energy skill sets (all having a regain and drain) is what has caused the current balance issue.


If energy is so important in battles then rather then giving all classes the same set, ruining variety and making classes become too overpowered in terms of synergy with their other skill set.

BH's did not need a strong regain, they NEVER did, and their balance before the static change proves that.


If energy has become constricted in battles due to passives becoming actives ETC.

Then why would it be a good idea to change a classes skill set potentially making them OP?

What should of happened is they should of increased energy scaling to 2 per stat point again and perhaps increase base energy.

Simple.



BALANCE IS NOT MAKING EVERYTHING THE SAME.


Watch this video to understand what I mean.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/perfect-imbalance



Also its better if skill sets are uncomparable, having different version of similar skills as in all having a drain and regain makes it easy for skills to be compared and make imbalances clear.

This is not the step for the game to go.

If you think it is please explain to me the shocking state of balance currently that NO ONE has been enjoying?



DarkDevil -> RE: Balancing some skills (12/11/2013 1:58:39)

neither being comprehensive nor using caps help here.

since every skill has an energy cost and every core has a cost this means every class must have a way to regain energy orelse there will be a "core advantage" or a "skill advantage"
if you are going to make bountys an exception of not having an energy regain then they should also have the exception of taking their passives back.
see exceptions doesn't really work so there shall be no exception.

the probem with static grenades is they are based on the bottom of the effect so it can't get lower without getting a buff.
therefore instead of nerfing it you should buff other skills (static charge , parasite) up to its power and also buff emp to be stronger than static , a 0.5 less tech on scale will be enough.
also for the static smash should be unblockable.



Remorse -> RE: Balancing some skills (12/11/2013 2:06:15)

quote:

If energy has become constricted in battles due to passives becoming actives ETC.

Then why would it be a good idea to change a classes skill set potentially making them OP?

What should of happened is they should of increased energy scaling to 2 per stat point again and perhaps increase base energy.

Simple.


Please read my full post,

This is all they need to do because passives are now actives.

They DON'T needs to change classes skill set to compensate for more energy costing skill, they just need to make energy more accessible.



DarkDevil -> RE: Balancing some skills (12/11/2013 2:14:55)

energy is as it is because some skills must remain counterable because its the only way to do it.
yes i am talking about supp mercs and dex mages.
they can fight back as they can regain energy which is what limited counter is for , which is why every class have a way to regain energy too.



The Hidden Legend -> RE: Balancing some skills (12/11/2013 7:34:54)

"i... didn't say anything about 50 or 100... i wont address the rest of the paragraph as it's really just bias and accusation of over-exaggeration"

You don't think that you are exaggerating? Well I think that you are. Why don't you get stats to back you up? How am I being bias? I am stating some facts. I never said that you said it was 50% or 100%; I said that it is 25% not 50% or 100% because they don't always crit. I was not trying to act as if you said it was 50% or 100%.
This is the paragraph you were talking about. How in the world is it bias?
"That is because they (tm and merc) spammed the crap out of tech, and have a 25% chance of critting, not a 50% or 100%. That was also their main way of doing damage. You also probably have crappy defenses if a level 3 bunker crits you with 45 damage, or a level 3 plasma hits you with 30 damage unless they sacrificed pyhsical defense to really have a lot of tech, and those were like 1 in 1000. You's exaggerating the 50 by a good 10 points, on rage a level 3 plasma would hit more like 40. People actually did complain, that is why tm was nerfed in 1 week. I will remind you that people actually did complain about tm right after this passive/active update as it seems you have forgotten. Before omega, plasma was nerfed by 8 points I believe? They made some changes to deal with caster tm, both dex and tech ones. Again, this was their only way of doing damage except for maybe a few extra points using aux here and there, but before omega it was always 3 even with aux....
A bounty hunter simply uses static grenade using any build, "humph!, build diversity....," and can still deal damage effectively using whatever attack (depending on their build)."


"i fight as a cyber hunter i win unfair matches that are to my disadvantage and without the need of mp due to the lacking synergy that cyber hunter's are presented with. if a build requires a lot of energy that is a CHOICE not a requirement just like choosing to use a build that makes using a lot of mp difficult"

Would you tell me your build? Maybe you could make a video of you winning an unfair match. Having a build that makes it difficult to use a lot of emp is nonexistent imo. I really have doubts as to you winning fair matches with a build not requiring mp. I have more to say on this, I will finish later(not enough time).

"lol well seeing as this shows where you are with this argument i won't really continue trying to change your bias even though i could argue each of your points down... but be aware i'm a cyber hunter first and foremost and i'm a lot more interested in equality for all classes seeing as i'm bored as a cyber, a bounty, a merc, and a mage... also no skill is "precious" to me however i will fight for a class that i believe has been completely balanced in order to continue onward in balancing the other classes"

I am obviously on the side for nerfing the static grenade... That's what we have been arguing about all this time. If you can argue each of my points then please do so, so that I can see why it would not be a good idea to nerf static grenade by 10 points. That's what these forums are for. I could say, " oh seeing where you are with this argument, I can argue all your points down, but I won't do so...". Ok, and I am a bm. I will fight against a class that I feel has been made completely op to continue onward balance with other classes.

"i could steal more with emp at a lower skill, and 20 isn't a buttload of mp to get back it's enough for lvl 2 heal and like a lvl 4 (maybe) smoke"

I said decent not a "buttload". I feel like 20 energy is more than enough, you are also stealing their energy.

"can you explain how they aren't as we obviously disagree"

I will probably answer that later as I have to leave right now. I will actually probably edit this some more, or finish up some things in a different post as I am in a hurry.



Altador987 -> RE: Balancing some skills (12/11/2013 10:05:36)

i could make a video but have no intention of it as i don't need to prove anything to you nor do feel like doing such simply to please you as your opinion and or doubts are really only relevant to yourself as far as whether a point is factual or not. As a cyber hunter any fight i have is to the opponent's advantage as cyber hunter not only has the worst synergy it also has the worst set of skills including static charge (let's face it's a skill that gives the opponent mp to steal and nothing more plus it's victim to anyone with any form of defense blockable or not), it was obvious you thought i was over-exaggerating hence my statement, and i wouldn't write what i wrote if it'd been over-exaggeration as i'm looking for balance and not estimates, honestly your "Facts" aren't so very factual but i'll let that point go as we obviously disagree and i'm not going to argue a dead point to the ground.

quote:

I am obviously on the side for nerfing the static grenade.


you and everyone else but so far the only arguments that say the grenade is so bad is that it has more control than any other class (rightfully so tbh) and that there's been a surplus in bounties... and all these people instead of trying to have their own classes fixed as the problems will STILL remain simply want to see a skill nerfed because it's "easy" which in my opinion isn't going to achieve anything other than a temporary "fix". my point is you're on nerfing the skill to ground which isn't balance, i've fought bloodmages and there are some definitely nice builds out there even against bhs and while i think their parasite could use a slight buff i think it could be slight just like the nerf to sg could be slight, not 10 points that's just ridiculous. i already gave you my reasoning for why it shouldn't be nerfed down to 10 but you haven't given much as to why it should other than "the skill is op"

quote:

I feel like 20 energy is more than enough, you are also stealing their energy.


to do what exactly lol, and yes we are stealing mp a the same time... we don't have another skill that'd allow us to do so hence the 2in1



The Hidden Legend -> RE: Balancing some skills (12/11/2013 17:10:44)

Imo, the skill is op because it takes 46 energy from the opponent and returns 23, is unblockable, has a 3 turn cooldown instead of anything higher which helps it too much considering battery backup has a 4 turn cooldown, and it still takes more than a max battery backup. Bounty hunter itself is not a bad class whatsoever, and adding a skill that good to it is just too strong.

"to do what exactly lol, and yes we are stealing mp a the same time... we don't have another skill that'd allow us to do so hence the 2in1"

You can do a lot with 20 energy..... what in the world is a lot of energy to you? If I say what you can do with it you will simply ignore it, and say it's useless. That 2in1 in itself makes the skill pretty strong.

"the only arguments that say the grenade is so bad is that it has more control than any other class (rightfully so tbh)"

Why should bounty hunter have more control than any other class, and even if all you read about static grenade says that, even if everyone uses one point, it does not mean that it cannot be op, and that people are just complaining.

I suppose this argument is over. Have a nice day. :)



Dual Thrusters -> RE: Balancing some skills (12/11/2013 18:14:36)

Heavily Nerfing Static Nade will lower the diversity in BHs. The only balance I see needed is:

- increase cooldown by one turn
- OR lower the drain, and increase the gain.

Instead of ruining one group of players, just make the other classes have better energy flow.



Ranloth -> RE: Balancing some skills (12/11/2013 18:25:15)

quote:

- OR lower the drain, and increase the gain

This. And perhaps slow down the progression if you're gonna keep it on Tech, or make it a little bit faster and put it on Support.



Altador987 -> RE: Balancing some skills (12/11/2013 18:41:13)

quote:

Why should bounty hunter have more control than any other class


i didn't really say it did i said it can as mercs and mages have better instant damage control... however the whole point was that the skill needn't be nerfed to the ground, the skill doesn't automatically take 46 as it's dependent on tech, being able to do a lot with 20 mp isn't really saying anything as weren't you the one who stated that for a certain skill to be a normal part of one's build it should be maxed... not to mention being able to use a skill doesn't make it useful at certain points in a match and that's a huge factor when using the grenade anyway. the fact that only one or two points can be made proves it's not that overpowered, i said 5 points taken would be fine however 10 would be too much i didn't say the skill was perfect (even though i don't see too much of a problem with the skill itself)


and thank you my day is going quite well ^_^ i hope yours has also been without struggle



Stabilis -> RE: Balancing some skills (12/11/2013 19:12:56)

Something that can be done about energy skills is make them independent of the target, especially the enemy, yes? I can bring this up all the time, but the difference between free energy skills like Battery Backup and free energy leeches like Static Smash, is that I have to wait for someone to use Battery Backup to use Static Smash from 0 energy. When skills become dependent on other skills to work, who is in control?



GearzHeadz -> RE: Balancing some skills (12/11/2013 19:59:27)

That is one of the points I have been trying to get across to people. Although I do feel a tiny nerf to static grenade is in order. Perhaps lowering the drain by 5-10 energy and keeping the regain.



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