RE: Overall-OP class balance fix. (Full Version)

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toopygoo -> RE: Overall-OP class balance fix. (1/18/2014 19:00:56)

@ mother1

agreed. although as you have familiarized me, i am sure rabble is still working on that feature as well. This would be a long term project, sop i imagine they would fix that before including this.

@ altador

i dont know where you got that "its only due to class hopping." if i fight a mage now, and then 3 times in a row agains them. i wish to have the same advantage every time unless i change my build... Again, it wouldnt make winning any easier for an actually OP class, because everyone would be teaming up on it... it would also work against people grouping to a single class for and "op build" because then they can be teamed up on with the system... i dont know where you are getting this "winning" thing from because that is deliberately how i planned it out: it doesnt increase winning chances against everyone. im still not sure you understand the concept of this if thats the argument you are making...



Altador987 -> RE: Overall-OP class balance fix. (1/19/2014 12:27:34)

i'll make it simple... if this idea were to be implemented when all classes were at equal grounds and equal balance i'd be 100 percent for it as it would add a lot of variety but seeing as it's main goal is meant for attacking specific classes that happen to be OP due only to those powers above that make it so, i can not support the idea as that's not promoting real balance



toopygoo -> RE: Overall-OP class balance fix. (1/19/2014 13:52:18)

This idea would never have to be implemented if there was already 100 percent balance! why would you make a perfectly counterable stat for no purpose?



Altador987 -> RE: Overall-OP class balance fix. (1/19/2014 14:23:29)

to add variety and move forward, for example if one were to put said stats against cy hunters and tms then maybe one could focus moreso on dex strength and support and a new build altogether. what's the point of adding the suggestion to balance ED if eventually the classes become balanced? the point of a balance forum is to achieve balance not make fixits for an unbalanced system that doesn't get rid of the imbalance it only hides it and then classes are stuck with the same boring and wacked out synergies and stats.



toopygoo -> RE: Overall-OP class balance fix. (1/19/2014 15:02:24)

the only way to achieve proper balance is by implementing equal counters to all skills, available to everyone.
as long as there are cores like platinum's pride, that will no longer be available to other people, its not just classes that are the problem. And the level dispersion among battles is also a huge factor, as well as luck.
These things are what make EpicDuel what it is, you cant just remove them to "achieve balance" instead, counter measures can be taken to equally nerf/buff all other classes by players will.

Simply changing some numbers in classes doesn't mean players wont find new combinations that work the the changes. These classes have been out for 2+ years, and the was never a time when they were properly balanced, if that is saying something. And then suddenly we come to the realization that it may not just be the class, just the combinations some people have with classes and cores, and wow the whole look at it has changed. However you should stil be able to gain an advantage of them by your own selection. No one would force players to team up against mages, or Bh's but that is what logic would dictate would happen if people take advantage of this implication.

The only real way to create a "balance" would be to ensure the following:
all hunters beat mercs, all mercs beat mages, and all mages beat hunters (in any combination of this)
That is what "balance would be. you have a 1 win, 1 loss, and 1 50/50
when they threw in the 3 alternate classes this balance had no possible way of existing any more and that is why the current balance is so wonky. this type of |"counter" system ensure that everyone has a potential individual win, and some lower chances, or 6 equal chances, or however you feel it should be distributed. It gives more freedom for builds as well, because you will find a much more even dispersion in the classes: people will switch to what they think has the least disadvantage.

again, none of this is guaranteed to happen, but as it seems now, and history shows: neither is "perfect" balance



Drianx -> RE: Overall-OP class balance fix. (1/19/2014 15:39:40)

Man, I'm sorry I couldn't make you understand before,

but your suggestion sounds like, instead of letting two boxers fight a boxing match by the rules, you equip them with machine guns instead. And worst case scenario is when you equip only the less talented one with a machine gun.



toopygoo -> RE: Overall-OP class balance fix. (1/19/2014 15:58:00)

did you even read the first post?
dont you see how small the effect of this would actually be per person?
the idea is that overall, if the player base teams up on one class because it is truly OP, then that class would lose value, because everyone would be fighting to weaken it, and it wouldn't be able to effectively counter every single other class.



Drianx -> RE: Overall-OP class balance fix. (1/19/2014 16:18:20)

I can't take your suggestion by the numbers, because they are untested.

I'm sorry you didn't get the point of the boxers' example.

You want to give an unskilled player with whatever build the power to take out an OPed build, therefore removing the need to fix balance in the first place.

I agree something must be done to diminish the overall importance of an OPed build, but not the way you suggested.



toopygoo -> RE: Overall-OP class balance fix. (1/19/2014 16:22:56)

holy moly...

no...
giving an unskilled player these advantages are like incerasing their block.deflect percentages.. its all hypothetical. you dont know if it would actually help or not: it would vary from build to build, and class to class as well. something like this MAY close the gap between 1 level difference players, if one of them has maximum on the their opponents class, adn the other invested in something completely uninvolved.

The increased rage gain, would (per battle) not help more than 0.2*100= 5 additional rage points per 100 damage dealt. its not a huge deal, it just gives a minor advantage

the number arent tested but they can be calculated... This wouldn't have any effects on luck factors, only tangible numbers.



Altador987 -> RE: Overall-OP class balance fix. (1/19/2014 18:09:48)

quote:

The only real way to create a "balance" would be to ensure the following:
all hunters beat mercs, all mercs beat mages, and all mages beat hunters (in any combination of this)
That is what "balance would be. you have a 1 win, 1 loss, and 1 50/50



aaah okay, no you see balance is having a 50/50 chance of winning with each and every match it's not about what class beats who that's not balance at all, with balance you give each and every person a chance to win against everybody, sure a certain class may have a heightened advantage over another class but balance makes it possible to still win.



toopygoo -> RE: Overall-OP class balance fix. (1/19/2014 18:51:24)

have you never played rock paper scissors? cause that game seems pretty damn balanced if you ask me.. and oh look! it follows the exact same concept!
but also like i said, after the newest classes were added, this idea was discarded, but that is more or less how balance was achieved first.

and as of now, no classes have any hieghtened advantage over each other: its one or two classes being better than the rest due to synergy and abilities.



Altador987 -> RE: Overall-OP class balance fix. (1/19/2014 21:23:43)

sigh well this is obviously not rock paper scissors and just because it worked before doesn't mean it can work now with 6 classes and yes i'm aware of that last statement that's the POINT but i'm done trying to prove my point as it seems you're only interested in seeing it from your point of view which is very narrow-minded



toopygoo -> RE: Overall-OP class balance fix. (1/19/2014 21:38:15)

because you keep applying it to impossible tactics and methods, and trying to incorporate it at a point in time when it wouldn't be necessary... the purpose of this isn't to give advantages to people over lower levels during a balanced period, but rather tallow the player base to team up on a single class, and to reduce class hopping, and nerf a class manually, rather than waiting 3 weeks for a balance update...

you seem to be the one to try and misuse any new form of implication in the game... and it doesnt work the way you are suggesting. read over the number, and do calculations. that will prove that what you are trying to reach, wont work, except by classes which lose too frequently as it is.



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