A change to how strike works (Full Version)

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Mother1 -> A change to how strike works (6/12/2014 13:38:05)

As it works now strike is the only move that has no cooldown and can be used without consequence or cost. However the way it works now is that it works with strength. This alone already gives strength an advantage none of the other stats.

However if we were to change it so strike doesn't improve with strength but improve with nothing, this right here would be a indirect nerf to strength while indirectly buffing the other stats. Why because then strength will no longer have a move that is free of cooldown and can be used every turn without problem just like Dex, Tech, and Support.

While this won't 100% balance the game it will be a start to helping put all the stats on more equal footing in a sense.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: A change to how strike works (6/12/2014 13:45:31)

While I don't 100% back this I would like to hear the balance team has used their balance tool to test this and if it works then yes I could totally get behind this style.


Now if Strike is losing it's Strength improvement and solely using Weapon damage what would you do about Sidearm damage or would you leave that as is



Mother1 -> RE: A change to how strike works (6/12/2014 14:03:38)

@ Owa

Sidearms I would leave as is. Why because unlike strike this has a cool down just like everything else. Strike is the only move without cool down and can be used repeated when everything else is on cooldown.

That is what gives strength builds such a huge advantage in battle. They can just keep using that strength in strike until something else comes out of cool down where as dex, tech, and support doesn't.

Take away that advantage and this would help tone down strength builds by a lot since they won't be able to output so much damage when all their other moves are in cooldown.



Dual Thrusters -> RE: A change to how strike works (6/12/2014 18:51:12)

So what damage are you suggesting? 400 damage at level 40?



Mother1 -> RE: A change to how strike works (6/12/2014 19:17:14)

@ dual thrusters

Right now it is 350 at level 40 at max so that would be the max amount you would get.



King Bling -> RE: A change to how strike works (6/13/2014 4:53:43)

Mother1 if you really want to start reducing strength abusers, then first you need to reduce the dex abusers, since without strength ( I mean to say with your suggested idea) THE DEX ABUSERS WILL BE LIKE BEFORE, THE BEST THEY WILL RULE ALL LEVELS DESPITE OTHER CLASSES AND WHAT ABOUT THE TACTICAL MERCS???? THEY GOT ONLY A GRENADE AS AN OFFENSIVE ATTACK!!!! DONT YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, IF THIS IS IMPLEMENTED THEN ALL THE TACTICAL MERCS WOULD BE FORCED TO MAKE A 5 FOCUS BUILD ONLY WITH SURGICAL AS THE ONLY WEAPON!!! THINK ABOUT IT AND RECONSIDER



Dual Thrusters -> RE: A change to how strike works (6/13/2014 12:13:10)

@king

While I don't fully agree with this idea yet, remember that Tlms still have a variety moves. I don't know about you, but I've never seen a Tlm rely on spamming strikes. 😐



lionblades -> RE: A change to how strike works (6/13/2014 13:33:19)

quote:

I've never seen a Tlm rely on spamming strikes.

L.40 STR TLM poison build with Celtic sword. All they rely on is poison and strike lol.



Rui. -> RE: A change to how strike works (6/14/2014 13:58:30)

quote:

As it works now strike is the only move that has no cooldown and can be used without consequence or cost. However the way it works now is that it works with strength. This alone already gives strength an advantage none of the other stats.


Girl .. we do not have 10000000000000000000000 energy for skills or cores ok.. strike is all we got !

Average energy needed for 2 vs 2 .. Smoke 200 Aux core to break shield 140 .. gun force 175 Heal 250 Mark 250 weapon core 120 armour core for platinum 120

Else we gotta go dex abuse mages where little energy does huge damage.

Ed is messed up ! Seriously messed up !

God bless this game .. I am outta here



Combatoid -> RE: A change to how strike works (6/23/2014 23:08:13)

This is no way meant in offense, but I'm against this. Logically, if you're hitting your friend with a stick, it would hurt more if you have more strength. If you're using a strength build, you don't only have to sacrifice defense, but you sacrifice your damage on other skills(generally, as there are some exceptions) and your Aux, which balances the instant advantage out. Just saying, but if this was applied, it would legitimately only allow 1-2 builds to exist..



xzkamityx -> RE: A change to how strike works (6/29/2014 18:14:40)

quote:

This is no way meant in offense, but I'm against this. Logically, if you're hitting your friend with a stick, it would hurt more if you have more strength. If you're using a strength build, you don't only have to sacrifice defense, but you sacrifice your damage on other skills(generally, as there are some exceptions) and your Aux, which balances the instant advantage out. Just saying, but if this was applied, it would legitimately only allow 1-2 builds to exist..


depends on if you hit him with an oak stick or a cedar stick



Teserve -> RE: A change to how strike works (7/2/2014 14:43:05)

quote:

Logically, if you're hitting your friend with a stick, it would hurt more if you have more strength.


Why make certain stats logical (for instance, STR) and others not? Logically, DEX would make you more agile and improve your dodge chance (while iirc there is no such thing as a complete miss in ED, a block is close enough so this makes some sense). But in EpicDuel, DEX also makes you more able to withstand blows (the equivalent of being beefy if we are making analogies to real life). So how does it make sense that you take less damage and dodge more?

My analogies aren't the best, but oh well I hope you get my point. :/



AQWorldsFarmer -> RE: A change to how strike works (7/8/2014 17:14:00)


Would this change also affect damages based on weapon damage? Such as bludgeon, berzerker, and deadly frenzy?



Remorse -> RE: A change to how strike works (7/8/2014 18:08:50)

Improving with nothing again will be another step back for variety and creativity.



I remember you liking the idea before mother,


Of strike having a stamina cost( Stamina points), the catch is, you will always have enough stamina to use strike per turn because of the same or higher amount returned per turn.
However if you chose to use strike what happens is you use up stamina meaning there is less next turn for moves that use stamina such as cores (if it were to be implemented)
What this means is it won't be free, and it will be needed to take into consideration when planning strategy.


This benefit/potential good use of stamina is only one of many thing this feature could potentially fix/improve, some of which include high energy constraints.



Teserve -> RE: A change to how strike works (7/9/2014 22:00:10)

@above
But what if you want to save your Stamina and don't have EP? Perhaps a "Pass Turn" button? (excuse me if I misunderstood the concept you outlined)



AQWorldsFarmer -> RE: A change to how strike works (7/9/2014 23:11:07)

^ or a regerate stamina instead of a pass.



Dual Thrusters -> RE: A change to how strike works (7/9/2014 23:17:01)

Stamina Points? Percent Based defenses?

Well ok...if we were to base it off AQ then the normal attack would cost no EP allowing your SP to slightly fill up from the amount you gain per turn.



Onlythestrong -> RE: A change to how strike works (7/10/2014 1:04:32)

@mother1 (devin here) removing str for strike wouldn't just weaken strike itself it would weaked all of skills and skill core such as static smash,metro shower,blood commander,double strike and even more.




Ranloth -> RE: A change to how strike works (7/10/2014 1:31:55)

Implementing Stamina Points would mean they will have to rebuild the entire database again. If they were to do that, why not just fix the root of all issues whilst they are at it? Rebuild an entire game, basically, and if they do that, these Stamina Points wouldn't be necessary either. >.>



Dual Thrusters -> RE: A change to how strike works (7/10/2014 1:44:02)

@onlythestrong

Well she isn't suggesting to remove strength. Just that Strike would have a flat value and all the moves that work with it still act on strength.




kittycat -> RE: A change to how strike works (7/10/2014 3:51:14)

But if strike receives a flat damage value, then it can serve as an indirect buff to those builds that don't use strength such as DEX builds. You don't want dexterity tech Mages to be doing 400+ overload damage and deal a good amount of damage when using strike.

My suggestion is to change strike damage from default 100% to 85% + (focuslevel*3)%



Onlythestrong -> RE: A change to how strike works (7/10/2014 7:33:17)

@dual thrusters I never said she is suggesting to remove str I'm saying if strike isn't improve with str all the skills that is base on it get weaked a lot such as double strike or metor shower



Mother1 -> RE: A change to how strike works (7/10/2014 12:30:31)

@ onlythestrong

Read the thread primary damage when you strike will not be improved with strength. But I never mentioned other moves that would work with strength taking this blow. Strike will work based on weapon damage only and not the strength boost it gets. However other skills such as bludgeon and massacre would still get that bonus. This goes for cores as well.



AQWorldsFarmer -> RE: A change to how strike works (7/10/2014 17:07:06)

^ Thats what I was asking in the beginning. I now support the idea, but I think there will be some flaws in it. Like all impliment, there is always something everyone forgets about.



Remorse -> RE: A change to how strike works (7/11/2014 9:26:11)

quote:

Implementing Stamina Points would mean they will have to rebuild the entire database again. If they were to do that, why not just fix the root of all issues whilst they are at it? Rebuild an entire game, basically, and if they do that, these Stamina Points wouldn't be necessary either. >.>



This is not true trans,

When the implemented rage did they have to rebuild the whole database?
No, they didn't.

They added a increasing/decreasing bar without the recreation of the game so why would adding stamina points be much different?



Yes a lot more things would have to be changed then compared to rage but essentially they just add a new bar with a fixed gain system, and change the cost of cores to SP, and give free costing skill a cost of SP.


As long as the amount everyone regains in stamina per turn is cheaper then the cost of strike in stamina then strike can have a stamina cost as well.




The main changes I see is copy the code used to code energy costs and give it to stamina, then give things requiring stamina a stamina cost.


The won't have re do the whole game at all.

Keep in mind that a lot of the things that will be gaining a stamina cost currently don't have a cost at all, so it's an adding feature at it's core not a rebuild feature.


Lets not forget that cores were originally free when they first become actives then soon had to be given a energy cost as a band aid fix for abuse and applying major constraints on energy, changing core costs to stamina would then be considered a new feature rather then change because as it stands cores don't fit having an energy cost, especially because certain classes are better at energy manipulation making them automatically having an advantage in the usage of cores. (I believe core actives should have equal opportunities among all classes rather then better opportunities for those that can regain energy better)


And it will fix many issues at the root with a variety enhancing and solid full time fix rather then a temporary band aid fix that never works forever, and sacrifice variety needlessly such as this proposal by mother.








If any one has questions about stamina points and how it could fit into ED I would be happy to answer them in a PM so this topic does not go fully of track.


Thanks remorse.



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