Hidden Loses Aftermath (Full Version)

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Remorse -> Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 2:21:33)

Hey guys I wanna discuss the hidden loses change a while back now,

It has been some time with it now and it seems like many of it's "benefits" appear to be non existent. (Not suprising as I never thought they would work anyway)



According to the players who supported this change it was meant to,

-Improve variety
-Stop build hopping
-etc.



It is clear to me even before the lose change that this wouldn't be the case and now we can all see for themselves, people are always gonna switch to the builds that provides the most wins and the whole lose change was a band-aid fix to cover up the fact variety was small but that's because counter-play and balance is poor not because people can see loses.


Another thing the lose removal has done is taken down people incentive to try and win, now people would prefer just fast wins rather then high win ratios thus lowering variety further.

Another thing this does that if epic duel was to greatly enhance the variety and balance some of these changes might not be apparent in the battle field if people don't have the high incentive to win, so why would people chose high win rate over fast wins?




What do you guys think of the change?

Has it actually provided the benefits you hoped to you?

Or was it surprising that it didn't?

Or did you always expect it wouldn't provide any of the proposed benefits?



Also how could we get a compromise and perhaps return loses visibility either partly or fully?
Maybe we could only show the win lose ratio in battle rather then out of battle as well?


Discuss.




Daph Duck -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 2:38:45)

I think that removing losses didn't really do what it was meant to, you can still see/guess what builds have good win rates just by looking at someone's win count. Even though I personally like to keep up a good win rate despite that no one else can see it, it does feel like a lot of my opponents don't even try to win and I see someone saying "kill me fast" at least once a day. But although those reasons are a part of the issue, I feel like one of the bigger reasons that they chose to hide losses is because a lot of younger players are popping up on ED and they bully other players/get bullied about having a lot of losses, making players want to quit. In my opinion a simple solution would be to have a checkbox option in your settings to disable/enable your losses being shown in public.



Remorse -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 3:01:34)

^ Hmm

That is also a good solution,

Though they could just be bullied for not showing their loses,


How about you can't see loses in battle but you can see them out of battle?

Or maybe they are only visible to friends/faction mates?



If the issue was people see what builds have high win rates then they could keep the factor of not showing win rates on the leaderbaords as that provides no advanatge.



Mother1 -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 3:03:42)

Actually one of the reasons why people wanted loses removed was because of immature players who tormented them about their records thus making them feel bad. In that aspect this was a success. However, in everything I don't think so.

People still build hop, and always use the build that will give the most wish easy.

Why? because for most winning = fun.

If you aren't winning you aren't having fun.

It has always been a known fact that most players would sooner follow and copy builds to get win rather than be creative at the cost of losing. Has been that way for the longest and as long as the game remains as it is this won't ever change.



Remorse -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 3:05:03)

^ In that case making them visible to friends/faction mates would be a reasonable change would it not?




Mother1 -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 3:13:34)

Actually both your suggestions are good ones.

Daph Duck's can be the full out setting while the one you suggested after my post could be an in between setting. Like of like how the security on in game houses are.

Private = what it is now
Semi private = your suggestion with my post meaning only friends and faction members can see
Public = anyone can see your record.



Remorse -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 3:15:08)

^ I do like that idea.





Noobatron x3000 -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 3:18:04)

Losses need to stay hidden if you ask me

Recently it became apparent my latest 40 is forever taunted because its only a hero , I have another 40 commander with well over 12k wins . It just gets old , keep em hidden.



Remorse -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 3:34:46)

^ So you are getting taunted for having not enough wins?


Even still I would prefer it if you gave rebuttle to the suggestion of options of seeing loses not permanently back like it was.






Noobatron x3000 -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 3:37:58)

I just think its a bad idea people are angry at this game for many reasons as of omega the more ways they have to attack the more they will do so.

Showing losses is giving them a weapon, and with balance as bad as it is your punishing the creative few more then the mindless masses by showing losses.



kosmo -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 4:04:22)

With losses removal and expecially win ratios removal, the playerbase has even less knowlage and skill, so yea, it served it s propouse.Even if you copy a build, you can t really know how strong it is if you re just copying it.



Pemberton -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 7:54:54)

It definitely did not increase build variety lol...



King FrostLich -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 8:41:58)

quote:

Improve variety


What does a statistic of wins/losses do to improve it? You're hiding numbers, not builds because if they did then that would be called hiding stats, not hiding records.


quote:

Stop build hopping


Records =/= Builds being used. If there was an ability to retrain,(which there obviously is) why is build hopping still rampant?



Honestly, I did vote for wanting to hide losses and I am still happy today that it is hidden. But what I don't understand is why people think it will encourage more variety. How can hiding losses(which is just a number) improve variety in the sense that more builds are available? It's simply because people base records on builds that are being frequently used without thinking that the retrain button is there. My answer is quite broad but you get the point.



Digital X -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 8:58:01)

Just want to go over something that's been picking at my brain.

quote:

According to the players who supported this change it was meant to,

-Improve variety
-Stop build hopping


Now given that the losses and wins were hidden from other players viewing, how would this improve build variety and/or stop class/build hopping?

The player could have tried dozens of builds variants and been every class before the change, yet still show a decent or poor record. I fail to see how this would prevent the aforementioned two changes.



Remorse -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 13:02:55)

^ Hey man you are preaching to the choir,


However it is a stretch on my memory but I'm pretty sure the thread which ultimately lead to this change occurring, said something about loses stop people trying new things because they may lose more often or something like that, it also says something like people will be more inclined to stick to the class they are rather then to hope if loses do not matter.



Of coarse I don't agree with this and never have,


This is why I think they should bring back lose visibility or only partly bring it back in the form of choosing to have it viewable or not, or perhaps only viewable to friends and faction mates.



Gold Shock -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 13:17:20)

I feel like I lost a sense of accomplishment with the removal of losses, some of ous actually worked HARD for the ratio we gained. I think it's a shame there is not even a option to show losses .



Mother1 -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 16:11:04)

As pointed out before the staff's chain of thought was this.

Removing loss = less torment on players due to bad records = not being afraid to test new builds = more diversity due to less stress.

However as I pointed out before the common mind set between most players is the following

Winning = fun

If I am not winning I am not having fun.

So while the first part did come true with the less torment on the masses due to their losses not being shown the rest of it wasn't true.

While it made build hoping to a flavor build a bit harder due to percents of top players not being shown it didn't stop the build hopping. It didn't help diversity either because most as I point out would rather be a sheep and win rather than being unique at the risk of getting loses.

Sad but true.



Variation -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 16:29:11)

@Gold Shock: Yeah, I know the feeling. I strongly believe we should be able to decide whether our losses show or not. This is a PvP game, hiding losses so some players are happy is a horrible idea. Most of the players I know are very ticked off that their full records aren't shown anymore. I know players with 10,000+ 2v2 wins that have over 70% records and now players with more 2v2 wins than them appear better because percentages don't show anymore. Now it's all about quantity instead of quality which is sickening. In short, I fully believe we as players should decide whether our full record shows or not. Now all I see are players who have never bragged before when losses were shown(they had bad %s) bragging that they're so good because of how much wins they have, knowing very well no one can see their losses.

That is what I think of the changes. Hopefully someday we'll have the option to show our full records, like many of you have implied in your posts.



Mother1 -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 16:35:56)

@ Variation

there is no good without the bad sadly. When it was the other way around people were mocked because of their bad records due to many immature players which also made people quit.

I feel the staff would rather have everyone feel good about themselves without being mocked rather than having some immature people mock player due to bad record (some willing choose to get these because they refuse to use flavor builds)

This is just my take on it I could be wrong you know.



edwardvulture -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 17:45:41)

In the pvp battles I did for the Lionhart chain, I did notice more build variety. I think you are addressing what it is like for legendary players. The thing is, legendary players only play to win, that is how they become legendary in the first place. There will always be players that just play to win and they will always copy the "best" builds. If there are no counters to the best builds, then it is a problem of balance. I would rather have loses removed rather than hidden but that's just me.



lionblades -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 18:55:40)

I agree with Remorse, Daph Duck, Variation (and everyone against this change). It did not help build variety at all. It just stayed the same, maybe worse, and removed a lot of competitiveness in ED. It possibly reduced build variety now that most players are going for fast wins not high ratio. Nothing changed at all. I asked Comicalbiker awhile back what was his win ratio for CH mass poison. He said about 60%. He said high ratio doesn't matter anymore and its pointless (because loss removal) if I remember correctly. Hiding losses should be optional.

@Edwardvulture
Of course you will not support this because I remember you were the one who gave the loss suggestion in the first place lol. Also, what level are you playing...if its not 38+ ofc there will be more build variety than L.40 players because more builds work at the level 20-35ish. It does not mean its from the removal of losses.



dfo99 -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/20/2014 23:23:21)

in my opinion the win rate need be showed only in daily lbs. but i agree with variation suggest of allow who want show him losses and win rate.



kosmo -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/21/2014 4:45:46)

The only real reason to hide win rates was to make it harder to find those overpowered builds that only certain players do, and that all the players used to copy in 1 day after they saw it s winning rate.Unfortunally getting into daily leaderboard has no point anymore for those who wanted to show how powerful they could be, but we have to accept this since the change is actually worth it.



The berserker killer -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/21/2014 10:23:45)

Sounds like they want to hide builds. I say GO FOR IT



Mother1 -> RE: Hidden Loses Aftermath (7/21/2014 11:22:28)

@ the berseker killer

The staff already vetoed this a long time ago for the following reasons.

1 They don't want players fighting blind as it removes planning to beat builds.
2 They want those people who can't find builds of their own to be able to find builds.

Plus If I remember correctly many people are against that for reason number 1.



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