Support compared to other Stats (Full Version)

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Darkforce832 -> Support compared to other Stats (7/31/2014 8:41:55)

I believe Strength, Dexterity, Technology, and even Max Health are fine the way they are right now. What needs a kick is The Support Stat and an incentive for high level players to actually raise there base Max Energy levels.

First i'll explain why Str, Dex, Tech and HP are fine:

Str gives players incredible power with near no downsides, high damage output, no energy cost, fast rage gain. Some downsides are blocking and deflections.

Dex gives players block chance, defence, and power to specific Skills.

Tech gives players deflect chance, resistance, power to bots, and power to specific skills.

HP gives players the amount the damage they can take in.

The four stats stats above give something needed for players. I myself focus on Dex - Caster build, and although str players and Mercs have massive power on strike attacks I manage just fine defeating them. I tend to lose more against Tech players or 5 focus players. That is why I even say not touch the Str Stat.

With the two stats Support and Max Energy, most players (at least at high level end game) only raise support stat to fulfill any requirements such as 5 Focus, or requirement for Skill usage. The players need a reason to raise Support without just meeting requirements otherwise its not really a Stat-Skill, just a berdone.

Max Energy stat for most players (at least at high level end game) tend to keep the stat as low as possible and for a lot of players, they never raise it at all. Again here for most they don't see a reason to, so it's highly unused.


Some possible solutions may be to have Support play a more significant role in rage gain, and critical chance. Those are probably most important to the players. As for Max Energy, i'm not entirely sure what can be done. Personally I think players keep it low is due to having energy drainers and energy gainers Skills. A suggestions iv'e seen was gives Max Energy players a damage buff to skills, but I don't think that would make balance fair.

Thread titled edited due to being vague. Please make sure that your thread titles indicate what the thread is about. Thank you. ~Caststarter



theholyfighter -> RE: On Par With The Others (8/1/2014 7:53:39)

What's your class?



Darkforce832 -> RE: On Par With The Others (8/1/2014 9:00:41)

Blood Mage, why?



Exploding Penguin -> RE: On Par With The Others (8/1/2014 16:04:15)

As a BM myself, I don't even see dex caster being nearly as viable as focus in the current meta, but if you say it works then I definitely believe you.

Anyways, yeah, support needs a buff to it. I appreciate how static grenade and lots of defensive skills improve with support, but it's still not enough incentive to invest in it. I think that support needs to have a much stronger impact on energy trades and they should probably introduce some new cores or change some current skills to improve with support in terms of damage.



Mother1 -> RE: On Par With The Others (8/1/2014 17:16:08)

@ exploding penguin

problem isn't support is too weak but the other stats especially strength and HP are just too rewarding. If a build can function and get a good ratio without a certain stat as well as the balance favors those stats why would anyone invest in a stat they don't need?

Even if support got a buff as long as strength and HP are more rewarding and not needed for a certain build to work they aren't going to use it. It is one of the reasons why I see many BM's complaining about the support requirement on Energy parasite and wish for it to be removed.



ffeeeee -> RE: Support compared to other Stats (8/1/2014 19:51:51)

Mother i agree

@Darkforce832 i don't completely agree that strength is fine because it is too rewarding as is.

1.Like you said it is block-able and defected
2.Incredible power
3.no energy cost
4.Can continually use it

Strength is more common in all classes skills and helps more skills thus being more effective

Str-16 strength skills (more or less) in total out of 72 class skills

1 out of 4.5 of the skills get better with str



Darkforce832 -> RE: Support compared to other Stats (8/1/2014 21:33:19)

"Str gives players incredible power with near no downsides, high damage output, no energy cost, fast rage gain. Some downsides are blocking and deflections."

As I stated above, I do realize the strength stat has a ton of up sides to it. Only reason I don't care if or not they update Strength is due to me being able to beat them in 1v1 fights fairly easy. Meaning to me that there are ways to beat them, and as Mother1 always says " changing this would change the flavor of the week." I pretty much see that happen now.

Yet at the same time I do seriously believe the Support stat needs a rework or something to make it more viable to players. I run a Capped 1000 Max Energy - Dex Caster build. Though I would like to see others at least raise there Energy by 100 by the time there level 40.


Some Suggestions I have seen:

Raising Max Energy Stat boosts Damage output of Casting Skills.
Support stat raising damage output of Sidearm 100% or split with 50-50 Strength and Support.

PS: Thank you to Forum Mod for changing thread name. Though this thread is for support and Max Energy.



ffeeeee -> RE: Support compared to other Stats (8/2/2014 9:47:45)

I see what your saying with strength, and the reason that why i think is is very good is because people who are legendary rank are upgrading the primary damage. This upgrade blows through any defense or resistance that i have.

On the topic of support i agree that is needs to be more viable because most support skills are related to defenses. If they were to have more offensive skills that got better with support i would like to think that more people would use it.
For energy:
Reasons why people don't invest in it
.barely any people have high energy because it just isn't that effective when there are better stats to invest to (unless your are a caster or has a build that demands high energy)
.bloodmage will take and regen more energy and there are a lot of bms out there
.people take and gain energy like there is no tomorrow Ex: generator, piston punch, energy shot , assimilation, energy parasite, etc
Unlike this phase people had to conserve energy because you couldn't gain energy unless that was part of your classes passive.

I would like to see people invest in energy, but at this point is isn't worth it.

I would support the support stat splitting the damage of the sidearm with strength by 50%. It might be too good in some cases like mercenaries.



Predator9657 -> RE: Support compared to other Stats (8/2/2014 10:09:25)

Support definitely needs a buff. It's lagging far behind most of the other stats (even EP has working builds which rely on high base energy).

As for HP arguably it could do with a slight nerf - maybe back to 10 per stat point instead of 12.5 - since the scaling is too good compared to the other stats (possibly increase base HP to compensate for the overall loss in total HP?).



The berserker killer -> RE: Support compared to other Stats (8/2/2014 15:26:29)

buff it, give it more stats on aux or something



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Support compared to other Stats (8/2/2014 16:28:50)

quote:

buff it, give it more stats on aux or something


I don't think this would work because then support would be broken in 2v2. Not only would you be able to nuke opponents and instantly burst them down, but going first enables you to go twice by the time your opponent has only gone once, not to mention that tons of really useful and strong utility skills such as intimidate, malfunction, or blood commander improve with support.

They need to buff support in a way that it's a direct counter and severely punishes to people who neglect investing in support.



Remorse -> RE: Support compared to other Stats (8/3/2014 13:17:44)

I still think this is the best idea: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21722994


Basically Exploding Penguins idea of making field medic a level 1 only skill that improves with support.


Support has honestly never been the same since it lost the ability to improve heal, I think once it does again it will be easily strong enough.



The beauty of it being only level 1 only also slows the potential of heal loppers being overly strong, Im sure support heal looping builds will arise again however with only level 1 heal and cores like hatch-ling rush I am sure it won't become broken.



Another thing it does is force builds to use support if they want a strong heal, giving great meaning to the stat, and giving a big and needed disadvantage to those that don't use support such as STR builds.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: Support compared to other Stats (8/21/2014 10:24:13)

Support still gives increased chance to go first, reduces stun chance, and increases crit chance right? I haven't played this game in a while.



I Underlord I -> RE: Support compared to other Stats (8/21/2014 10:30:51)

I believe Support now only affects auxiliary damage, critical chance, and first turn chance.



Mother1 -> RE: Support compared to other Stats (8/21/2014 11:18:28)

@ I Underlord I

It still affects rage gain as well. At lower levels I see support builds when they do come out rage just as fast as they did back when support was overpowered.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: Support compared to other Stats (8/21/2014 14:48:40)

I see, too bad it doesn't reduce stun chance anymore, but just curious. Why doesn't it say it increases crit chance and rage gain anymore in-game? It just says it increases aux damage and first strike chance.



Justingbieberfangirl -> RE: Support compared to other Stats (8/21/2014 14:54:09)

@Isaiaththemage
Because it is a bug which makes only the 1st two things show up when you hover your mouse over the stata.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Support compared to other Stats (8/21/2014 15:36:24)

A bug report not too long ago confirmed that we were all misled and support was never actually nerfed.

They simply changed the description of all stats to only be 2 lines long when you hover over them, and that cuts off a large portion of the support stat's description.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: Support compared to other Stats (8/21/2014 16:18:43)

Well then that should be fixed because that's really misleading, especially for new players.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Support compared to other Stats (8/21/2014 23:16:07)

Yeah, I think so too. I don't remember exactly what the resolution to that bug report topic was, but IIRC they don't plan on extending it to give the full description again.



Darkforce832 -> RE: Support compared to other Stats (8/23/2014 10:42:15)

Support effects everyone it did as before, critical chance, chance to go first, rage gain, aux damage and I believe support still affects stun chance.

I'm pretty sure last time I checked for every 1 support stat your opponent has over yourself the game takes off .40% chance to stun.
If the attacker has same or more support, stun chance is at regular chance. (can never go higher) so 30% for all stun attacks except, maul, cores etc.

I think the best option to make support on par with other stats is indirect damage buffing. So have support play a more significant role in rage gaining and/or critical chance/damage.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Support compared to other Stats (8/24/2014 2:17:20)

With the current meta of high HP and non-tank defenses, rage doesn't play as significant role as it should.

I think support difference between you and your opponent should also buff:

-Critical Damage boost. Basically, as you get more support not only does your crit chance go up but also your critical damage
-Rage Damage. Pretty much the same as the above statement.

There's also the option of introducing %-increase in damage like the old bludgeon and massacre, where it takes the damage you would have normally dealt and increase it by a % (for example, striking for 100 damage with a +50% damage boost would deal 150 damage) rather than just adding damage equal to a % of your primary's base damage. Here are some sample statistics that I came up with on the spot:

New critical hit statistics:
-Ignores 30% defense/resistance
-Deals bonus damage based off of your level. Formula: (([Your level] * 10) / 5)
-Max Crit chance: 25% (not including cores which can boost it past the limit)
-BEFORE calculating the bonus damage based off of level and defense/resist penetration, adds % bonus damage based off of what would have been done. Formula: (15 + 0.45*[Support difference])% bonus damage. As stated in the formula, the base is 15% and will never go lower than this.

New rage statistics:
-If the enemy has more support than you, then your rage attacks do 0.35*[Enemy support advantage] reduced damage before calculating defense/armor penetration
-If you have more support than your enemy, then your rage attacks do increased damage equal to 0.35*[User support advantage] instead before calculating defense/armor penetration.

Basically, the changes make crits less hurting to tanks, increases the max by a little, and adds a new % damage increase mechanic which will help support builds more than anything, and should compensate for the reduction in penetration for most other builds that host a decent amount of support.
The rage changes are meant to punish those who use the "raw damage" method of building rage where even if they lack support, they still build rage amazingly quickly by having tons of consistent damage (which would be called DPS in other games). In fact, I think a strength build could actually build support almost as quickly as a support build these days, especially the squishier and higher health ones which take more damage to gain more rage, and since they host less defenses, their opponent doesn't gain rage as fast.



noremako -> RE: Support compared to other Stats (8/24/2014 6:54:14)

@Exploding Penguin

I kinda agree

Strength shouldn't rage gain, otherwise Support is infinitely redundant. A weak weapon dealing a crit does at the most, equal damage to a strength weapon dealing a normal attack. 1 crit every 5 rounds vs consistently high damage every round, not a fair comparison.

Also, Support being a buff to crit is a redundant idea since any luck based stat is unreliable in practice and thus can't be developed as a strategy.

Support really needs to do something apart from probability effect.



Remorse -> RE: Support compared to other Stats (8/24/2014 7:05:17)

@ Penguin,

I also really like the idea of support improving rage and crit damage rather then just frequency.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Support compared to other Stats (8/24/2014 13:08:47)

quote:

Also, Support being a buff to crit is a redundant idea since any luck based stat is unreliable in practice and thus can't be developed as a strategy.

Support really needs to do something apart from probability effect.


This is very true, but it can't be denied that making builds very reliant on luck and frequent crits like the support builds from the old days were immensely fun to use.

I think someone was making a thread about removing the bonus robot damage focus gives and instead increasing the tech scaling as well as adding support scaling to compensate. That could be a solution.



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