RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Artix Entertainment Games] >> [EpicDuel] >> EpicDuel Balance



Message

edwardvulture -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (8/24/2014 16:18:42)

I'm not sure if I made this argument yet, but focus does not really have a weakness. Glass Cannon builds used to work on them, but then strength and support both took a hit. Right now, a 45 support resistance shield can negate all the defensive detriments from a level 7 malfunction. I cannot say that "not spamming" a stat is inherently a disadvantage in itself.

The problem with both strength builds and focus builds is the damage at no cost of energy. If it was possible to sustain damage with dex, tech, or support while investing in energy like what it was in the other phases, strength builds and focus wouldn't be a problem.



Remorse -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (8/25/2014 5:21:46)

quote:

Focus IS stat abuse. Lining up your stats to 45 does nothing for the variety or the good of this game. There is a fine line between stat abuse and creativity, and focus builds are on the side of stat abuse. You're implying all non-focus builds abuse stats. There is almost no sacrifice with 5 bonus now because we get to move stats wherever we want. Focus is one of the dominant builds right now, if we take it out, other builds are sure to fill the void. And logically, support and technology should be the sole stats that robots scale on. Your physical strength has nothing to do with robot prowess, and dexterity should not do anything for robots when there is already a technology stat. But ofc, this is just a small problem in the bigger picture of this game not having enough builds or skills or class distintions to appeal a wider audience and expand(this sentence is purely opinionated).


I agree with this exactly!

I find it extremely frustrating when people can't see how focus restricts variety.


Why does having rounded out stats deserve an unfair advantage no other type of build can enjoy?


WHY?

The whole concept is stupid, if it was to make rounded out builds complete with stat abuse builds then guess what the problem and solution was to decrease the power of stat abuse not create focus which has ultimately ruined ALL build combinations between a focus build and a classified state abuse build.




Please don't get me wrong here I am NOT saying remove robots..

Robots can technically add to variety but unfortunately the way they are improved restricts variety!







I just wanna put things into perspective, FAKE SCENARIO IN RED

What if this game was in a parallel universe and say rounded out builds (45 or more each stat style build) were the dominant style of build.

If the developers used the same tactic of adding focus then essentially what it would do is give robot damage to builds that only stat abuse.


So imagine you had 5 focus ONLY if you had one high stat and everything else was below a certain level to achieve this this high focus.

So basically you are now punished for having rounded stats and therefore wanna try and stat abuse,

However in this scenario, when you use no focus at all or are fully rounded stats aka 5 focus in the current system then your build is still competing with the 5 focus stat abusers,

That means the two build types that survive are the Completely no focus rounded builds or the 5 focus stat abusers nothing in between thus limiting variety.


hopefully that puts things into perspective and understanding that focus is a baind-aid fix and it should be removed and the core issue it was trying to fix (stong stat abusers) be fixed at the core properly.




kaierti -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (8/25/2014 6:10:50)

i guess one thing that there is no difference between focus 0 and focus 5. i mean when u have focus 5 build and normal build and when u have focus 0 build and str build. there is no difference. just only in criticals... need pay attention focuses. even tank tech mage focus 0 is stronger than focus 5 normal build player. my wish is that all must have focus 5 build



Remorse -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (8/25/2014 6:26:57)

^ Then while you are at it why not make every single attack in the game deal the same damage,

and make every class have the same skill so it's "fare"....


No let's not make everything thing 5 focus, lets remove the terrible feature.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (8/25/2014 21:41:57)

Focus does restrict variety, that is clearly obvious. But to say 5 Focus builds are OP is ridiculous, they are not OP at all and can be countered. My main and my alt are both 5 focus bot users, my main is a TLM and my alt is a regular Merc. What makes us different from other builds is that we do not excel in anything and we aren't really that strong without our primary weapon, our bots. Pretty much all 5 focus users happen to only use Infernal Android because of how powerful it is. But other than that, no one uses focus. All you see is high HP/Str BH, Merc, BM, and CH, 5 Focus Bot users of all classes (Infernal Android 80% of the time), or of course, tex/dech abusing TMs who spam overload and plasma rain and can use battery backup, assimilation, and sometimes even generator or piston punch to repeat the process. All of them are much worse than 5 focus users are for sure since all they have is their bot.



Remorse -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (8/26/2014 2:56:13)

^ Focus is not OP,

I never mentioned that.



The point is it restricts variety.


This is what should happen


-Focus should be removed, robots improve some other way.

-Diminishing returns on stats are removed

-Str improves primary damage at a slow rate from the very beginning

-Other Stats improve skills at a slower rate (from the beginning) if necessary to lower the abusive stats power.






Abusive stats have been managed the wrong way, they shouldn't be trying to discourage it with diminishing returns and focus, they should be toning down the power in a way that leave all build combinations viable.



And then to top of all these mega changes they should add more counter skills and cores to counter builds still strong that lack counters.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (8/26/2014 21:10:32)

quote:

'm not sure if I made this argument yet, but focus does not really have a weakness. Glass Cannon builds used to work on them, but then strength and support both took a hit. Right now, a 45 support resistance shield can negate all the defensive detriments from a level 7 malfunction. I cannot say that "not spamming" a stat is inherently a disadvantage in itself.


BC Merc wrecks every focus build in existence minus smoke BH because of the block chance. They just deal so much damage and gain rage faster because their damage potential per hit is increased, plus they heal any of the chip damage you attempt to deal to them while barely trying to survive with heal spams.



edwardvulture -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (8/27/2014 0:13:47)

shields don't work on bc mercs?



Mother1 -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (8/27/2014 0:26:32)

@ edwardvulture

Shields do reduce the damage BC merc's can give which reduces the amount of HP gain. There is also Intimidate, as well as heart attack and Azreal's torment which nerf the strength and percent directly. There is also the lionhart core which works for one turn as well as hatching rush.



edwardvulture -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (8/29/2014 19:49:56)

almost all focus builds have a very strong shield of some sort. How does bc mercs beat 5 focus builds. And are you in the context of the level cap, penguin?



Mother1 -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (8/29/2014 20:16:54)

@ edwardvulture

Several things have to come into play.

1) the person using each build.

Remember is a game of planning and while someone might have a build that is believed to be overpowered or too strong, if they don't know how to use it right and the other person knows how to use and counter their build the person with the Overused build will lose (unless luck factors help them.

2) Focus builds as it has been said before vary and many give up something to have 45's min spread across the board.

This means while they gain bonus robot damage from focus they are giving up the other powers they would get if they were an extreme 1 or 2 stat build. for example my focus build doesn't have really high defenses while strength BC builds have high attack. Those builds if i didn't use the right counters would tear through my defenses like hot butter scoring 200-300 damage per pop without luck factors.

3) Rage

Rage works well with BC strength Merc builds. Especially with players who have moderate or high defenses. They can build rage quickly and use it to hammer you if you don't know how to counter.





I Underlord I -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (8/29/2014 21:08:39)

quote:

Remorse wrote:

I agree with this exactly!

I find it extremely frustrating when people can't see how focus restricts variety.


Why does having rounded out stats deserve an unfair advantage no other type of build can enjoy?


WHY?

The whole concept is stupid, if it was to make rounded out builds complete with stat abuse builds then guess what the problem and solution was to decrease the power of stat abuse not create focus which has ultimately ruined ALL build combinations between a focus build and a classified state abuse build.




Please don't get me wrong here I am NOT saying remove robots..

Robots can technically add to variety but unfortunately the way they are improved restricts variety!

As has been mentioned earlier, Focus does in fact restrict variety, but only to an extent. Also keep in mind that this is its very purpose; variety is somewhat diminished in exchange for ensuring balanced stats, such that those appropriate levels of Focus at their character level sacrifice the opportunity to excel in one or more stats in order to be balanced and possess robot damage (again: jack of all trades, master of none).

Focus in no way provides an "unfair advantage," or even a fair one; defenses and damage output are both comparatively mediocre in compensation for having robot damage. The concept is great and it was implemented well (not initially, when Focus increased all damage, but I was on a hiatus during that period so I cannot comment on how devastating Focus builds were). As it is, players do not require a robot to compete; if they have one, there are several ones with useful specials that are unaffected by its damage. If you want to reference Legendary players with powerful robot and primary/secondary (and often tertiary) damage output as well as high defenses, the problem is Legendary ranks.

Focus does not "force" people to use it or to grossly abuse one stat. It is merely an option, one which many people opt to take, mainly because the idea of balanced stats is appealing to many players (particularly those who appreciate the use of tactics and strategy) -- the robot damage makes it viable.

I agree that Robot damage could have been implemented better: Technology should not affect it. ;)



Remorse -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (8/30/2014 2:43:58)

^ You don't understand my reasoning,


Please don't use the argument that focus builds aren't that strong or a variant of.


I 100% get that, but the point is that is irrelevant!




If stat abuse style builds are so strong that they can easily beat focus builds then that just means that abusive builds are way too strong in numbers.


Having balanced stats should be reward in it's own, it should ensure rounded capabilities, well adaptive to most situations,
If they need focus to buff it so that this is the case then that is pure proof that the core game mechanics are broken.

What I would prefer is if every style of stat investment were equal,

Stat abuse gave cool advantages but then had disadvantages in the areas the avoided to invest in, and people who invested stats more rounded had less major bonuses but also had less disadvantages.





What focus does however is it give a determined line on to how to do this rounded investment, and that is you either need 5 focus or you don't bother with it at all.

And this is how it restricts variety,

I'm not sure if you played in beta, but one thing I remember was multiple rounded style builds and strategies, all ruined due to the slightly stronger variant of 5 focus when they introduced it.




The point is they need to fix how stats work at their core, having rounded stats should be a viable style not need the help of any variety diminishing feature.

And abusive style stat builds may need to be toned down in order for this equal viability to exist.




Predator9657 -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (8/30/2014 7:07:23)

Focus does reduce variety and switching the robot damage bonus from focus to support would an awesome way to fix the fact that support is really lagging behind the other stats.

As for the argument "focus doesn't need to be removed because it's not OP"; with the correct scaling of robot damage with support, robot total damage will be pretty much the same; therefore there is no basis to talk about OP or not since in essence nothing is getting buffed/nerfed.

The only difference would be instead of sacrificing stats to have 45(+) in each stat for that extra robot damage you would sacrifice stats into support for the same robot damage. If this were to be implemented, Support would be a pretty balanced stat (roughly on the level of the other 3) and less people having 45(+) on all 4 stats = more build variety.



theholyfighter -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/2/2014 10:51:38)

how about focus improving with not just Tech, maybe support, and decreasing the focus limit. 45, 40……) and the coordinating bonus damage?



Remorse -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/2/2014 12:02:46)

^
I believe the idea is to have it improve with a combination of both tech and support.

Half and half would be logical.


So basically it required 8 stats in either supp or tech to improve robot damage by 10,

But because it comes from 2 sources it ends up being the same as 4 per single stat.




Then completely remove focus.


This will slightly buff support, and tech will stay about the same, while at the same time create opportunities for huge increases in variety.



Mother1 -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/2/2014 12:51:45)

@ remorse

Here is the problem I have seen with this as I pointed out to Edward. How many times have people said what you and Edward said "If we nerf/remove this it will increase diversity" Only for it to only shuffle flavor builds and people jump/copy the next flavor build?

In order for Variety it improve people have to want to be diverse and as long as the game is unbalanced, and flavor builds dominate the game (Focus 5. Spam builds Etc) We will never have diversity.

So please explain to me how this would increase variety and make me want to use different builds instead of just going to the next flavor build like so many other balance changes we have seen that said the same thing?




Remorse -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/3/2014 11:22:30)

^

Because focus itself is limiting the pool of similar build styles into one confined almost concrete layout by out competing all those similar style builds while having very little flexibility.



What I mean by this is say robots increase by support and technology combined,

Builds that get extra strength are,

-Support builds
-Tech builds
-Average builds with a tech/supp focus
-spam builds with a tech/supp focus
-High tech and supp combined builds
-perhaps builds with semi high supp/tech and high HP
-Perhaps builds with semi high supp/tech and high energy.
-etc.



Now lets list the type of builds that gain strength as it improves through focus

-Builds that have 45 in each stat....



Yes, their may be flavor of the week/stronger builds options in the first scenario, but at least other builds actually gain strength, focus doesn't help anything but itself.

And here is the thing, not only does focus not help other styles, it also reduces the viability of the other styles because their is a significant power advantage through placing 45 points into each stat, so why would a similar style build do any other way?
And this is why builds tend to go either the full way (5 focus) or not at all and perhaps spam a stat because a lot of the builds in the middle of this can not simply compete, so much so people have actually forgotten that these types of builds can and could exist just they become as illogical as say maxing out a shield because their is shiny stronger and easier version, 5 focus.



People don't even consider something like 3/4 focus style builds they don't spam, why is that?

Why should that style be so much weaker? Because the builds either side of it overshadow it, and nerfing the two sides should be done, not to switch the flavor of the week, but to put variety on an even ground.







Ranloth -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/3/2014 11:35:51)

What if Focus scaled per each stat point, so instead of making jumps from 35 -> 40 -> 45, it would give damage every 36 -> 37 -> 38 -> etc? The damage would be the same as it is now, just the in-between ranges would get a buff. This way, you can still have equal stats, but not necessarily 35, 40, 45, and so on. It'd actually increase the variety of build below Focus 5, because you wouldn't lose out on +40 damage due to one stat point difference, but more like -8 damage. (since one Focus = +40 damage, 5 stats, so 40/5 = +8 damage)

Also, what Mother1 has said. Removal will only cause some builds to shift elsewhere, and variety will NOT happen unless players themselves want it. Stat abuse is also a valid build, whether you consider it variety or not. So are balanced stats, and leans towards a certain stat or two. Only because abuse is easy, that still does make it a build of its own - in fact, Focus and Strength abuse are two different builds already. You can have Focus with heavy Tech lean (at cost of low HP), and that's another build, and so on. Of course Str abuse is rewarding, but that's because of rage (for the most part), and it's an entirely different story - because you cannot punish a build due to something else making it broken; it's nerfing something that may not actually need a nerf.



Remorse -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/3/2014 11:45:43)

^ Trans that could work,


Having it increase per stat would be a lot better providing it had no limit, the limit should be player determined in which they think their build should stop in order to reach maximum efficiency , not the limit because this is what is set and is also what is strongest. (because this is currently the issue with 5 focus)

If the strongest option is also the limit then their is a issue with scaling.

quote:

variety will NOT happen unless players themselves want it


If the objective of the game is to win, and if the game was more balanced in the fact that certain builds/strategies are good at beating others,

Then it is not the players fault, players go to what wins,


If the builds that win most can't be countered properly then it's the games fault.

If the game actually had VIABLE variety then players will automatically switch as the meta changes to counter it,

That is how it works, players don't stubbornly refuse to change this is silly logic and merely proof the GAME is broken not the players.



Ranloth -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/3/2014 11:53:42)

The limit would be players' limit. If they think this is too much, they just lower their stats and improve HP/EP/whatever. With that, Focus would get revamped entirely anyway, since the damage would have to be adjusted all the way from the bottom - so Focus could remain its own thing, Bots NOT improving with stats (Tech) at all - to provide equal damage for everyone, and easier to balance in the long run. (mind you, this is just my opinion :p)



Remorse -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/3/2014 12:01:36)


quote:

The limit would be players' limit. If they think this is too much, they just lower their stats and improve HP/EP/whatever.

Yes this is exactly what I meant.


Hmm this could work and would be much better then the current system,

IF

The damage scaling was slightly reduced due to not being capped at 45 in each stat.



But I still think it would be better if robots improved with a combination of Supp and tech,
as so many more build styles get benefited allowing for more potential viable variety compared to a build with a lot of rounded stats.



Though I do like this version of focus MUCH more then the current system.





Mother1 -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/3/2014 12:03:03)

@ remorse

That is a good one remorse. Not trying to sound condescending but I don't know how many times counters have been offered to varies seemingly overpowered builds proving said build wasn't overpowered only for people to stubbornly say "Why should I have to do X to be Y build?" Or "I shouldn't have to do X in order to win against Y."

This has been happening for the longest in omega, and I have seen some players who invest time into finding counters to some builds and are winning when others think it impossible. Said people even gave advice but most refuse to take it.

If that isn't being stubborn and wanting to force change than I don't know what is.




Remorse -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/3/2014 12:08:10)

^ Although this is getting off topic I will just add this,


The amount and effectiveness of these counters are so low that people giving advice,

More or less are just letting you know you can maybe have a chance against this build using this counter if you get lucky...

Counters should be strong and harsh,

They should completely shut down builds in an instant, but likewise using these counters should require preparation and a better strategy then your opponent,

And the person on the receiving end of a harsh counter should have multiple opportunities to avoid it,


This is what I would call healthy game-play as wins become determined bye wits, strategy, and out smarting and predicting your opponent.





If something works then, it works,
People don't refuse because they are stubborn, it simply just must not work well enough.

Of coarse I am talking on behalf of the total population and in terms of logical statistics.


"



Ranloth -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/3/2014 12:12:40)

quote:

But I still think it would be better if robots improved with a combination of Supp and tech,
as so many more build styles get benefited allowing for more potential viable variety compared to a build with a lot of rounded stats.

There's one reason why I find the concept of Robots improving with stats flawed: it benefits some builds more than the other. Nothing else. That simple.

Remember Casters with 140-150 Tech + Botanical Hazard? Or BHs with 100-110 Tech + Focus 5 (possible, with less HP)? Or maybe high Tech TLMs, just before Omega? Possibly Mercenaries too? And how about CHs, who don't really have a good Tech build - never did, really. As well as BMs prior to the recent Parasite buff - although, the issue with Parasite is the damage, or rather, the fact it was made unblockable (see Assimilation).

^ This is exactly why I like the Focus concept, and would rather Bots improved with Focus alone. Giving some classes advantage, over the other - when it comes to Bots - isn't really fair, is it? Balance is same as being equal, and that definitely isn't balance, not even by definition (since in-game balance is more-or-less subjective).



Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition
0.125