RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (Full Version)

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Remorse -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/3/2014 12:17:20)

quote:

with stats flawed: it benefits some builds more than the other. Nothing else.


Focus is still the same thing....

It benefits builds with rounded stats exclusively.. and rounded stats are still a build style are they not?
Just because it takes all stats to invest in it does not mean it benefits all builds it actully benefits only one style which is arguably worse then stat improved versions.

Having it improve with stats can be fine if the stats it's helping can use the extra help,


In this case support get's extra help and tech builds stay around the same as they do now because it is a combination!

Having high support and then low tech will only mean average robot damage,

And having both high supp and tech will mean you would of had to use a hell of a lot of points and suffer multiple opportunity costs.





Ranloth -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/3/2014 12:23:43)

Nope. Your suggestion is basically Focus but two stats. Mine, which would ideally remove Tech bonus from Robots, would be the Bot improving with all stats, but at an equal rate.
If we were to do it separately, so it improves with each stat individually, some builds would abuse the stat better than the other - imagine 100 Str and 100 Support being as good as 100 Tech and 100 Dex, in terms of Bot damage. Offensive power of weapons vs. relying on skills for damage. It would be one sided annihilation.

Focus is a funny concept after all. It works, but it doesn't. Removing it is just as bad as keeping it, but revamping it could fix it for both sides.



Remorse -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/3/2014 12:34:24)

quote:

imagine 100 Str and 100 Support being as good as 100 Tech and 100 Dex, in terms of Bot damage


I am imagining it and what I picture roughly is both those builds having about the same robot damage as a 4 focus build now.... which is hardly anything and arguable won't change anything.



Bot damage won't become viable for all builds... and the 2 you listed are one in which would have average-below average bot damage.

The fight you just listed compares VERY similarly now to a tank 5 focus versus a STR abuser. Both have advantages and disadvantages and not necessarily an annihilation at all.


Revamping it my help compared to the current situation but it still messes with potential variety.




quote:

Bot improving with all stats, but at an equal rate.



Do you mean you essentially robots to improve with nothing?

Focus does not make robots improve with all stats... it's improves with non of them and is separated as a own separate build style.







Mother1 -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/3/2014 12:46:00)

@ remorse

The point is that the defensive build would have to rely on luck to win this battle due to not being able to keep up with the damage output where as the offensive build can keep pouring out damage without limit not to mention getting huge amounts of rage due to the high defenses going against high offense.

So unless luck really plays in favor for the defensive build they will get destroyed.



Remorse -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/3/2014 12:53:06)

^ Lets exclude everything else for a second,

Making robots improve with support and tech would not change much at all in terms of the issue you just listed.

The only slight change is support has slightly more power, but support is also arguably weak right now.

And high defenses don't always need luck versus all glass cannons...

Perhaps STR but this is a completely separate issue, which I might add I think the need to fix as well and perhaps in conjunction with removing focus.





This point am getting at, is having robots improve with tech and support won't have too much of a change compared to know EXCEPT support will be slightly buffed.


And the high amount of variety that focus builds blocked are now potentially viable.



Elloisoul -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/5/2014 6:31:31)

I do not support , for Focus isnt really that much of a problem , i dont know what your guys builds are this game is a PVP game where its purpose is to beat up your foe who cares about creativity when it would cost me matches ( lost because some people make *Creative* Builds that arent helpful in 2vs2) but im fine with it if its against me because i will just simplu say yay free win and show them that your build is useless when it does not produce wins and FYI bots arent OP , Ive fought people who uses 5 focus bots with the way we can see the rage there wont any be *Surprises* for IA/GAMMA BOT ive easily taken them down as for that hawk and Defence breaker you simply make them waste their turn on heals by hitting them hard or stun or some will use Mana heal/Drainers , Anyway Results>Creativity



kosmo -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/6/2014 3:23:50)

-5 focus and defensive builds allow you to play slower battles and to have a full energy control over strenght builds and thats all you have to do to win.
-5 focus and defensive builds work alot better after rank 30-40 than any other strenght build (5 focus merc uses bc alot better than the str build with high ranks).
-5 focus and defensive builds offer more counter strategies and they re actually the hardest ones to use.
-5 focus offers variety, and it s a way to prevent stat abuse (imagine how op strenght or dex abuse would be without 5 focus).
-Ranks on bot makes infernal android very very strong, and it finally overclasses hawck used with strenght.

For all of these reasons I can t support the idea of remooving or nerfing 5 focus in any way.

Also I dont believe that support is such a useless stat, as many of you say.I cant think to a more succesful build than a 5 focus with the support to start and the ranks for damage.
The only usless stat is energy.



I Underlord I -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/6/2014 12:59:53)

Remorse, part of your argument is that one is expected to have either Level 5 Focus or Level 0 Focus at higher levels. The concern, then, is not Focus itself; rather, weapon damage and Strength (or Support) bonuses are more rewarding to the extent that Level 5 Focus is requisite to utilize robots for damage, unless one abuses Technology. Therefore, Trans' concept of revamping the system would both directly increase variation and viability of different builds and indirectly nerf (but also in a way buff, depending on stat set-ups) Strength (and Technology) builds due to the loss of the all-or-nothing structure.

Focus should be directly resultant of balanced stats, not two random stats because one happens to affect Robot damage and the other is considered underpowered at the moment.

Incidentally, please forgive the excessive use of parentheses. ;)



Remorse -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/6/2014 14:43:59)

^
It could work and I did mention that I liked that version a lot more for some of the reasons.

My concerns however,
Are that robot damage becomes a significant advantage to all builds that are balanced or semi balanced.

I don't necesarily like the idea of semi balanced builds either being forced to become fully balanced or disappear because of the robot advantage.

If robot scaling with focus was perhaps lower then this could help with this issue.

If they increases the base robot damage and reduce the focus scale then what this does is it lowers the preassure on semi balanced builds.

Overall I want vareity which I haven't seen since pre focus to return.

Removing focus I still think is the best option, thats not sayimg I don't like balanced builds, I think they should be buffed to stand on their own without needing focus as a significant boost.

Balanced builds should be picked for the versitlity, and still have some flexibility,
Big problem with focus is it requires you to be fully balanced, semi balanced builds lose out whilst not being much different.



I Underlord I -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/6/2014 15:03:13)

The gradual increase in Focus and therefore a corresponding boost in Robot damage would allow for rather than restrict freedom in builds. The current system ostensibly forces balance, but Focus having many levels (e.g. increasing each time all four stats are at any number threshold, with a possible minimum and maximum in place) will allow for Robot damage to be viable at different levels of evenly-distributed stats, with the sacrifice of mastery in any given skill to achieve balance (and thus Robot damage) becoming more apparent.

Buffing balanced builds somehow through another means will merely raise more game balance concerns and will be unnecessarily laborious, and Robot damage under a new system as described will be sufficient. It is also important not to go overboard with base robot damage versus the power granted by Focus; we don't want imbalanced or barely-"balanced" builds possessing high Robot damage because they happened to have each stat with a given minimum relatively low value (such as, say, 25 or 35 Support). Technology will also lose its power to boost Robot damage with the basis being on all stats, which should be a desirable outcome.



DeltaNoob123456789 -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/6/2014 17:28:34)

Not Supported, If focus gets removed then the only build that will work would be strength and it would totally ruin the game



RageSoul -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/7/2014 1:31:04)

Hello everyone !


I just have an idea ,

How about having the damage and effects scale like this ?:


Assault Bot

Base Damage : 70 + ( 35% SUPP) + ( 45% TECH ) + ( 5 x Character Level )

Secondary Active : Cleanses 20% + ( 40% Support ) % of Debuffs . Capped at 100%


Just a sample . It can be anything , including , *gasp* , max Energy !








kosmo -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/7/2014 2:08:57)

evry1 is posting valid reasons to review focus, but i have not seen valid suggestions to balance bot dmg whitout focus.




Remorse -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/7/2014 3:41:35)

Ok guys,

I think I have come up with a solution to focus,

Another big problem with focus is that it rewards you for a high investment into balanced stats,

But what if your build is still completely balanced but your investment is lower because for example you have higher HP or energy, or a lower level.

Why should be the case? focus should be defined as a reward for having balanced stats, NOT reward for having HIGH balanced stats.



So what if focus worked as a percentage of balanced stats?

For example,

Let's say you had 30 points in each stat and the rest was HP,
This would still be considered balanced and would have a balanced percentage of 100% therefore having the max damage robot boost


now lets say you fully spammed a stat and completely neglected investing in another, you would receive a 0% balanced percentage and therefore receive no robot damage bonus.

Obviously the formula for calculating this balanced percentage would be complicated however players don't need to know the formula as they can automatically work it out for you and display it for you as you adjust your build.

Why work like this?



Well their major significant advantages of working like this,

-This first is as I stated before you can have balanced stats and then still invest into HP without losing robot damage,

-And the second probably biggest bonus is that you don't have to be completely balanced with your stats to still receive a significant bonus,

Both these reasons will massively increase variety viability.

Lets say you decided to have 50 in one stat, 45 in another 2, and 40 in the last stat, in the current system that would be 4 focus and would be really silly thing to do as you merely need to invest 5 more stats into the 40 stat so you can get a significant robot advanatge,
in my proposed new system you would have about 95% balanced percentage and therefore still receive the bulk of the robot damage bonus.


What this does is it opens up the variety I mentioned before that gets excluded, it means you can be rewarded for being semi balanced, and the reward for going fully balanced is only slightly more in terms of robot damage, currently the step between 4 and 5 focus is HUGE.



What do you guys think?


One thing to note, is working as a percentage it means lower level will be able to reach strong robot damage early so they would also need to implement significant level scaling on robots like other weapons have.





kosmo -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/7/2014 4:10:32)

^
the problem is that ur assuming that trowing all of ur points into hp isn t an abuse, but ur going wrong there.

hp are the main cause of the rage issues and aside whit energy(which is usless) they are probably the only stat tht needs a change.



Remorse -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/7/2014 4:27:52)

^ I don't see what is wrong with variety within focus builds,

So they can invest in HP so what?


Any increase of variety should be a good thing,

Just because some abuse builds ruin it for everyone does not mean the variety it gives isn't good.


Abuser builds are an important part of this game and removing them would severely crush the enjoyment factor.


Like I always say, if abuse builds are a problem then they should increase the viability of their counters.

Not try to discourage them, the only thing wrong with abuser builds is not their high damage at all, that means nothing, the only possible problem some may have, is the fact the consistent high damage can not viably be countered without luck, that is the ONLY problem with them.


HP abuse builds don't need a change necessarily, they just need to add more HP counters.



kosmo -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/7/2014 5:09:46)

but we are discussing about focus because most of us find it too cheep, making bot dmg scale whit an even more cheep set of stat is absolutly pointless and it would make the issue even more rilevant.



theholyfighter -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/7/2014 8:48:59)

I see Focus as a different build option of variety....

Now I'm a bit confused.....



Remorse -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/7/2014 9:37:29)

^ It technically is, though as it currently is,

It offers one build, and blocks off many.



Elloisoul -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/7/2014 18:08:28)

^Not Really

I seen people who did have atleast focus 3 then go full dex/str depending on the class as for Full Focus examples would be those Bunker Mercs using the tech for bunker and using bot , And those BM who saps ur mana while shooting Plasma cannon and sapping ur mana , so i dont think that it offers Only one build , but really though what kind of build are you using for you to want focus to be remove because sounds like you been losing to these kinds of builds and just want it to be remove so you could win , All builds has flaws and 5 focus has one use its flaw and win its that simple



kosmo -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/7/2014 23:02:38)

^Remorse is right, the way bot scales now allows u to only 2 builds (5f or no focus) all the others sets of stats fall in a position of disvantage.



Mother1 -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/8/2014 1:47:34)

@ kosmo

At high levels maybe, but at lower level where focus 5 can't be gotten level 1-4 actually work. Also having a focus 5 at mid levels due to lack of stats is actually a bad thing there as well.



kosmo -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/8/2014 4:53:31)

^that s another reason to change focus, at lower lvls bot is almost inaviable, if not whit tech abuse (or for a tactic special);
low lvls are affected from this issue just like high lvls are.




Elloisoul -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/8/2014 9:27:48)

^Lol your are thinking of this the wrong way

Focus is fine the way it is, all builds have a trump card i believe it is fine as it is , unless you tell me there isnt any other boost in focus other than robot damage because i believe in the past focus not only did damage but made a +1 so if let say the damage was suppose the the minimium(3 back then) with focus it will become a 8 if your 5 focus but was removed now its only bot power , if your thinking that we should just put the +1 then i dont think people will bother with focus anymore because then it wil only happen with 5 focus we will have a mininium damage of 35 which would not be worth at all



edwardvulture -> RE: Focus removal (at least on robot damage...) (9/19/2014 13:53:35)

An issue that hasn't been brought up is how focus was a viable from its conception and now. No other build has this kind of staying power. But what has that resulted for the game? Before focus, there was a ton of different builds. Now there are completely no new builds whatsoever. If we put the bonus system back in where it would only give you the +1/2/3/4/5 and decided to scale robots on possibly, sup/tech/energh instead of focus, it would improve variety more than the last 3 balance updates. Why? B/c if damage can come from tech/sup/ and energy, than it would be a direct counter to the str/dex/hp build.

We also have to put into the factor that not everyone has robots and they were supposed to be an option and not a necessity.

Ofc, there are many, many, other issues that also need to be resolved. (ex. how ch has only just one unique build that other classes can't claim)
Also, there's the fact that BM's destroy any incentives of putting points in energy.



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