Current State of Debuffs (Full Version)

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Exploding Penguin -> Current State of Debuffs (9/27/2014 23:35:47)

Has anyone noticed...

Malfunction is no longer being used. Like, at all. Actually, a lot of debuffs aren't being used that much these days.

Smokescreen is used often ONLY because BHs need the damage steroid to boost their mark of blood, and they don't have much else to their tree to amplify their otherwise average damage.
For some ungodly reason, people keep preaching intimidate is too weak. IMO it isn't, but I still rarely see anyone put more than 3-4 points into it. Most only put 1-3.
Malfunction. No one even uses this anymore, except for the very rare oddball.

The current meta which focuses greatly on energy flow does not like debuffs. This can be noted by the fact that BHs have sucky energy control and are the only class which frequently uses their debuff. The fact that energy is such a valuable resource means that spending 200+ energy on a stat debuff, only for it to be over-countered by a much stronger buff that costs half the energy, is very deterring. It's a waste of energy for the most part and you essentially just trade 100 energy and some skill point investment for strike damage and a bit of rage. Also, when they buff, it overcompensates, actually deterring you from even using, for example, energy moves, after they counter your malfunction with energy shield whereas if the turn had never occurred you would be more free to use energy moves. Also, there are a lot of very strong options to counter debuffs on most classes, save for intimidate, which is just worked around (I still believe it's a godly skill because of its energy cost and effectiveness on shutting down some moves, but that's just my opinion).

My point is:

The "great" and "interesting" introduction of energy flow skills (IE: static grenade, static smash, battery backup, etc...) has ruined one aspect of versatility in build making. There's no reason to use debuffs in most cases because it's just not successful. Also note that some debuffs are unique to a small selection of classes or an individual class, additionally taking away the idea of variety in classes since the debuff is no longer one of the main focuses of the tree like it had been pretty much since the release of epicduel years ago.

What are your thoughts or opinions on the current state of debuffs, or on the current focus in the meta with energy flow?



suboto -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/27/2014 23:54:55)

1. Emp needs a nerf because its now a spammed energy drain that takes 400 to 586energy from you
2.the new energy state of the game is to change the game play and make players choose more wisely on their skill/cost. reason for 3-4 on smoke/mal is due to well 4 gives the last biggest bonus for investment then its less after that and well its more conservative on energy. A way to counter these buff shields well there abyss robot/valitimes robot/posion/energy drain etc..
3.i play tlm/merc/tm/bh and i will say this after playing them i find:
tlm's energy drain isnt effective enough due to if its blocked u lost a turn no dmg and no rage ways to fix this move: give atomic smash a 85% of dmg added bonus to its move overall effect u gain rage if blocked
merc its static smash is perfect.
tm the main issue i think with this class is its way to controlled on staff and not allowing sword given 4skills that cant be used by sword. A way to improve this class it currently has 2 physical skills that are effective in terms of dmg. By changeing one of the two to a sword energy drain but no regain in this skill would in terms allow sword users the chance to have more control on their class.
bh the energy drain i find it perfect since it takes 50% energy i make mine 300 max.
now for a class i havent played yet:
bm i find its energy drain/gain is highly effective and in a senses it should only do 85% dmg (that is if it already doesnt).

^
tlm however needs something more variable in its skill tree and replaceing field commander with it would be great with a requirement of a club. possible ideas:
ignore % of armor of opponent 5% of armor each turn cap 15%.
sacirifice hp to cut opponents armor by %
endless possiblilities.



Mother1 -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/28/2014 0:03:27)

Intimidate is so successful because only 2 classes have a buff to counter it. Malfuction and Smoke every class has a way to counter them ever since the passive to active change given they have the energy to use them.

Plus as you pointed out no one ever brought up buffs being overpowered due to the fact that offense for the longest has been so strong.

So they nerfed just about everything that went with offense while buffing or leaving defensive skills the same.

This was why Intimidate and just about all the other buffs remained at the old delta standard or in other cases got buffed.

I only use Malfuction as a way to weaken certain skills myself due to Technician, Energy shield, blood shield, and Plasma armor (wow 4 ways to counter malf) all can trump Malf at even the lower levels.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/28/2014 0:30:05)

I think the current state of debuffs is good for battle strategy, actually. We've moved on from an era where the default opening move was a debuff, and debuffs are now used to nerf skills/RNG/weapons and break the battle flow (i.e. force opponent on the defensive) as much as to increase damage. Debuffs don't see much use nowadays because the dominant mindset regarding debuffs is still that they should unleash a string of non-stop, powerful attacks, which only suits STR builds. Thus debuffs are still popular with BH and CH, while STR TM has largely fell out of vogue, though it is perfectly viable.



FrostWolv -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/28/2014 2:40:15)

I had told this earlier and will repeat after playing after 10 months


Developers you have re-scaled (nerfed) DEBUFF but you have not re-scaled SHIELDS


Normal malf value is - 30 at max if level 6-7 that a player uses which is equivalent to minus 50-60 resistance but the value of shields are way more around 250-300 at average at level 2-3 !!


RE-SCALE BUFFS ... or make debuff as it was before omega .... if you re-scale debuff then buff should be rescale too !!



theholyfighter -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/28/2014 6:46:13)

^ Yea I completely agree with that.

They nerfed Smoke and Malf (especially this one) to a point where there's no actual point. Besides, just check how much tech is taken and how much resistance is added with the same support (malf and energy shield). By the way, I still believe that there's an issue with Malf and Smoke. One improves on Support and the other on Tech, making one less-invest-able than the other one.

Buffing Assault Bots may probably do the trick.

Cleanse: Reduce all debuff effects by 65%.

65% is totally not worth a round, that's why players prefer shields than Assault Bots. The damage is a problem; it's way too weak damage-wise.

So, here's an option that might help making Assault Bots more useful rather than dusted behind those merchants and backpacks.

quote:


Damage: 150-->170
Cleanse: 65%-->85%


On topic again, shields are not balanced enough in current gameplay functions. Another thing is Plasma Armor and Mineral Amor. They're actually some distance weaker than those shields (Energy Shield/Defense Matrix) and buffs (Technician, Reflex Boost, Commander). They add a much lower amount than they do (stat invest improvement wise) as well as costing way more than they do.

What's next is Technician. It's an extremely handy skill, due to its low cost and high tech increase. A lvl 1 Technician can easily outbuff a lvl 4 Malfunction.





Ranloth -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/28/2014 6:51:28)

quote:

Another thing is Plasma Armor and Mineral Amor. They're actually some distance weaker than those shields (Energy Shield/Defense Matrix) and buffs (Technician, Reflex Boost, Commander). They add a much lower amount than they do (stat invest improvement wise) as well as costing way more than they do.

For which they compensate for by lasting 4 turns, as opposed to 3 turns, and not being able to debuff them with any means - Smoke, Malf, Azrael's Torment (Bot/Aux) are all ineffective against them. Whilst all the other Shields can be debuffed in one way or another - even Support-improving ones, although, the cores debuffing Support are now rare. The cost is fair actually, and the way they scale makes them more effective for tank builds, without having to invest a lot of skill points into - L4-5 works on my alts because of their high defenses.



theholyfighter -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/28/2014 7:01:51)

I did think of the extra one turn, but it not only grants less def/resis but costs more energy. From my understandings, 2 of those disadvantages take away more than that mere 1 turn. Either you cost more energy for an extra turn or you spread out some def/resis for the extra turn. By the way, E Shield and Defense Matrix cannot be nerfed by Skills either. For Azrael's Torment, that's a seasonal rare Skill Core, so I don't think it's too appropriate for balance arguments. Lastly, Plasma Armor and Mineral Armor are all once Passives. They're once free of charge, and I know, lasts forver with a lesser amount. That's pretty ideal, IMO. Something along the pattern (a loooong duration with a reasonal cost).



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/28/2014 7:19:28)

As it is, the discussion seems to imply that an attacker should still continue hitting the defender with the same attack type when there is a shield + debuff up. While viable if a stat boost is up, this is silly and has always been silly if a shield is up. I'm not sure what's the point of arguing with this understanding. You have to realise that debuffs can be used for a wider variety of purposes - they're not some variant of Field Commander.

Secondly, I'm not sure what the concern is regarding the tech/support scaling of smoke and malf. CHs would greatly prefer a support scaling because of its offensive bent, which is the only viable way to play the class due to its absurdly flawed defences. TMs would be fine either way. BHs would in fact also be fine either way due to the vast amount of skills that sync with support in its skill tree. I think that you're still stuck in the Delta mindset of spamming tech/support to enhance the debuffs' effectiveness, which is no longer a wise way to play.

That being said, Plasma and Mineral armour need fixing, particularly since both TLM and CH are energy-heavy classes and cannot afford skills with such low efficiency.



FrostWolv -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/28/2014 7:51:20)

Well I have no issue in Malfunction being support dependent skill ....

My only concern is the Shields and buffs ........

People complained that with change in system in omega debuff should be re-scaled and I agree to it...

My question is Why didnt buffs get rescaled like debuffs ?

the value of shields and buffs are strong and the sad part is that having 1-2 level shield or 2-3 level buffs are enough to counter level 6-7 debuff

Re-scale buffs



Mother1 -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/28/2014 14:25:41)

@ theholyfighter

Even if the assault bot got that buff people still wouldn't use it at high levels. Why because shields even though they have a cost can 9/10 negate the debuff or cover you defensively. All buffing this robot would do is devalue debuffs even more seeing as that was the main reason why it got it's nerf.

If you think about it every time they nerfed debuffs they indirectly buffed this robot because it less just that much less of said debuff on the person due to the weakening of their power.

If anything Buffs need to be brought back to the omega Standard just like debuffs have been instead of inflating them so high or leaving them the same. The only buff that ever took a nerf in the game was defense matrix and that was a slight nerf at that due to when support was overpowered.


Everything else was either left as it was (Technician, Energy shield Field commander) Or was given a buff (Reflex boost, Blood commander, Blood shield Hybrid armor, mineral armor, plasma armor)



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/28/2014 15:51:58)

quote:

Emp needs a nerf because its now a spammed energy drain that takes 400 to 586energy from you


This feels a bit like an exaggeration because I'm running a focus build with just a bit over 80 tech, and my level 7 EMP takes 406 energy.

quote:

I only use Malfuction as a way to weaken certain skills myself due to Technician, Energy shield, blood shield, and Plasma armor (wow 4 ways to counter malf) all can trump Malf at even the lower levels.


The problem with this is:

If I invest in malfunction, then it just gets more than negated. For some ungodly reason, a level 3 malf from my 72 support build is exactly negated by a level 1 technician (costing exactly half the amount of energy, while lasting one more turn) from a ~80-90 dex build. If they use energy shield or invest more in the buff, using the debuff actually prevents me in the next few turns from using energy-based attacks at all since they'll do near no damage.

quote:

I think the current state of debuffs is good for battle strategy, actually.


BHs still spam their debuff to no end, until they run out of energy and have to decide between it or mark of blood. Right now debuffs aren't just an alternate battle strategy; they're complete trash except in certain niche situations, and they're essentially unusable.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/29/2014 0:37:40)

^

You're only talking about STR BHs, and debuff spam is also characteristic of most STR CH and STR TM builds. If a 5-focus BH is using his debuff as a default opening move, I can almost guarantee that he isn't a good player. And as a 5-focus BH, I still find use for Smokescreen in a variety of situations, so I can't emphathise with your view. Smokescreen provides a win-win situation for me - if the opponent shields, I get an effective stun and just use my other damage type. If the opponent does not, I get a good damage boost for 3 turns. I suspect that people who find the shield an issue have imbalanced damage types - e.g. ENG sword, PHYS gun, ENG aux and ENG bot. As a rule, you should be able to hit strongly with either damage type for 3 consecutive turns.



Mother1 -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/29/2014 2:49:24)

@ SSM

It still doesn't change the fact that they didn't bring buffs to the omega standard like they did with debuffs. Smoke and Malf both took several nerfs. With malf they did the following

1 Removed the increasing with levels
2 Lowered the base
3 Increased the scaling

With Smoke they did the following

1 Removed the increasing with levels
2 Increased the scaling

However, they never did such thing with buffs with the exception of defense matrix and they only did it with that buff because of when support was too strong. Every other buff they either left along (energy shield Technician, field commander) Or they gave them a good buffing (Reflex boost Blood commander, Blood shield, Plasma, mineral, hybrid armor)

None of these were brought to the omega standard.

While I know buffs are suppose to be stronger to compensate for the fact that debuffs give damage and rage, The compensation from debuffs was nerfed along with the debuffs.

Not only this, but buffs are cheaper on energy and at lower levels completely outclass debuffs at higher levels.

I mentioned this being an issue sometime ago but most ignored me but the point is shields are in this case overpowered and need to be looked at.



FrostWolv -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/29/2014 5:08:08)

quote:


by Mother1



buffs are cheaper on energy and at lower levels completely outclass debuffs at higher levels.




I completely agree ... .even I did mention way back about re-scaling buff if debuffs got re-scaled.


quote:



by SSM


I suspect that people who find the shield an issue have imbalanced damage types.


I do think there are people who have balanced damage type and find this buffs as imbalanced. Reason is while everything got re-scaled in Omega like Damage, Hp, Debuffs, focus ..... only thing that has remained same are the buffs which is what making them overpowered.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/29/2014 19:09:45)

quote:

STR CH and STR TM builds


Maybe 1/5 or 1/10 strength CHs use malfunction regularly. And maybe 1/20 strength TMs use malfunction. I rarely see these used at all, especially on strength TMs.

When I say spam to no end, I mean that they use it maybe 2 times on average per fight, which is already way more than malfunction on any other class/build. I don't mean that they literally spam it and use it every time it's up.

quote:

If a 5-focus BH is using his debuff as a default opening move, I can almost guarantee that he isn't a good player.


In the current meta, any good player wouldn't even have a preset opening move. I have 2-3 different options if I go first, and if the enemy goes first, I normally have around 3-4 or more. That's the way the current meta works.

quote:

I suspect that people who find the shield an issue have imbalanced damage types - e.g. ENG sword, PHYS gun, ENG aux and ENG bot. As a rule, you should be able to hit strongly with either damage type for 3 consecutive turns.


Make that 2 turns, since an energy flow move will normally be used to stall. Still, it zones you a lot. If your bot is energy and is a primary form of damage, then it just got shut down because you won't want to use it at all when they counter malfunction with energy shield, and vice versa for smokescreen. Also, unless you're using cores/skills (which cost energy so I will disregard them in this fashion) or a hybrid-damage bot like gamma bot/infernal android, hitting with 3 consecutive turns of either damage source is crippling to your build. The only possible way to do it is run, for example, a physical primary and energy gun, aux, and bot, or the opposite. And relying on strikes for your damage if shielded against is detrimental to yourself, because strike damage is often very weak unless you're using strength (in which case it would optimally be the same damage type as your debuff, and thus you'll just get shielded against making your strike useless as well), and they can be blocked, not to mention their total damage potential is less than other attacks like an aux so you gain less total rage.



suboto -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/30/2014 1:26:43)

theres nothing wrong with debuffs ive tested malfuction and smoke heres tips to counter theses "shields":
Abyss robot
valtines robot
blood hawk
posion robot
omega debuff
etc..
balance issues with shields:
mineral armor/plasma armor cost far too much for what it does. <~~ needs a reduced energy cost start off energy cost -10.
The other armor skill for merc is oped:
the cost is decent for a double armor protection a tad bit lower then whats needed



FrostWolv -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/30/2014 7:19:16)

quote:

theres nothing wrong with debuffs ive tested malfuction and smoke


I agree there is nothing wrng since there is so many re-scaling done .... it should have been re-scaled

But shields are in the need to be re-scaled too .... buffs are still the same

What makes Buff an issue:-

1. It has not been re-scaled in Omega
2. If its value stays same then it needs comparatively low level requirement to counter debuff presently lvl 1-2 buffs can counter level 5-6 debuff and have extra defense over them.
3. Another reason for re-scaling it is the energy requirement as energy flow is main factor in omega.. If Buff are not resealed then increase their energy cost coz 120 buffs invalidate 240 energy debuff.


quote:

heres tips to counter theses "shields":
Abyss robot
valtines robot
blood hawk
posion robot
omega debuff


Why would I be bound to use this tips because Devs forgot to re-scale buffs ?






Silver Sky Magician -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/30/2014 7:27:36)

^

It's not 'forgot to rescale buffs' - suboto is making the argument that since there are more ways to counter buffs, they don't need to be rescaled because to do so would only be realigning them with regard to debuffs, when in fact the realignment, if any, should take place with regard to the variety of cores available as well.



FrostWolv -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/30/2014 7:34:38)

those bots have been realign .....


@SSM

if u want to make a statement then kindly give remark on my previous post. Saying "they don't need to be rescaled" isnt an appropriate answer.



Mother1 -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/30/2014 7:54:07)

@ SSM

Many of those counters are seasonal rares meaning they can't be got right away with the exception of the Abyss bot and with the omega weapons that is not available to everyone so if you don't have that item you can't use it.

Also variety of cores? Really we have very little variety with cores. If you don't have varium than you don't have any new cores because all the new cores they been making as of late are varium ones that are on locked items.

But even if you logic was correct then this mean they never should have directly and indirectly nerfed debuffs while buffing buffs (with the exception of defense matrix which was nerfed) through the roof. They should have been adding more cores instead.



suboto -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/30/2014 8:34:17)

quote:

buffing buffs (with the exception of defense matrix which was nerfed) through the roof.


this, mineral armor/plasma armor/merc armor = were passives took extreme nerf in the passive to active going from unlimited too 4 turns and costing energy that alone is a massive nerf.
quote:

Abyss robot
valtines robot
blood hawk
posion robot
omega debuff


^ this theres also more counters to shields:
Azeral aux
posion= tlm/ch/bh
cheap shot= bh/ch
Fire scythe= tm/bm
bunker= merc
plasma cannon= bm
frenzy=tlm




Silver Sky Magician -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/30/2014 8:35:06)

@Frostwolv

I did give reasons, as Mother1 quite accurately discerned.

@Mother1

Quite the opposite. Shields in their current state are necessary to handle combos like Necrosis + Smoke. If the implicit target for shields in nerfing them is for them to provide 1.2x the def/res taken away by debuffs of a similar level (or something, I don't know. but there should be a target, not an arbitrary 'lets decrease it by 30 def/res at base'), they will be easily overpowered by the combination of offensive cores and debuffs. As they are only Defense Matrix and Energy Shield are able to keep their users above water, and from experience, they may not even then be enough. If you mean 'add more defensive cores', that would be an interesting solution, but I see it the other way around - nerf shields when you introduce cores that directly boost defences, not introduce defensive cores in order to justify nerfing shields. Also note that no core released so far actually complements the use of buffs. Furthermore, the bot that is available all year around, the Black Abyss Bot, happens to be the most effective bot when using the debuff core + debuff skill combo.



suboto -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/30/2014 8:37:56)

before debuffs are buffed assault bot would have to be buffed to cleanse 75% of debuff and deal 170dmg



Variation -> RE: Current State of Debuffs (9/30/2014 9:52:53)

Debuffs really aren't underpowered. Forcing your opponent to play defensively and making them give you a rage advantage isn't exactly weak. When I played five focus BH I did about 98% in 1v1 without any hesitations simply by trolling a level 1 Smokescreen. I love it when players use a defensive buff to counter a debuff I placed on them. That rage advantage they give me by buffing themselves generally makes me win the battle without much trouble (this applies only to 1v1, this is a completely different story in 2v2).

Also debuffs are extremely powerful with the Blood Hawks and Black Abyss robots, those robots don't deserve any type of buff. Directly or indirectly because that will clearly overpower them. Those robots stacked with debuffs are extremely dangerous in 1v1/2v2.

Cores may not sound like a good secondary reason for debuffs to not get buffed, but players need to remember this is Omega it's all about cores. The developers must take cores into account when balancing, whether they're seasonal or not.

Anyways, debuffs are very tactical if used correctly. If I can make good use of debuffs in their current state, then the rest of the community can as well. While they may not be overpowered they certainly aren't underpowered because they have many tactical uses, such as lowering block/deflect chance, stacking with defense lowering cores, and gaining a rage advantage by making your opponent shield.



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