Strength builds (Full Version)

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Hour of judgement -> Strength builds (11/2/2014 15:06:14)

They still haven't been fixed this is ridiculous and scaring players away, They are unbalanced and before anyone trys to argue otherwise please don't. There is a reason almost the entire player base are using them particularly at the end game. They offer low risk high reward wins.

With very little skill needed to use. And make the game extremely stale when its all you see . If you aren't using a strength build your odds of beating a strength build none legend is almost impossible. Legend rank strength build? If your not also using strength save yourself time hit refresh.

This needs fixing urgently . I took a break because of this before , And unfortunately feel like I'm going to have to again - I don't find it fun facing the exact same strength build with a few tiny differences between builds depending on class almost every battle - And everyone's using them because there broken.



DeltaNoob123456789 -> RE: Strength builds (11/2/2014 16:43:01)

I totally agree with you, And I feel like strength should be nerfed espically Bludgeon on BM cause they're overused plus offer high wins, that's why I rarely get on



Mother1 -> RE: Strength builds (11/2/2014 17:08:49)

If you are having trouble with strength builds invest in Dexterity. This is what it is there for. There are also shields that each and every class has, Intimidate if you are a BM or Merc, and recently put into the game the new robot which makes strength builds cry.

There are many ways to counter strength builds you just need to use them.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Strength builds (11/2/2014 18:18:25)

quote:

There is a reason almost the entire player base are using them particularly at the end game. They offer low risk high reward wins.


No, it's because they're so easy to use even a monkey could win with a strength build. Their win rate is solid but not absurd, so they provide a good balance of easiness to use and win rate.

There are definitely other builds out there with a much higher win rate, but require more skill to use.



Lycan. -> RE: Strength builds (11/2/2014 18:53:11)

OP mentioned:
quote:

I don't find it fun facing the exact same strength build with a few tiny differences between builds depending on class almost every battle - And everyone's using them because there broken.

I don't agree with nerfing every build that seems overpowered if there are builds to counter them, in this case dexterity based builds can counter strength although some strength based cores such as the energy damage meteor strike and energy damage sidearms do make it rather ineffective.
If the mods increase the effectiveness of certain builds or stats like support then variation would definately have it's effect on the build aspect of the game, and hopefully, people start trying out different difficult builds instead of going with the easy route and spamming strength then surely it will improve the game tremendously.
Anyway i hope they don't nerf strength builds for certain classes, instead i wish that they would increase the effectiveness of builds that aren't viable in the current meta.

And as OP also mentioned
quote:

They offer low risk high reward wins.

I completely agree with this quote. IMO they should do what they did back in Gamma, which is increase the credit reward for each round of a game e.g 1-3 credit per round up unto a cap of maybe 30 bonus credits so people don't intentionally prolong games.
With this implemention high strength builds won't get the full profit for their 3 round matches.

As i said before i don't agree with nerfing strength builds, but just increasing the effectiveness of other builds to create a larger variation of builds so people don't spam a certain OP build. Here is why:
"Ive recently tested out a variety of support-based builds on TM, TLM and I can sadly tell you that it may be quite underpowered for these specific classes (they were once the best classes of support builds).
Unfortunately they lack variation and only rely on aux which has a massive cooldown, support doesn't seem as great as it used to be in Gamma when it increased healing and deflection chance and many think that it's not a stat that is worth upgrading anymore just because first strike and crit chance doesn't seem to be on par with dex or tech which give armor and magic resistance as well as block/deflection chance.
I really hope devs think about this builds balance issues.
If they deduct the core amount of each weapon/armor to 1 (only active cores unless it's a rare passive e.g celtic cleaver or curse) then they can bring back classes good old passives back and hopefully the positive sides of balanced support-based builds which we can all enjoy without the constant drop of failure.

Some changes I would reccomend would be either:
- Reduce cooldown of aux to 3 instead of 4
- Make Field Medic progress health regeneration based on the support stat
- Deduct weapon and armor cores to one active instead of an active and passive together (This might be hard for Devs to bear so i don't think this would happen though I highly recomend it) and bring back old classes passive skills back into the game e.g. Shadow arts, reroute, mineral armor etc.
- Make damage dealing cores that progress in damage with the support stat"

EDIT: Support build isn't the only build which i think needs tweaking, there are many more which can't be bothered going into detail with.
Let's just hope the Developers increase these non-viable builds and create variation instead of nerfing every single over-used build.





Mother1 -> RE: Strength builds (11/2/2014 19:17:49)

@ Lycan

quote:

- Deduct weapon and armor cores to one active instead of an active and passive together (This might be hard for Devs to bear so i don't think this would happen though I highly recomend it) and bring back old classes passive skills back into the game e.g. Shadow arts, reroute, mineral armor etc.


Any weapon with a locked passive core on it will become a piece of junk if they did this especially some old promos and non promo items that players brought.

Celtic cleaver, Infernal introductor, Stun guns, are just a few of the promo's that will become worthless if they did this. The Frost reaper armor, beast rider armor, Delta Knight, would also become just skins if they did this. I know I wouldn't be happy if they did this because I own a few of these items and I spent real money on at least 2 of them.

As for passives coming back that won't be happening seeing as the staff made it clear in an old passive suggetion thread, while mods posted the quote in two other passive suggestion threads.

quote:

- Reduce cool down of aux to 3 instead of 4


The Aux cool down is already 3 turns.

quote:

- Make Field Medic progress health regeneration based on the support stat


They have been promising this for the longest. However the scaling would need to be high like Assimilation's scaling rate otherwise heavy abuse would happen with this.

quote:

- Make damage dealing cores that progress in damage with the support stat


While we all would like this the problem is that the cores are a balance issue and that takes time. Though I would to see the more cores and not just on promo items or locked cores on weapons.



youbo -> RE: Strength builds (11/2/2014 19:37:31)

I am thinking of something simple that should help:

Make sidearms get half bonus from both strength and support.
This way,pure strenght build will only get average damage on their sidearm,
Pure support build will get an usable attack beside aux and support skills,
Balanced build wont be affected.



Lycan. -> RE: Strength builds (11/2/2014 19:56:29)

@Mother1
I do agree with most of what you said:
quote:


Any weapon with a locked passive core on it will become a piece of junk if they did this especially some old promos and non promo items that players brought.

Celtic cleaver, Infernal introductor, Stun guns, are just a few of the promo's that will become worthless if they did this. The Frost reaper armor, beast rider armor, Delta Knight, would also become just skins if they did this. I know I wouldn't be happy if they did this because I own a few of these items and I spent real money on at least 2 of them.

As for passives coming back that won't be happening seeing as the staff made it clear in an old passive suggetion thread, while mods posted the quote in two other passive suggestion threads.


Unfortunately i doubt the developers can do anything about the cores, which IMO is the worst part of the balance aspect of this game as it had such a massive impact on the classes skill tree's, taking away all the passives jeez, it would be really irritating for capped players to invest 40 skills on active-only skills and many dump some of them on random skills to minimise energy cost and effeciency of priority skills.
They could simply keep locked cores on items but make it so that only one core is on a single weapon/armor. I hope. But I doubt. Devs have been lackluster since Omega update on balance changes.

There's nothing else I can say except Omega sucks, so much for high expectations devs, sorry if I sound like a douche but it's all your fault for implementing huge and miltiple balance changes in one update (Omega update).

END RANT.



Noobatron x3000 -> RE: Strength builds (11/3/2014 16:29:30)

There are no counters to a strength build shield is pretty pointless to begin with as it only covers one defence unless its hybrid - + azrael or blood hawk or abyss bots etc etc can render said shield almost useless.

And even without those most of there strengths are so extreme the shield doesn't do you that much good and gives them a huge rage buff. But lets face it almost everyone has away to neutralise you shield.

Intimidate for a start only 2 classes have this option - And the strength debuff against most strength builds at the end game will still leave there strength ,id- high.

There only weakness is defence usually having average defences completely offset by extreme hp high heals and mark of blood . All these factors put together making the mighty strength build almost unstoppable and OP.



Lycan. -> RE: Strength builds (11/4/2014 12:35:30)

If only Devs made Field Medic progress in health points with the support stat then full strength spam won't be as effecient with a low heal as it currently is.
It would also give support a chance to reinforce the meta and create variation.
But the devs won't listen. Typical. They rarely do.



Mother1 -> RE: Strength builds (11/4/2014 15:52:26)

@ Lycan

I will let you know in this phase the staff has been taking in more suggestions than you think.

The passive to active update was suggested by the players since the gamma phase. The main reason was they said passives were a must have and thought without them their would be variety due to not being locked into using them.

When players complained about strength being too strong the staff did nerf it. The same can be said when support was too strong, focus Etc.

When the ranks came out people complained about how unfair it was for players who have a 5+ gap to face ranked level 40's and as a result level 40's had their level range cut in 1 vs 1 and the levels they can face in 2 vs 2 lowered (I won't say cut because it is still possible to fight opponents with an added difference of 6) even when level 40's had the smallest player base.

When the players complained on twitter about war 1.0 being boring and wanting it to be more rewarding and end the staff brought war 2.0 in some time later.

My point is that many of the changes made this phase were brought on because the players asked/complained for them.



youbo -> RE: Strength builds (11/4/2014 16:15:10)

Hum...did anyone read what I said? What are your opinions about the idea?



beaststyles -> RE: Strength builds (11/5/2014 7:29:18)

Youbo, I read your suggestion a few days ago and I like the sound of it. But i didnt get a chance to post.

I would recommend that you make a new post in suggestions so it gets better attention by staff.

Beast.



FrostWolv -> RE: Strength builds (11/5/2014 9:40:03)

Certain things that make strength bit dominant:-

1. active cores when used in aux or gun, sends the weapon in cool down, why not it is same with primary weapon. Atleast one turn cool down of primary should be made.

2. many class-skills is based on primary weapon even if its non-strength based skills like --> malf, smoke, hunter's poison, assimilation, maul, atom smash, static smash, mark of blood, energy parasite, static charge. These skills are based on strike's damage and their main purpose is no where near to aid strength damage but are indirectly synergies well with strength build.

3. Too much aggressive cores for primary but no to few aggressive core for armor and aux.

4. If devs have made Strike function to have 0 cooldown, they why did they make gun improves with strength (plz dont tell me that strength is needed to pull gun's trigger .... its a fictional video game ... over here ants use magic!!)


5. HEAL skill:- Devs have boosted the value of heal and mad it improve with nothing. Previous phase the demerit of str buid was that they used to heal up low due to low support investment. Now its same for all. Even level 1 heal is strong right now.

66. SUPPORT stat:- in current meta many ppl (apart from 5-f build) are using 18 support build because support stat's impact in this game is low.

Suggestion for support stat:- Decrease the heal progression per level. Make level 1 heal with 18 support give 320 heal at level 40. Make heal improve with support (devs promised us this long time ago, lets see when it happens)


Shields progression should be lowered and scale better with support. In current meta if you are using strength build and been debuffed or want a strategic defense play or help ur ally by providing defense, all u need to do is invest addition two skills in shields and your shield value will be close to the player who invested point in support. So i think to make support viable decrease shield progression at levels and make them scale better with support.



FameFortune -> RE: Strength builds (11/6/2014 20:12:40)

@frost

a cool down on strike wouldn't work as some people may have to skip their turn



Mother1 -> RE: Strength builds (11/6/2014 20:33:27)

@ fameFortune

FrostWolv never mentioned giving strike a cool down. His complaint unless I am mistaken is why give the most spammable move in the game that has no cost or cool down a stat to improve with? By doing this it basically gave anyone who uses the build that matches that stat a way to keep getting consistant damage than none of the other stats have.

If anything instead of giving strike a cool down make it so it doesn't get the stat bonus that all strength based moves get.



FameFortune -> RE: Strength builds (11/9/2014 11:54:40)

@Mother1

quote:

1. active cores when used in aux or gun, sends the weapon in cool down,why not it is same with primary weapon. Atleast one turn cool down of primary should be made.


Lets say you used meteor shower but then next turn all thats left to do would have been strike, but now you must waste energy on something you don't want to use or you skip turn or use a lot more strategy before hand - thats what I believe Frost meant

And im a bit confused what you meant by "make it so it doesn't get the stat bonus that all strength based moves get."



Mother1 -> RE: Strength builds (11/9/2014 13:58:06)

@ FameFortune

The primary doesn't have a cool down due to it being used for strike which is why the strike button doesn't go into a cool down. Also if the primary went into a cool down then every melee attack as well as moves that work with the primary weapon would have to go into cool down which would be a major mess to balance.

Remember unlike the primary the gun and Aux aren't connected to moves on the skill tree.

As for what I meant by that you know the weapon damage you get from the primary? In this case 350 damage? The bonus damage you get is from the strength you have. When I said remove the bonus damage I meant remove any damage you would get from strength when it comes with that strike. Any move that uses energy would get the bonus however when you use strike and strike alone that bonus from strength is not factored in.

This means it improves with no stat and it is flat out weapon damage like fire scythe is (minus the defense ignoring property.)



FrostWolv -> RE: Strength builds (11/9/2014 14:18:20)

well the explaination from my part in that point was improper.

what I wanted to say was a turn cooldown for strike ...

And I have different opinion from mother1 in this part ... I do believe str-user do have some skill in their tree to use after using active primary core. Strike isnt a tree- based skill and just like gun and aux it should have cooldown after using active core.

By doing this at-least strength build will get some game-play mechanic .... or else they will strike opponents till eternity.



King Bling -> RE: Strength builds (11/11/2014 9:39:17)

By what I have gathered from Frost, twisting his idea a little bit, hes right after the usage of an active core there should be a cooldown on strike, in that mean time they can use the mark of blood or smoke or malf which would do normal damage as strike would have, if there is no energy left, then go with gun or aux, now considering that there is a possibility of using active core only once so cooldown can be sacrificed with a gun nothing bad in the idea, and chances of left with only strike is none.



FrostWolv -> RE: Strength builds (11/11/2014 11:31:58)

@KingBling

i knw in normal match str user will hardly have this issue .... Thing is i want devs to implement this with other points that I posted above



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