RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (Full Version)

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comicalbike -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 4:37:07)

OK i understand they say epic duel is not worth saving would take to long to fix ,would you like us all to leave this game now, or how long have we got left days weeks months , or is it not worth staying.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 4:45:22)

Using statistics for all games, rather than focusing primarily on Flash browser games, means your data is quite flawed, dfo. You're comparing two different markets. LoL is on Steam, has its own client, and isn't built in Flash - of course it'll have more players. PC Gaming is NOT the same as Flash browsers. They are two completely separate markets. Comparing Flash games, to proper PC games akin to LoL or DotA, is a flawed comparison.

And ED has a good couple of years to go. Players said the game will be dead in months, when Omega came out, and it's been over two years now and we're still releasing, still have a fair amount of players, and have a stable playerbase too.



dfo99 -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 4:54:37)

then the comparison to browser games with mobile games is also flawed? at least you must have a PC or notebook to play ed. mobile and flash still is not a excuse.




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 5:08:41)

Flash browsers have minimal requirements, whilst PC games don't always. Mobile market is booming, and that's a fact - no comparisons are needed. You just compare the sales between the two. I won't mention less engine limitations, compared to Flash - and less features, usually means less players too.

It's not an excuse for you, and that's fine. But you're arguing against facts given to you by AE - not ED Devs making it up just because. There was research put into it, by the company, for the past few years now.



Bender Rodriguez -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 5:27:06)

League of Legends isn't on steam @Ranloth.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 5:32:30)

Uh, I may be thinking DotA then. Still, it has its own client however. Flash browser games don't, and face more restrictions due to being browser games, and made in Flash.

Also, an article why Flash is pretty much dead and Unity was chosen for all future games:
quote:

While YouTube killed the Flash animation star, the plugin stuck around a bit longer, thanks to online games – at least until the game development platform Unity superseded it there too.
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/30/flash-youtube-nostalgia



dfo99 -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 5:36:18)

i am not arguing against the facts or saying that the mobile games is not growing up, i am arguing against the conclusion about it. in a nutshell, the devs point is "our game is ok, we have done a good job, but ed don't back became bigger due the others platforms concurrence" this is showed as a fact, but is apparently is not. also not even all flash games is going down, the game which i mentioned in other thread, the king of towers is growing up, slowly but growing up.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 5:42:15)

Flash is inferior to Unity. It's dead. Adobe doesn't support it anymore so as the time passes, there will be more security issues with it. Games won't last for a long period of time because of it - AE took advantage of Flash when it was getting better, but now it's time to evolve. Or die, and take the whole company with them - but they can't. Moving to Unity and mobile means making more money, to keep the older Flash games running for longer. Eventually, they will be shut down, but this postpones it per se. AE agreed to keep games online even if they are making a slight loss, but once it becomes significant enough, the game will shut down.

AE Games are losing players, and it's a fact. Mobile market is to blame, because they don't officially support Flash, and AE needs it for their Flash games. A third party browser is not a solution, either. That, and Flash being dead and not supported even by Adobe, the creators. Unity is cross-platform which means more people can play it off all devices.



romanu -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 5:58:49)

Other then advertising the new mobile game, will ED have a release this friday? Any news on balance(proper one) and not just small changes?



Satafou -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 6:36:28)

People who game on mobile are hardly gamers. PC is the best system for gamers, i have a PS4 yet it is covered in dust. The ED community i can assure you hasn't left because mobile games have become the new big thing. They have left because, lets be honest here, Epicduel has gone backwards. Omega was meant to be the finishing touch to Epicduel, but it actually feels like a testing server. People have left this game, because of the game's own errors. It has absolutely nothing to do with the outbreak of mobile games. Do you honestly think that people who play mobile games, would ever do PC games? Have you ever heard of a guy who played flappy bird but is also a pro on WoW, or any flash game in general?

Epicduel has so much potential, and i'm not just saying this. Epicduel is very unique and there is so many amazing adjustments that could be made. However it appears that the devs themselves don't even care about ED and that they've purposely allowed Epicduel to go downhill in order for this new mobile game of theirs to have a valid reason to be experimented on, "AE Games are losing players, and it's a fact. Mobile market is to blame, because they don't officially support Flash, and AE needs it for their Flash games." Mobile games are not to blame as they do not attract the same target audience that the likes of Epicduel does. What is to blame for Epicduel losing players is all the horrid decisions in balance that have been made in the past, and making this game feel like a dress up game instead of a "Massively focused PVP MMORPG".



RageSoul -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 6:53:08)

Since ED's deathbed is getting near from the looks of it , i wonder what will be up for the accounts actual hardcore players put so much effort into? But anyway back to the topic :

quote:

Flash is inferior to Unity. It's dead. Adobe doesn't support it anymore so as the time passes, there will be more security issues with it. Games won't last for a long period of time because of it - AE took advantage of Flash when it was getting better, but now it's time to evolve. Or die, and take the whole company with them - but they can't. Moving to Unity and mobile means making more money, to keep the older Flash games running for longer. Eventually, they will be shut down, but this postpones it per se. AE agreed to keep games online even if they are making a slight loss, but once it becomes significant enough, the game will shut down.

In terms of flexibility / accessibility on multiple platforms ( which are not legit game platforms BTW ) yes it's dead , but the whole "It sells so it must be good" argument won't cut it . We rarely see more amounts of movement-based games or actual PvP ones today because the audience who uses these devices are most likely not going to say "I'm going to work hard to be better at this game!" due to their activities involving more on social media , so i doubt that if ever the Devs made an Unity-systemized ED it will result great fruit .



Squrwogrona -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 7:31:30)

@Ran

Thats what I meant, Biobeast first step in the learning curve in Unity and much later, maybe ED 2.0 when devs feel they can do it.

On the other hand, branching out to mobile "platforms"; as many said already, smartphone users are fickle bunch and you can't seriously compare them to PC/Mac or even console players...

IDK, companies like Artix surely have marketing experts etc etc, but you'd have to push out several games a year to have some noticeable profit in smartphone segment imo. There are zillions of games for Smarts and it is quantity, not quality out there. Anyway, I'm sure Artix did the math and can pull it off.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 7:43:29)

Well, Artix did approve the project, so that must say something. The Devs can't start it unless they get an approval from Artix. Mobile market currently works for short term projects, like the BioBeasts. Not for the long term, no.

If EpicDuel 2 happens, it'll also be made in Unity. But cross-platform will allow it to be playable on all devices, and possibly have dedicated mobile UI to make it easier to play, just like AQ3D has - based on screenshots I've seen on Twitter. This would be a long-term project which can take a couple of years, if this EpicDuel is to continue at the same time - hence why smaller project, like BioBeasts, was undertaken; to gain knowledge of working in Unity, and then use it in bigger projects. It's impossible to make a big game, full of decent features, with no knowledge - it would be limited in features otherwise, not due to limitations but lack of knowledge, basically.

Going back to mobile market - more people are buying tablets, than laptops. Tablets don't support Flash, hence why mobile games hit it off so well. Lack of support, means less players - mainly casual players, which are still players and they don't often rely on likes of PC but more portable / on-the-go. Unity works on them, which means more players shared across devices but still playing the same game - which is basically more players. More players means higher demand, and higher demand means the Dev Team could expand a lot further, and have bigger, better, and more consistent releases - just like AQW.



Darkwing -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 8:54:59)

Put the blame on the market and adobe instead of yourself, it's like you can't drive but blame the car.

The main reason why AE lost many players it's because they focused too much on selling cosmetics in their games instead of improving the game.

They will do bad with unity too if they go with that logic. There so many F2P games these days, some even AAA games, that you have to stand out with the game, not focus on the pay model too much.



Even AQW used to be a nice game at first, then every release looked like a simple excuse to make more cosmetics.



The berserker killer -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 8:56:04)

Well I wouldn't mind a ED 2.0 but you're seriously overestimating how easy it is to get more players online with just 5/6 simple releases. Thats all it takes to turn this game around in terms of fun.

-NPC Hard mode

-Faction rewards when winning daily/Dom

-Kill streak Cheevos

-Return Flags during Cooldown

-Hardcore Daily mission for Champion Set (I posted this before)

-And Faction Co Leaders who can kick/add players but cant disband.

Thats really all it'll take to get it started. From there you can tack on more simple features that will enhance these features such as:

-Notebot option to track each and every players wins in your faction

-Personal win counter

-Personal %shower

-A Rank Shop where you can purchase items based on your rank (Warrior, Emperor, Grand Emperor, Legend)

-2v2 Boss Battles

-Post Top 3 players to beat "_______" in "x" amount of turns


Then there are rare promos you can make that can include different weapons such as:
-Brachylagus' invisble sword

-Necronaut Clemeks invisible Gun

-An invisible Aux too maybe

-An armor with a cape (Saevas)

Or they could include permanent versions of the limited cores such as:

-The Titan Cores

-The Avalanche core

-The +6 Cores

You can even cross game by bringing ultra rare AE things such as:

- Blade of Awe

- Artixs Paladin Axe (with that exact name to make it unique)

And for those saying that they're tired of seeing the same old moves, then switch it up! To do this you DO NOT HAVE to create new moves. Take them from the npcs like:

-Switching Davarrils energy beam with Plasma Bolt

- Or switching Bm fireball with Black Abyss' physical energy beam

- Or switching BM overload with that under the ground shot that Davaaril does.

You dont have to waste your time creating new moves when there are a ton of moves already in game that highly resemble the stats of the classes (I tested them out).

The possibilities are endless. Simple features to make that would be extremely time consuming, efficient and fun for players. You would have a good couple months to even go on vacation if half of these things were released. Theres no excuse as to why a promo cant be released once every 2 months. You have more than enough content. Theres no reason as to why you offer players a chance to rank up (Emperor etc) yet they cant purchase special gear for it to show it off.

EDIT: The thing is that ED is like a cake. You guys make it pretty on the outside by drowning us in art and colors and complexity to the point where there is too much frosting and not enough cake. By cake I mean the good simple stuff that players can really feast off of at the end of the day. Yet you guys keep changing the color and shape of the frosting, and keep tacking things on until now we're just left with a cake full of frosting which may seem sweet and awesome for a bit until you become sick of it.



Squrwogrona -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 10:10:30)

@Ranloth

Sure, I can get behind a short term project, testing waters etc. Just that some posts here and some tweets there imply that ED is bad bcs of flash and that is not true; sure maybe unity ED would be helluva lot easier to roll updates out for or whatever, but currently ED is not bad bcs of Flash, but bcs pushing out cosmetics and little else; at least we know that balancing ranks is in the pipeline.

I also get that Titan and co. maybe needed a breath of fresh air (coding-wise) so they did this pet project, I'm ok with that, just all this tweeting and discussion has little to do with actual reasons why ED curretly sux, and if there is something mentioned, it is vague. F.e. "We're aware that ED has some issues". It just seems too much like trolling. Anyone playing ED knows that.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 10:32:28)

Well, lack of features is partially to blame on Flash, due to engine limitations. So in a way, it is right, but not exactly. Lack of players, however, is to blame on Flash for the most part; yes Omega is also to blame, and some decisions made - there's no denying that - but the whole Flash issue has had bigger impact on ED, and AE alike.

This isn't blaming everything on Flash, no. It's more or less explaining the reason behind the move to Unity, and why now.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 10:52:34)

@Squrwogrona The thing with the dev's saying they are aware of issues is that every issue is ranked so to speak. How damaging is the issue to the game and what other issues need to be addressed before this issue can be fixed correctly?

The two big things that come to mind are Legendary Ranks doing a number of new players to late game and jugg being unplayable in the late game. Well Legendary Ranks effect the power of the jugg in late game so we need to fix legendary ranks before we start fixing jugg otherwise we will just break jugg all over again. I know there are other things we need to fix because I have TBK's list right below me but I see a lot of PvP things in that list but I don't see why we would make PvP more rewarding when we turn around and make it unfairly punishing when you enter the late game.

@TBK I'm not going to say your list isn't important because I know a lot of those features would be very nice even if I don't know how they would work(Co-leader being one because that idea has been vetoed due to past exploits) but before we go adding rewards to PvP we need to make sure PvP is playable at all levels. It is hard to say this is currently true when you still hear people suggesting PvE until Rank # instead of PvP.

Also the dev's working on BioBeasts isn't changing the workflow for items in the pipeline because aside from physically adding it to the game files we have teams that can... You've all heard this speech before so I'm going to say you the time by writing this sentence is is longer than actually finishing the speech because I was way to serious in this post and I can't stand it [:D]



The berserker killer -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 11:00:54)

But that road to making PVP playable at all levels wont be reached ANYTIME SOON. Make the game fun first and then spend time focusing on balance



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 11:08:07)

@TBK Before we talk timelines the Dev's are releasing a road map for the future of EpicDuel this afternoon and we will see roughly when the Legendary change is planned because that is the biggest roadblock in making PvP playable at all levels

Source <clicky



AQWorldsFarmer -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 11:37:17)

So can someone clear up to me what this "Epicduel 2" talk it about?



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 13:00:56)

@AQWorldsFarmer it is the theoretical evolution of EpicDuel into the Unity engine. It is not being worked on but it came from the FAQ and the communities comments about an EpicDuel sequel.

This is the direct quote from the FAQ about EpicDuel 2
quote:

Q: Why are you developing this and not EpicDuel 2 or EpicDuel Mobile?
A: Since the EpicDuel team is still very new to Unity, we decided to develop a small-scope mobile project to learn the basics of the platform. So far, we like what we see. Unity is far more powerful than Flash ever was and we’re learning more every day.

A project of the scale of EpicDuel 2 would be a monumental task. By focusing on a smaller project, we can avoid scope-creep and work through the entire process from conceptualization to a public launch quickly, building our team’s confidence toward larger projects.



Squrwogrona -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 14:02:04)

@Ranloth @OWA

Thanks for bearing with us; now you mentioned that some flash AE games are in red numbers, is ED among them? Playerbase is smaller for sure, but most of us longtimers are still buying varium now and then.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 14:24:12)

Nope. In fact, EpicDuel is doing pretty well - despite the decline in playerbase. That's why pulling the plug on the game, would be the same as shooting yourself in the foot. It's important we keep the game going for as long as possible, instead of trying to go completely Mobile and ditch it.

As it stands, AQW and ED are the two most popular AE Games - so, I'd say it must be doing well if that's the case, which it is.



Lord Machaar -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 14:51:55)

We can't deny that Unity is the next big thing, it's a multiplatform engine, and unlike Adobe Flash it is getting better and better day after another, but I want to talk about multiplatform a bit.
The latest AE mobile games (AQ dragons and Battle Gems) were pure imitations of other famous games, AQ dragons = Cookie cliker, and Battle gems = Candy crush, with a little warrior of yours on top of the board.
I'm pretty sure AE has made these games just to put itself in the playground with other mobile gaming beasts, I mean AQ dragons and battle gems will be available on browser soon, but here is the thing, both of these games are nowhere near 1% of the depth of neither AQW nor ED, and this is the problem, if you want to make a multiplatform game, you should take in consideration that each and every platform has some requirements, I'm not talking about PC/PS4/XBOX ONE here, because these gaming consoles aren't sure easy to work with, but atleast they give you possibilities, but sadly it's not the case for mobile gaming, yes some new mobile phones are beasts, and you can even play PS4 games on it, but we are here talking about targetting a bigger number of gamers, which means making a game that works at all mobile devices, which means in the end, AE will end up making shallow games such as Candy crush, which I frankly must say, I won't be playing on my PC nor browser.

So here is the thing, saying that unity is a multiplatform is good, till here it's good, but when we take a closer look at these platforms, and once again I'm not talking about PS4 and xbox One because surely AE isn't aiming for these consoles, I'm saying, PCs and Mobiles, PCs are all good, they can run games smoothly with unity on your browsers, but sadly not all mobile phones can, especially if we are talking about a game with depth in it, which is AQ3D, but here is the question, is it going to be playable on all mobile phones? Sure not, a game with such depth and on top of that a 3D game, AQ3D must be pretty good to fight big whales (games that only function on strong mobile phones such as real racing 3, FUT 15...)

So AE in general (ED team also) has 2 options:
- Make shallow games for the rest of their lives (biobeasts - AQ dragons - Battle gems) and frankly wait for their luck to smile for them, which what happened with flappy bird team and angry birds team, and make a profit out of it. But this means they will lose all their audience on the browser, because frankly I don't think many will play these shallow games on their browser or PC while they can play better games.
- Make big games, AQ3D, worth playing on both your PC and mobile phone, but sadly not all mobile phones, which means targeting the much harder audience down there, making AE fight with big whales down there, and sure such big games come with great sacrifices, that's what we see in the making in AQ3D, AE is suffering to bring this game down.



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