RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (Full Version)

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doomkiller98 -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 15:15:03)

Ranloth I have a question. So the devs knew that flash was dying right? Why the crap did they waste 3 months on omega instead of switching over to unity back then. Or was unity not out yet?

~Doom



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 15:22:28)

A helpful quote from Korin, who is working on AQ3D now:
quote:

To reiterate, Adobe announced they were dropping mobile development since mobile devices didn't want to use it anyway since it's a CPU and battery hog.

When Unity heard this, they decided not to invest time and effort into making a Unity plugin that would let Flash load Unity content. When that was announced, AE decided to hold back on AQ3D.

Now that Flash is continuing to die off, it's making less and less sense to create content on it. It's not an attack on browser games, but more on how browser games are played. There are more options lately like HTML5 which requires no plugin to play. It just runs purely in your browser. Unity has been working on an HTML5 export so you may not even need a Unity Player plugin either but I don't think it's fully functional yet.

So Unity is actually growing and the biggest threat it has now is the same threat it's caused. For years, game engines have been inaccessible to the smaller development team because of the cost. Unreal would cost companies millions to license. Because Unity has gotten so popular and powerful, Unreal has now gone free. So Unity has no reason to stand down. It's created a great competition.

The biggest threat to AE games is market saturation. There are loads of mobile games and less and less browser games. AE as a whole is trying to cater to both browser AND mobile, which would be completely impossible using Flash. So switching gears to an engine that can port to both web and mobile is essential for us and Unity is best suited for that.

Don't confuse it with us giving up on our legacy games but at some point, Flash will never be updated and computers won't even natively support it and those games will one day go the ways of MS-DOS games that don't get updated either. Re-released? Maybe. But the originals will eventually get stuck behind simply because of advances in technology and you don't want to be the last one off the sinking ship when everyone else got off on the lifeboats of innovation.

TL;DR; Unity is going strong. Adobe is abandoning Flash. We need to flow WITH innovation and not constantly play catch-up and sometimes that will be at the cost of not updating our older games as often as we'd like to, but while still updating them in some capacity until it's no longer feasible.

If that doesn't answer your question, post it in: http://biobeasts.artix.com/faq/

Devs will be answering all the questions tomorrow, so if we (Guest Team) can't answer it on here / via the Livestream we're doing right now. We will answer it on Friday.



Thylek Shran -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 15:53:41)

Its obvious that ED is a dying game and that AE (basically Artix) thinks that the future
lies in mobile games. Personally I hate mobiles and all this new vogue stuff as they
are a serious threat to health and privacy and so I will never play games on them.

As Flash does no longer get supported by Adobe why dont convert ED and all the other
AE Flash games into Unity or HTML 5 or whatever is the future browser game technology ?
Personally I don´t see a big future in mobile games as the displays and operation comfort
are much to small. Also it has been noted that the game market there is saturated already.

quote:

The biggest threat to AE games is market saturation. There are loads of mobile games and less and less browser games.

The AE strategy is unlogical. They want to invest more into an already saturated market
even that this is their biggest threat. AE should invest more into browser games as most
of them are rubbish and very small. AE browser games belong to the best on the market.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 16:01:02)

Few more quotes from NightWraith and Rabble regarding why porting wasn't done nor will be, at all:
quote:

I'll echo Rabble's comments. If it were easy to port Flash to Unity, there would already be an AQ Mobile, DF Mobile, etc... We wish it were that easy, but it's not. All of the code would need to be thrown out and rebuilt and the art assets would need to be converted into a format Unity could use. By working on a smaller project, we can learn the entire process of building a Unity game from start to finish with less chance of encountering staggering roadblocks.

quote:

I'm glad you think so highly of our abilities! The reality is that Unity is a vastly different platform than Flash, and our art assets and code would not port over in any straightforward way. There's also always the expectation that EpicDuel 2 or ED Mobile would be at least as large as current ED is. Taking on a project that large without any prior experience with Unity would be extremely unwise since we would have to learn absolutely everything. With a smaller-scope project we can focus a smaller slice of that knowledge and not have to worry about the monumental tasks such as server development, security, connection stability, etc.

quote:

You're still vastly underestimating the time required to do what you're saying. Trust me, if we had an easy way to port ED over the mobile devices, we absolutely would as soon as possible.

To take each of your points individually:
1) Sprite sheets and animation. As Korin demonstrated (better than I could), it's not a simple task to move anything into Unity without a massive file size and rework issue. Nearly everything is animated, and animations in Unity function differently than Flash so none of that would port smoothly or look good without so much rework that we're basically recreating every single item, class, skill, interface, button, etc. That alone is a staggering amount of work that would take months, not to mention that a lot of it is no longer up to the level of quality we would be happy with due to the natural increase in skill we've seen over the years.

2) We would not be happy just porting ED onto a phone and calling it a day. We've learned a lot over the years about design, gameplay, clarity, etc, and would want to build that into the game to make it better where we can. Again, we'd essentially be building a new game, even if it had a lot of the same fundamental elements to current ED.

3) C# actually is significantly better for development than JavaScript. It has better performance, is easier to test and debug, and is generally more feature-rich for the types of stuff we're doing. AS3 is not a scripting language, and across AE the majority of our Unity codebase is done in C#. The learning curve for us is almost negligible, so that's not the issue. The problem is that no matter what language we choose, it's not AS3, and it's not on web and so on, so everything would require a complete rewrite. Even if we were still able to use ActionScript, the game would necessarily have to be so different that our existing codebase would not be terribly useful. Our server code is also done on a MASSIVELY outdated platform that is no longer supported officially, so that is out the window.

All in all, you have to trust us that we've considered in great depth what kind of effort would be involved in a project like ED Mobile, and it would be immense, regardless of what shortcuts we tried to take. That on top of trying to learn an entire new tech stack is a recipe for disaster. We would rather take a more sensible approach and continue supporting ED instead of trying to replace it.



zion -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 16:24:04)

I am going to reiterate my sentiment from the faq page.

I think this game will be cute but it has no chance of success. The mobile market is extremely saturated and it will have no way of standing out.

Titan and nightwraith have years of development experience when it comes to a random-heavy pvp cyberpunk fighting game based on classes, attribute points and skill trees.

ED mobile could have a chance at success because:
1) These devs could draw on years of experience and not duplicate mistakes already made with the browser game,
2) You instantly will have thousands of ED players migrate to the mobile app which will generate an initial buzz.

Titan and Rabble learn C#. Nightwraith and Charfade learn Unity-compatible sprites/models/textures/animations. Work towards a half-baked biobeasts as part of your learning. Then build ED 2.0!

Points to ponder:
1) Many assets can be converted and/or adapted to the Unity version. (Yes it may be tedious but oh-so-rewarding).
2) Unity will provide a more exciting experience (camera zoom-ins and slow-motion kills anyone?).
3) The battle mechanic needs a re-write anyway, so might as well do it for the new game in C#.



The berserker killer -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 16:24:51)

Can we have just one rare promo? jesusss mannnn



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 16:27:45)

quote:

BioBeasts Promo Pack in EpicDuel
We saw quite a few people in the comments section of BioBeasts’ FAQ asking about a possible EpicDuel Promotional Pack celebrating the launch of our mobile game. We love this idea so we’re running with it. You can expect a BioBeasts-themed EpicDuel Promo Pack to premiere around the launch of BioBeasts.

Here you go, Ghost God. From the new DNs.

The reason why we didn't have any new promos until now, is because of BioBeasts - they are time consuming to create and... I'll just take a quote from the BioBeast FAQ:
quote:

We've also updated EpicDuel with the Heartbreaker Saga 2, Rabbits Return, another war (with a war coming up shortly), a prize code system, more daily missions, new boss fights, and all the returning rares and promotional items from past events.

Promo packs are super-exciting, but they take a huge amount of development time to build, test, balance, and market. To say BioBeasts is directly responsible for the lack of promos ignores all the content we have released since Frozen Fury.

I can't say when the game will be out, but as we get closer to being confident about release date of the game, we will be more specific about it; season, and then the month.



Drianx -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 17:07:47)

Dear Ranloth,

Epicduel has NOT lost most of its loyal players because of dying Flash.

Epicduel has lost most of its loyal players because of constant disappointment and devs ignorance towards player feedback.

Trying to blame it on Flash is lame.

My personal opinion (as an Epicduel beta player and Ultimate Enhancer - you can check my real-money payments history if you want) is that devs are exploring an escape for their own failure.

AQW is not a developers failure, but Epicduel is. It is pointless denying it. And it has nothing to do with Flash dying or not.



The berserker killer -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 20:38:14)

quote:

Promo packs are super-exciting, but they take a huge amount of development time to build, test, balance, and market


Ranloth please understand you do not need cored weapons to be a promo. You just have to have something that people want (I.e. The tank promo) and we will buy it for 50 bucks no problem. Blade of Awe Promo set? We'll buy it because its the Blade of Awe. Saeva Armor Promo? We'll buy It because the armor is sick. Permanent titan cores and Whiteout Core promo? We'll buy it because its a permanent version. Brachylagus' and Necronaut Clemeks invisible weapons promo? We'll buy that because its an invisible weapon! Take one chance and implement that invisible weapo promo (No cores whatsoever) and I guarantee you players would buy it. Same with permanent versions of limited cores and epic armors like Saevas. Especially epic weapons like the Blade of Awe.

Just give it a shot. You literally have nothing to lose. We're basically telling you to take our money for cooler stuff.

And that's another thing. You guys say that its time consuming and expensive to switch ED over to unity but wouldn't it be worth it? Bringing back a thousand players? If its "expensive" theres alot you can do such as return gifting or create more promos. You have a team full of artists and youre telling me that they cant collaborate on something epic and detailed enough that players would buy it without a core? They can't create a Pyro Armor that has burning flames animation on it in battle? You cant create a "Mirv" armor promo that would shrink or enlarge your players size (equippable of course) or even get permission from Dage or Galanoth and release a Dage/Galanoth set (Galanoths armor, sword, helm, and a flying dragon bike)? Thats like 15 promos I just made that didn't include cored weapons that players would buy simply because they're cool and rare.

You guys are making this too hard on yourselves.



WhiteTiger -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/15/2015 22:19:10)

quote:

You guys say that its time consuming and expensive to switch ED over to unity but wouldn't it be worth it? Bringing back a thousand players? If its "expensive" theres alot you can do such as return gifting or create more promos.

Yes, it is worth it, however given the developers' limited experience working with Unity, it is not feasible to tackle such a large project at this time.

quote:

Q: Why are you developing this and not EpicDuel 2 or EpicDuel Mobile?
A: Since the EpicDuel team is still very new to Unity, we decided to develop a small-scope mobile project to learn the basics of the platform. So far, we like what we see. Unity is far more powerful than Flash ever was and we’re learning more every day.

A project of the scale of EpicDuel 2 would be a monumental task. By focusing on a smaller project, we can avoid scope-creep and work through the entire process from conceptualization to a public launch quickly, building our team’s confidence toward larger projects.


Nightwraith, Rabble and Korin have also explained in more detail why porting ED to Unity isn't possible right now in this discussion started by Zion.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/16/2015 2:15:49)

Tank Promo still took time to actually create, and had a few Bombs and Cores to compensate.

What's a difference between buying a coreless weapon for Credits, and for $50? There isn't any. Promos are meant to have cores, unless they are similar to the Tank Promo - but then, they also need something to make them appealing.
Permanent +6 cores won't happen. Even more so if they were Rare, with the promo - there's only so much you can do before something is gamebreaking and nerfed, and people hate promos getting nerfed, no? If they are ever released, they'd be weaker than +6. Invisible weapon? I can already see comments that we charge $50 for literally nothing. Saeva Armor? If Rev had created the Female version, it'd be released back last year - but he didn't, and he's not on the Team anymore. And so on.

You need to realise that unlike AQW, selling coreless items is more difficult. Here, cores matter and some items have them locked, so using a coreless weapon with standard cores, may make them worse in PvP. In AQW, you can add exclusive Quests to items, as well as bonus rewards, to make it more appealing - we can't. There is also time spent on marketing the items, and making sure they are promo quality - that alone would take a couple of days. A couple of days which can't always be sacrificed because other are prioritised.

It's not as simple as changing the promo screen, and adding the items there. At the same time, we can release all of the items you mentioned for Varium (read above first, in terms of why some stuff wasn't released) - this means Varium players get some exclusive items, and also may end up buying Varium, but not having to spend $50 for just one item.

Edit:
Before things are taken out of context, it does NOT mean we will be releasing the above items for Varium. There are currently no plans on what we do with some unreleased items.



The berserker killer -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/16/2015 7:03:51)

we have in game cores we can buy.. and the point is that you misunderstand the value of weapons/gear. their value in Omega comes from 1 out of man things. 1) wil it be rare? 2) is it different? 3) is it hard to get? 4) will I be one out of many players to have it?

If not promos then sure, just release them in-game/heomart. You're underestimating how efficient this would be, and you guys are literally sitting on content that it feels like you don't want to release.

Or if not 50 bucks then 25 bucks for these weapons/cores? Ive got no idea why you have mixed feelings about the +6 cores soI didn't even mention them. But 25 bucks for unlimited whiteout/titan cores? r 25 bucks for an invisible sword (your fists) and that cool invisible gun Necronaut Clemek has?

It's just sad seeing you guys underestimating your players.



nowras -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/16/2015 20:20:24)

i want to know ARE WE GOING TO HAVE A CHANCE TO TRANSEFERE OUR ACCOUNT IN ED TO ED 2?

I mean when the project ED 2 is finished not now..



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/16/2015 20:32:10)

I have to agree with Nowras on this one as well.

Cause I know for a fact that if players ended up having to start over and losing everything they spent their money/time working on because of this they aren't going to be happy. I know I would be furious if that happened.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/16/2015 21:08:07)

@Mother Chances are an ED2 would work the same way that AQ3D works. Unless every single item is remade in ED2 and it is really just a port a unity then you wouldn't be able to transfer over items.

That said it may be who of the dev's to transfer over some legacy items to the ED2 project when it happens. Things like Phase promos and maybe poll the player base for what gear would need to be brought over



WhiteTiger -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/16/2015 21:19:49)

In my mind, if ED 2 were to happen, it would be designed as an entirely new game instead of just a direct port of the same game to mobile devices. I wouldn't expect your items and progress to transfer over because it isn't just a new phase, or an add on to the existing game. Don't think of it as starting over in the same game, think of it as playing the next installment in the game, like GTA V from GTA IV. It's far too early to start speculating on what will and won't happen for ED 2 though, the project doesn't even exist yet.



The berserker killer -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/16/2015 23:04:55)

Thank God we have maybe 5 testers that actually play. 1/5 might actually be good and none of which spend countless hours on this game. None of which have been through the grind plenty of hardcore players have (if any, ill say only about 1 of you). But hey, you can always act like you test something ten release it to the public and nerf it once we use it better than your testers. nbd.

Extremely disappointed in where this game is going, Not difficult to make this game fun at all.



comicalbike -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/17/2015 4:12:16)

The berserker killer white tiger is a very good player and knows the game well, but i know what you mean we spend good money on promotions then they nerf them, they have been doing this for some time thats why a lot left, and now we have another problem how much do we spend on a game now flash is going and game has only a limited time left'. we waited for the big epicduel announcement even me, thinging great big changes coming cant wait,and if lots of you like me utterly deflated. but will see its last days out.



Lord Machaar -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/17/2015 11:11:18)

Biobeasts idea is not bad, me and my friends last summer bought a course about android and iOS applications, and how you can possibly win money after making these apps, ofcourse, I'm not a programmer, making an app requires atleast basic knowledge of programming, but the course came to explain how you can make apps wit 0 knowledge of programming, basically, the course suggests a famous site where programmers deposit their works, you buy a primitive app, the course also teaches you how to change the look of the app so it doesn't look like the original one, and many other steps on how to put your app in the google play store and apple store, the apps are for free, but you make money out of ads, after you sign a contract with google ads.

This is the idea basically, it took me 1 - 2 months to master the course, after that I was making 1 - 2k dollars per month, after college started I had to stop to focus more on college but my friends continued for more time, they were making up to 10k $ per month. Ofcoure this number looks small for US citizens but in my country, 1$ worths a lot.

Anyways, the idea I want to showcase here that, 3 guys with 0 knowledge of programming and with no talent were able to turn some big money in few months.
Experienced programmers like Titan and Rabblefroth will sure make a game of their own, and in weeks they can turn in a lot of money... Because finally it's not just experience that they need, which they didn't mention, they gain money also, and player base, all this to make a clear road to make ED 2.



Digital X -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/17/2015 12:20:05)

Is ED 2 just a maybe at this point? Or something that could happen, and would be a total refresh of what we know about ED?



Lord Machaar -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/18/2015 13:32:23)

I think it's still a maybe according to this Q&A:

quote:

Q: Why are you developing this and not EpicDuel 2 or EpicDuel Mobile?
A: Since the EpicDuel team is still very new to Unity, we decided to develop a small-scope mobile project to learn the basics of the platform. So far, we like what we see. Unity is far more powerful than Flash ever was and we’re learning more every day.

A project of the scale of EpicDuel 2 would be a monumental task. By focusing on a smaller project, we can avoid scope-creep and work through the entire process from conceptualization to a public launch quickly, building our team’s confidence toward larger projects.



Scyze -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/18/2015 16:00:16)

I know nothing about EpicDuel anymore and absolutely nothing about mobile games. However, I will say that Biobeasts doesn't look very eye catching to me. I had high hopes for this game after looking at the pictures for the beasts but the video made me look away. I will try the game out though, and I hope I can manage to stay with the game for a long time.

Other games such as Flappy Birds was very simple, and the only reason why I liked the game and kept playing was because I wanted to beat my highscore. This is how I play games where records exisit, that's the exact reason why I'm pushing myself further in a game called osu! right now. I like games which challenge me (even if it was something for all ages to play). Unfortunately, the previous AE games haven't made me feel like playing it as much as I can. When Battle Gems came out I played it for a few days but then I stopped playing it; I could only bare AQ Dragons for a day. Even though I didn't enjoy AQ Dragons, I still played because it was made by AE. I also bought the Founder pack for Battle Gems.

All I think of Biobeasts is an experimental game for the future of EpicDuel. People wanted a mobile version of ED and Biobeasts looks to be the stepping steps towards that. I'm not expecting anything much from this game since it just feels like a game that's been thought of overnight (the idea of it) and then developed over a few weeks (few months since ED has a higher priority). It just doesn't feel like a game that's had a lot of time spent towards it to make it a very good game (ignore graphics + coding). If mobile game app schools exists, I would expect games like Biobeasts to be made by a group in that school - only to learn and get better with the program being used.

These are just my opinions.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/19/2015 3:59:08)

I kinda see this as a good thing for epic duel itself.

Because putting resources into a separate game may keep players busy and put epic duel at an all time low player base which can mean they might actully get some time to completely overhaul the game.


I completely agree with those speaking of a new "epic duel 2".

Which should involve a complete overhaul of all class skills, skill cores, energy, hp , stat progression, the LOT!

Everything needs to be overhauled to make a system that works for all the existing features and can allow for new features to fit without it destroying balance and the games mechanics.

We have seen it before, with the removal of passives the huge strain on energy etc. should have resulted in a complete overhaul of the game instead they just swapped out passives and assumed all the other skills and stats will be fine.

Variety is at an all time low with classes more or less just similar versions of another with directly comparable stronger or weaker skills which results in a game of almost complete RNG or power gap advantage dominance.




I think most players would agree that the whole games mechanics need to change and I'm sure most would be willing to wait.
Heck I have been waiting for years for the game to become good again so it's no struggle to wait longer.





As for compensation/ transfer of accounts.

Perhaps they could do a similar thing to what runscape did when they overhauled their graphics and allow player to play the original (Epic duel 1) with nothing changed. Or they can play the new with their items and currency transferred. But as far as experience etc, it may be easier to reset it to 0. If not they could allow for a complete account tranfer which may call for a compensation for lost features.



doomkiller98 -> RE: =ED= April 14th, 2015 - EpicDuel: Biobeasts (4/19/2015 21:18:30)

As long as they don't make ed 2 p2w for the first 5 years like epicduel did I think it'll work better. Start the game as NOT p2w = happy player base from the start :D.



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