RE: Underdog Mode Really? (Full Version)

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The berserker killer -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 10:25:59)

Can you really just try to say things nicer man? We're all part of the community here. Like your every post is just so hostile. Im not trying to argue, just trying to have a discussion. I try to think hard about each and every response to you, or sometimes I don't respond at all in order to avoid a "argument" that I sense coming. I just come on forums to speak for other players who don't create one. I don't want to feel attacked or scared everytime I post something. You're like a bully man, and I could hit the block button but i'm just trying to have a discussion and I've never had this problem before.

Edit: I didn't read that post since I saw it wasn't directed towards me. But I did read the last part. I believe evreyones an important part of this community, you too, so can you just try to be nicer?



Uchiha Sarada -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 10:27:31)

TheBKiller:
quote:

Yea the primary and gun changes really killed diversity and easy access builds for new players who have no idea how to create a build. I hope this change can be reversed

Why Would You want to reverse this dattebayo? Its a possitive change to the game and made it better.


Machaar is right, The Higher ranked players should stop complaining because the boost of stats is actually small and not that big of a deal just look at this example: I hope you get what I mean Ghost, I really like your suggestions and I hope you can understand what i try to say, thank you.

quote:

I have a Rank 79 Account and before this underdog thing, I used to eat in battle the low ranks like a piece of cake with no skill but it also was very easy to destroy a low rank with the +6 Stat cores on Str, Dex, Tech,Support, which is way more than the last UnderDog Lvl.

How is this underdog thingy possibly make the opponent harder to defeat than an opponent with +6 stats cores on everything? Opponents I used to beat very easy with no skill at all before the underdog update. I think what made the real impact was the nerf to primary dmg and gun dmg stat changes, Dattebayo.



Lord Machaar -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 11:07:07)

I have replied in a very polite manner, once again I replied to the ideas and the calculations you gave, ideas that aren't yours really since they are shared by "some" players, false ideas that I just wanted to correct, I didn't target you nor your personality, and in the end I have said that, the post wasn't for you, it was for anyone who accuses the underdog mode for being unfair with sadly false and invalid arguments.

All I know is there are more low rank players out there enjoying the game once again, more builds, more classes in PVP modes, the game is slowly moving to a better state, if the minority is sad for losing a 2% or 3% win ratio, then I say it is totally worth it.

Looking forwared for this mode to be used in 2vs2 and in the juggernaut battle mode.



The berserker killer -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 11:28:15)

Ok I appreciate your reply on the manner. However I will give up my ranks anyday to abuse this underdog system.

quote:

Once again, Devs insanely underestimated this mode. My current resistance is 263. If I add 5 points (If I were underdog), it would be 275. What does that mean in total?

-I get 12 points on resistance

-5 points on technology

- increased damage on skills that increase with technology

- higher % to deflect

- higher % to not be deflected

-8 minimum damage on my bot in a game where matches are literally decided by a point.

Here, ill do it again on a different stat. My current dex is 266. If I add 5 points (If I were the underdog) i'd get:

-17 points on my defense



-5 points on dexterity

- increased damage on skills that increase with dex

- 7 more gun damage on a game where you can win by a single point

-higher % to block

-higher % to connect strike




@sarada, I'd reverse it simply because it killed diversity in a game where we literally have to hide builds from devs or else those builds might end up getting nerfed. I shouldn't feel scared to make a build public for fear of it being nerfed just like the last 3 builds I released



Uchiha Sarada -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 11:32:41)

I have a rank 70+ and a rank 2 alt and I have to say that I win way more with my Higher rank, i love my ranks, they are way better than this underdog thing Dattebayo.

Underdog made lower ranks harder to kill but its fine i got enought free wins already.

And another thing, with my rank 2 the lvls 37 are having a good chance and they are far weaker even with 10 extra stats.



The berserker killer -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 11:38:15)

Everyone has their own preferences, that's a given. I would prefer stat boosts over the current Legendary Mode



Lord Machaar -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 11:45:22)

@Uchiha Sarada
Don't worry, they will get used it, let the time do its job [:D]. Atleast you and I are saying some statements based on experience, you played with 2 accounts with different ranks, and for me, in order to tell that the underdog more is totally fair, I was on the leaderboards for 3 - 4 days in a row, I didn't almost 1000 battles. Unlike "some" who build up their statements from "nothing".



Uchiha Sarada -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 11:46:29)

There are stat boost cores you can buy. And lets say there's a feature which lets you be the underdog that works this way:

you choose underdog or Legend mode then go into a battle, you are rank 80 with all maxed and you face a rank 1, because you Picked the underdog, the boost the underdog got of alot of stats goes into you and all your ranks advantage goes to the rank 1 for that battle. Do you like this? Or do you get what im trying to say? My English is bad I'm from Japan Dattebane.

This Feature is for the high rankers which can choose what thing to have. Thanks Ghost.



The berserker killer -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 12:06:24)

Youre English is perfect! I would have never guessed it wasn't your first language!

Yes I know what you mean, however the +6 cores cost. Underdog is free. Now if +6 unlimited promo came out, id have no problem but 1500 credits is very costly for something that my opponent is getting for free.



Uchiha Sarada -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 12:09:02)

You didn't give me feedback of the suggestion i made Dattebane :/



The berserker killer -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 12:14:44)

So basically your asking would switch my ranks with a rank 1 in a PVP? Absolutely, especially if I had +6 cores and eternal enhance equipped.



Uchiha Sarada -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 12:16:51)

Can you make the suggestion? cuz im bad suggesting unlike you, you're like the best suggester.



The berserker killer -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 12:19:49)

I can try but I think that there will be engine limitations, and both players would have to agree to the switch. I think what would be possible is a feature that allows high rankers to unequip their ranks. I wonder if ranloth could answer whether or not underdog mode applies when your opponent is just a higher rank or if he has purchased the ranks....



Uchiha Sarada -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 12:22:27)

Why both players need to agree? the one that gets the underdog is getting free stats from nowhere so if the high ranker wants the stats he should take them and give his enemy his ranks stuff.



The berserker killer -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 12:40:02)

True, but then again its all about preference. If my partners a strength build then he probably wont want my ranks since my aux, bot, and gun ranks might be useless to him/her



King FrostLich -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 13:01:27)

After a year of inactivity, I once again will be coming back to play the game on June. Seems like alot of changes and such and noticed exquisite changes around. No worry, I'll be reading some of the posts here about this balance stuff.



Lord Machaar -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 13:27:12)

quote:

Absolutely, especially if I had +6 cores and eternal enhance equipped.


If and If and If, what if not? you still would like to play at low rank? having +6 cores costs a fortune, no one can do so, and if you the math, to equip +6 cores you need to spend 6k credits, and for 30 battles, which will grant you a 1.5k credits in average, making you lose 4.5k credits everytime you buy these cores.



I Underlord I -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 16:12:58)

There is no reason for players of higher ranks to "unequip" them, The berserker killer and Uchiha Sarada, considering the Underdog system grants nothing more than an appropriate but still small boost intended to help ensure that players of lower levels and ranks do not effectively become punching bags. It does not by any means equalize the rank difference -- and especially not the level difference -- in a given match, let alone grant the lower-level-or-rank player an "advantage" of any sort. This is simple mathematical fact. There are certain exceptions, but such cases, while undesirable and unfortunate, are frankly not very problematic.

As referenced above, it is certainly true that there are issues with calculation of effective level; this is most notable with, for instance, a Rank 29 player fighting a Rank 32 player. Ranloth already described the limitations and issues associated with resolving that concern, and in all honesty that issue is not nearly pertinent or damaging enough to warrant a nerf or removal of Underdog Mode -- especially when taking into consideration the fact that Underdog I is not noticeably better than two ranks.

There are also the concerns with people purchasing rank slots but not applying them as well as people buying the rank slots that affect only NPC battles before other slots; however, it is entirely the fault of the player in question, and it is likely and quite advisable that most people would first utilize the ranks that affect PvP, respectively.

I understand that the balance updates will take some time to get used to, but they are objectively for the better. With respect to Strength, builds that use the stat as a focal point are still very viable (Strike spam and all); they simply cannot be as readily abused as they were before, as Ranloth explained, nor can they additionally abuse sidearms. In regards to legendary ranks (as most concerns people have with Underdog seem to be attributed to Level 40), lacking the power to easily cripple almost all lower-rank-or-level players to the ground is not by any means "unfair."

If my tone in the above statements seemed harsh or antagonistic, I would like to sincerely apologize; such was assuredly not my intention. ^^



The Jop -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 16:26:53)

Oh, having 150 extra damage and 60 more defense/resistance is acceptable to you, but lower levels/ranks getting 3 or 4 bonus stat points is unbalanced? Sorry that you lost your huge advantage, but a PvP game shouldn't have one group dominating another with no balance. This is an effort to set more of an even playing field between people of different levels and ranks. Even with underdog mode, the player is still inherently weaker than their opponent if they used all their ranks or levels.



Stonehawk -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 17:48:19)

quote:

If my partners a strength build then he probably wont want my ranks since my aux, bot, and gun ranks might be useless to him/her


Now he pointed something important: We high ranks have flat damage advantage. The underdogs have extra stats that affects all % in a small way. But since most of the builds doesn't use all high stats, some rank points are not used. For example:

- a rank 60 Strength build uses high strength and dex, but low support and tech. It means the points on aux and robot doesn't make a difference in that battle. Meanwhile, a rank 1 with the EXACT SAME build got extra stats, having higher chance to block, deflect and crit. 2 points difference on tech and dex does a huge difference as I experienced!

My suggestion is to increase rewards when fighting and beating underdogs (rewards are so low in general). This encourage higher ranks to keep doing 1 vs 1, because they are usually in disadvantage as you can see in the example above. Getting same rewards they get for killing someone in the same rank or someone with lots of extra stats (I fought one with +3 strength and support/ +4 dex and tech, depending on the build they are harder than a rank 60 was!) this make us feel like being high ranked is a problem (and rank should be something good because it's not easy/fast to rank up!)




Lord Machaar -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 18:17:47)

quote:

- a rank 60 Strength build uses high strength and dex, but low support and tech. It means the points on aux and robot doesn't make a difference in that battle. Meanwhile, a rank 1 with the EXACT SAME build got extra stats, having higher chance to block, deflect and crit. 2 points difference on tech and dex does a huge difference as I experienced!


Treating the example you gave, a strenght build with high dexterity, 2 players using it, rank 50 vs rank 1.
- Rank 1 player has underdog mode level 5 (5 eLevels difference) which +3 on all stats. Rank 50 has 50 ranks.
------------------------------------Rank 50:(Ranks)-----------------------------------Rank 1:(Underdog mode stats)
Resistance:---------------------------+30 --------------------------------------------------------+6 / 8
Defense:------------------------------+30---------------------------------------------------------+6 / 8
Primary Damage:--------------------+30---------------------------------------------------------+6 / 8
Sidearm Damage:--------------------+40---------------------------------------------------------+6 / 8
Aux Damage:-------------------------+40---------------------------------------------------------+6 / 8
Robot Damage:-----------------------N/A---------------------------------------------------------+6 / 8
Block Chance:-------------------------0%---------------------------------------------------------~1%
Deflect Chance:----------------------- 0%---------------------------------------------------------~1%
Crit chance:----------------------------0% ---------------------------------------------------------~1%

Advantage given by ranks is still 5 - 4 times greater than the advantage given by the underdog mode, sure underdog mode stats give def/block/crit chance but they slim.
If you are frightened by 1%, what low rank players should say? When 50 ranks equal 5 eternal enhance cores, sure eternal enhance core give def/block/crit chance but no one buys eternal enhance core for small %, or yeah, this is not an advantage.



Uchiha Sarada -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 18:21:18)

StoneHawk:

quote:

a rank 60 Strength build uses high strength and dex, but low support and tech. It means the points on aux and robot doesn't make a difference in that battle. Meanwhile, a rank 1 with the EXACT SAME build got extra stats, having higher chance to block, deflect and crit. 2 points difference on tech and dex does a huge difference as I experienced!


A Rank 60 str build can always add legendary ranks to Medic and the Core discount and the aux dmg helps str users alot even with low support.

quote:

My suggestion is to increase rewards when fighting and beating underdogs


You're so funny, This is Gold, Good Joke. Why Would you increase the rewards you get from beating a player with less advantage than you? Wow, Sight.
Im a High rank and I would always keep the ranks instead of the underdog stuff, Maybe you need to learn how to play a bit and some strategy at some point, maybe im wrong.
And thats not an example Dattebayo.

Read my past experiences:

quote:

I have a Rank 79 Account and before this underdog thing, I used to eat in battle the low ranks like a piece of cake with no skill but it also was very easy to destroy a low rank with the +6 Stat cores on Str, Dex, Tech,Support, which is way more than the last UnderDog Lvl.

How is this underdog thingy possibly make the opponent harder to defeat than an opponent with +6 stats cores on everything? Opponents I used to beat very easy with no skill at all before the underdog update. I think what made the real impact was the nerf to primary dmg and gun dmg stat changes, Dattebayo.


quote:

I have a rank 70+ and a rank 2 alt and I have to say that I win way more with my Higher rank, i love my ranks, they are way better than this underdog thing Dattebayo.

Underdog made lower ranks harder to kill but its fine i got enought free wins already.

And another thing, with my rank 2 the lvls 37 are having a good chance and they are far weaker even with 10 extra stats.



Lord Machaar -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 18:29:55)

quote:

My suggestion is to increase rewards when fighting and beating underdogs.


Haha. I'm out. You don't want candies? How about we give you the underdog mode? Because as I can see all of your ranks can't help you to win.



Stonehawk -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 19:53:30)

I just think I'd prefer stats that increases skills, luck factor and weapons in a small scale than flat damage or defense. I'd rather have lvl cap increased normally to be able to make SKILLS STRONGER instead of this rank weirdness, I prefer stats than weapon damage, it's MY OPINION, sorry for showing it to the world, didn't know freedom of speech had faded away. By the way, I used to prefer Eternal Enhance (+2 on stats) than Eternal protection (+15 on defenses), I only changed because of that bug that it became +1 and I won't buy it back because bugs just makes me lose credits/varium. I accept a bit of respect.

And well, I'm not losing, I was thinking specially of the rank 100+ that kept losing to me because of that change but I forgot they fixed it... sorry, no need to crucify me.




The berserker killer -> RE: Underdog Mode Really? (5/24/2015 20:26:04)

quote:

I'd rather have lvl cap increased normally to be able to make SKILLS STRONGER instead of this rank weirdness, I prefer stats than weapon damage.


I'd have that, and id even support the idea of extra credits when beating underdog. We shouldn't get the same reward system as compared to a time when these same opponents were easier.

quote:

it's MY OPINION, sorry for showing it to the world, didn't know freedom of speech had faded away


My point exactly. We're simply stating our opinions and its like some people are attacking us for it.

quote:

I understand that the balance updates will take some time to get used to, but they are objectively for the better


No,there is no getting used to this. If it weren't for factions I can promise you the majority of high rankers wont pvp anymore. Feels like we're being crucified cause we decided to play the game. But hey, one step closer to equality and ten steps away from balance.



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