RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (Full Version)

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RageSoul -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/28/2015 9:59:50)

For Gamma Fire to be better than Infernal Overload in terms of damage , you need to use it more than 5 times , which means 21+ Rounds ( First Turn + 3 Turn Cooldown + follow-up use ) . Lasting that long where getting sprayed with a plethora of deadly colors is pretty much a dream to any build that isn't focusing on abusing the flawed numbering calculations of defenses . Now , i don't own the bot , but perhaps the so called "Special" needs a rework ( I could suggest one , but it might end up becoming an absurd hybrid of "Damage" and "Utility" )

Also , another reason that IA is more favored is that its special is burst and it quickly builds up compared to Gamma Bot's secondary attack , which is also the reason why both versions of the Cannon skills ( Plasma Cannon and Bunker Buster ) were nerfed ; they were capable of forcing stall builds to go to their deathbeds swiftly , and longer battles results in nasty comebacks of either side.

And lastly , it isn't guaranteed that one would be able to use the attack more than 5 times in a row without spending of Field Medic looping and not getting other effects that greatly affect its progression . Numbers about damage comparisons are already provided so there's no need for me to go deeper .

EDIT : changed amount of turns .



Dual Thrusters -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/28/2015 10:13:57)

@rage

You don't necessarily have to use gamma fire five times, because using it twice already does more damage than Infernal Overload. ( it does 210% damage if you use it twice).



..Jasmine.. -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/28/2015 10:21:08)

Don't compare Gamma bot with utility bots, meaning comparing gamma bot's special with bots other than IA will lead to nothing good.



RageSoul -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/28/2015 10:41:45)

@Dual
If you were to add up the 100% , yes it does , but the 5% isn't something that'll make up it's game changing lacking potential compared to the +20% bonus damage offer of Infernal Android on your later turns . Plus , what made IA favorable in the first place is its potential to force strategy on its special ( quickly ending the chances of your opponent is more convenient than just having higher DPS in later turns anyway ) , the DPS of IA is just the same with Gamma ( the normal attacks , not the secondary ones ) where the +5% or +10% can be ignored easily compared to instant 120% Total Damage on the second use .



The berserker killer -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/28/2015 11:20:44)

Gamma Bot has no limit. It definitely does not need a buff.All this will end up doing is giving an advantage to a small %of players and we all know how that has worked in the past. The game s no longer P2W, instead its free for all players to win equally no matter when you decide to start playing (or at least it is on that path). Buffing Gamma Bot will only make the game PLE2W (Play long enough to win).

Not supported. Only way i'd support is returning all promo bots damage to normal. You guyscomplained about bot damage so the devs made it all equal. Now that the damage is all equal im guessing some of you find it boring, now you're asking to buff specific bots and not others. Nahhhh



Lord Machaar -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/28/2015 11:31:50)

Mother1:

quote:

once again you forget that gamma fire does more damage than gamma punch. Even if it is 5% more it is still more damage.


Once again you have forgotten what I've said about that:
quote:

- Someone has "brought" RNG, I almost totally have forgotten about it, the damage interval dealt by any bot varies between (X and X+40) + the resistance interval (depends on your tech + many other factors but generally varies between 70 - 50), this means the damage interval is so huge, 5% is nothing, as it can go unnoticeable once again. This doesn't apply to infernal overload as 25% is superior than the damage interval.
- Gamma fire goes unnoticeable when your opponent is a bit tanky, where it is not the case when it come to infernal overload, IA's special attack is something noticeable, it does a significant amount of damage no matter how much your opponents' resistance. It is not the case for gamma fire.
- In case resistance is superior than defense by 5%, this means both special and normal attacks will deal the same damage, where in other bots, this won't be a problem, since the special attack will have a special effect that will still do a signicant "thing".


In such cases, nor the fact that gamma fire is spammable nor the 5% more damage it grants is "special". And here are some screen shots just in case you didn't understand what I said.
Gamma Punch: http://puu.sh/i3GLv/401f61266a.png
Gamma Fire: http://puu.sh/i3GKe/4a7c3fe779.jpg

Same opponent, in the same battle, gamma punch dealing more (or equal) damage than gamma fire, for various reasons, RNG, defense/resistance difference, etc... Is it the case for inernal android? for infernal overload? Infernal overload will still deal a pretty good damage no matter what case we are in it.

quote:

Answer only 3 and of those three how many of them can use them both more than once? Answer only the gamma bot.


What's the utility of gamma fire in this case? In fact, what is the utility of it being spammable? Isn't it a waste? Would it be more efficient to use any other bot, because frankly any normal attack of any bot can do the same damage as gamma fire and gamma punch in this case, but on top of that, the bot you will be using will have a real special attack?

I hope my point is pretty clear as testing shows the real facts, as many opinions are sadly based off theory.



Darkwing -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/28/2015 12:57:46)

The mistake is to compare gamma bot with IA.

Every bot in the game compared with IA needs a buff.



Lord Machaar -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/28/2015 16:51:27)

^ Check out the reply above you, I said if you compare gamma bot to any bot it will show you how much it needs a fix.



Ranloth -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/28/2015 18:03:59)

Just so you're all aware, we're keeping an eye on this since there are some really good arguments for and against buffing it. Personally, I'd be against it (i.e. agreeing with people who say it doesn't need a buff), but there are good points being made why it may need one, and they outweigh my opinion.

If only all balance discussions were like this; getting both sides of the spectrum and then acting upon it. Heh.



Mother1 -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/28/2015 18:09:50)

@ Lord machaar

You just contradicted yourself with your latest post you know that right?

IIRC you mentioned that we shouldn't compare the gamma bot to other robots that aren't purely offensive, yet with your latest post you mentioned if we compared the gamma bot to any bot it wouls show it needs a fix.

To be honest there are other bots out there that need buffing and i can name three off the top of my head.

Assault bot
Azreal borg
Bio borg

I rarely see these bots used in battle these days and I can think of several reasons for each of them.

Assault bot

Debuffs have been severely nerfed over the years in an attempt to nerf offensive builds. Not to mention with Necrosis and Armor piercing robot specials you can debuff opponents and the assault bot has no power over these. But putting this aside there is also the matter that shields are so strong that they can cover up debuffs quite easily so there is little to no use for cleanse even with the 5% buff in power.

Azreal borg

While not as in bad shape as the Assault bot, in a sense the Azreal borg even with it's recent buff still falls short for a few reasons.

1) The staff made it so several buffs (Hybrid armor, mineral armor, and plasma armor) immune to heart attack so it can't even nerf all buffs from the skill tree. At least the assault bot can cleanse out all non robot based debuffs.

2) The staff with their first non phase based omega promo made an Aux which has a core that does the exact same thing as heart attack and to boot it does more damage then heart attack. Heart attack does 60% damage where the aux does 85% with this core. This further devalues the robot core. At least none of the other bots have to deal with this issue.

Bio borg

God I see this bot even less than the Gamma bot, and unlike the Gamma bot which has the excuse of being ultra rare, the bio borg does coming into game. This is due to the bot itself having more ways around its special that when it first came out due to cores making it possible to avoid melee attacks. I hardly ever see anyone using this robot's effect because of this simple fact.

For all your complaining about the gamma bot being weak and needing a buff (Which if I am reading correctly is based off mostly off of the infernal android) it still does it's job which is being a regular multi damage bot where the user has a choice of using a physical or energy based attack which is still very useful and to be honest something I wished I had.



Lord Machaar -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/28/2015 18:18:29)

You probably haven't read my sentence right:

quote:

^ Check out the reply above you, I said if you compare gamma bot to any bot it will show you how much it needs a fix.


If you read the reply above you would totally understand what I meant.
Here is what I wrote:

quote:

***What's the utility of gamma fire in this case? In fact, what is the utility of it being spammable? Isn't it a waste? Would it be more efficient to use any other bot, because frankly any normal attack of any bot can do the same damage as gamma fire and gamma punch in this case, but on top of that, the bot you will be using will have a real special attack?

***Check out the screenshots if you haven't already to understand the quote.

In first half of my sentence I compared gamma bot to all other bots, but if you read clearly, aren't all bots deal damage? I compared gamma bot's attacks to normal attacks of all bots, ofcourse within the context of my screenshot, you clearly see that there is no difference between gamma fire and gamma punch, and assault bots normal attack, and I will put the same question, aren't all bots meant to deal damage? Ofcourse they do, and I didn't compare gamma bot to all bots, I said any normal attack of any bot, I haven't even brought up special attacks of these bots, and that means the comparison isn't wrong, which takes us to the second half of my sentence, given the fact that gamma bot's both attacks equal a normal attack of "any bot", that "any bot" actually still has a special attack. Which means gamma bot is useless, nor the 5% extra damage of gamma fire, nor the fact of it being spammable.
You can totally delete the second half, and the comparison will be clean, as I haven't compare the bot in its totality, but I compared its normal attack only, which all bots have in common, in fact I just have added up the second half to clear out any confusion.

I hope my point is pretty clear.

As for your post, this is a post related to gamma bot's fix, not assault bot or any other bot, just so we don't mix up things here, and if you create a new thread explaining why they need a buff, I agree with you, they need a buff, but once again, this is a post about gamma bot.



King Bling -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/29/2015 4:39:09)

True gamma bots special ability is to hit both physical as well as energy damage that too for infinite number of times, so yes it is super good and needs no buff. Dont compare two bots and then ask for a buff, because omega is all about equality so it should stay at where it lies now.



Ranloth -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/29/2015 4:46:24)

There's a difference between equality and balance. Both may be equal, but that doesn't make them both balanced due to various reasons: game meta, build fads, relying on other factors (e.g. debuffs nerfed over time; affected Assault Bot), etc. If it needs a buff, we will give it one - even more so considering there's a lot of data behind why it needs one, rather than pointing out the fact it's rare or should be equal. Buffs don't always mean "make it overpowered", and vice versa for nerfs.



Uchiha Sarada -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/29/2015 5:39:58)

Mother: The Bots You Mentioned do not deserve a buff at all, they have pretty good specials and just because is not used by alot of players doesn't mean it needs a buff, I know that the current meta of the game doesn't favor the bots you mentioned because of debuffs and all the unblockables attacks we have but these bots were designed to to that work and they do it pretty good, Gamma bot is just a dmg bot and the special is not even noticeable when compared to the normal attack and even worse, the addition of robot dmg for ranks makes the special way less noticeable. For a dmg bot only, it does its job kinda bad and its outperformed by others dmg bots, A Buff for the gamma bot shouldn't be something huge, just a simple buff for the bot because it needs it, it doesn't mean it will be OP.

King: You have to stop saying the same thing about equality on all your post of the thread because it makes no sense, your concept of equality is wrong for this game dattebayo.



The berserker killer -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/29/2015 6:21:17)

The bot needs no kind of buff. It covers all of your bases in battle by allowing you to freely choose between an energy and physical attack. Buffing this bot isn't balance or equality but simply unfair as you will be granting an extreme advantage to a small% of players (just like enhancements and any p2w phase before this). Thought the games was trying to be fair to everyone



Uchiha Sarada -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/29/2015 6:28:19)

TBK: Extreme Advantage? you don't even know the buff it will get if they will buff it.
Unfair? Please Explain



Ranloth -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/29/2015 6:29:02)

quote:

Buffing this bot isn't balance or equality but simply unfair as you will be granting an extreme advantage to a small% of players

↓

quote:

Buffs don't always mean "make it overpowered", and vice versa for nerfs.


If it doesn't need a buff, explain why so - preferably with some data, like Variation, Mother1, Machaar, etc, have done. We don't go off making changed based on "yes, people like it and it's overpowered, but people like it!" but actual data and feedback. Where we fall short off feedback, we rely on this section. Besides, buff can also be given to its Physical attack, making both deal 105% damage - albeit confusing some players why a standard attack core deals above average damage - since they are both cores, and both can work differently.

Gamma Bot should be a viable option to use, but by no means a superior ones over other Bots - especially since it's perma-rare so it'd be unfair. But buff ≠ making something overpowered & nerf ≠ making something underpowered.



romanu -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/29/2015 7:15:48)

The gamma bot is made for versatility in damage.

Most bots are locked to one damage type.

Most bots have a special that can only be used once.

Let's say the enemy has over 500 defense and you have physical damage bot? good luck with him.

Gamma bot has the option to use energy attack instead on him while you do 30 damage on the enemy with the bot(except rage).



It deals more damage since many enemies have better defense then ressitance and the other way around.


The special of this bot it that u can pick the damage type or if the attack can be deflected or blocked
, on top of 5% damage. Other focus builds don't get to pick that.



Lord Machaar -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/29/2015 10:15:13)

^ When we start speaking about "cases", we are no longer talking about a special attack here. Special attacks are meant to be special no matter what type of builds/classes you are facing? Isn't it the case for all bots?

If you will use a bot for one type of builds, the one you just mentioned, would that be beneficial? As you stated, and if I understood your idea, you are talking about dex abusing bulds, sure, using gamma bot will give the ability to preform safe attacks unlike IA does, but also IA still has its special attack, no matter what the circumstances are, infernal overload will still deal a significant amount of damage.
You haven't even brought up two or three builds, in fact even the build you said has some exceptions, because usually dex builds tend to have high resistance also, in case of dex tech mages, technician is enough to make any bot hits 30, the thing here, all bots except gamma bot, as all bots will still have their special attack if their normal attack deals 30, but gamma bot then will hit 30 damage with both of its attacks.



romanu -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/29/2015 10:52:02)

You keep the comparison with the bot that needs a nerf IA.

That bot needs a lower damage with special anyway.











Variation -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/29/2015 10:54:21)

quote:

Gamma Bot should be a viable option to use...

This. I find it extremely odd how some people are also riding on the fact it can use both damage types and therefore it's extremely viable. That theory applied is hugely laughable in most cases considering most builds have around the same amount of defense and resistance. For the times they don't have around the same amount of defense and resistance one might be in situations where they would still need to attack the higher defense. If for example, you're against a strength build with high dexterity and lower defense than resistance it would be stupid to use Gamma Punch and risk a block. There are so much factors that come into play with the ability to use both damage types and the amusing part is just because Gamma Bot has that doesn't make it viable.

The robot special is what needs to be addressed. Some people should really look beyond the fact it's spammable and I surely hope they can look beyond the extra 5% damage it does which is extremely negligible. The problem is the special isn't really so special when compared to pretty much all of the other robot specials. I mean if someone asks one, "Why are you using Gamma Bot?" Would one say "So I can rock that 5% deflectable attack!" Seriously, the special is so laughable especially when you have robots that can literally destroy the game for the opposition if those robots are in the right hands.

I'm not asking for the robot to have the power of one time usage specials such as Armor Annihilator, Necrosis, Infernal Overload, etc. because I do believe the special should remain spammable. The robot special simply needs to become special. If that means making it undeflectable which will not overpower it, or when it's used the cooldown on the normal attack becomes two instead of three, stuff like that. I'm personally for making it undeflectable, which will absolutely not overpower it. The thing so many people seem to overlook when it comes to 100% successful hits (in the case of having synergy with technology) is that it now becomes slightly counterproductive dumping loads of points into technology (slightly because robot damage improves with technology). So many people take on paper theories out of context when it comes to balancing in general. In the case of Gamma Bot which I have access to it's clear that yet again players are taking what it can do out of context with respect to balance. One cannot argue that it has both P/E attacks and therefore it's balanced without proper justification. One cannot argue that it's simply a "pure damage" robot and therefore it's balanced without proper justification. One cannot argue since it's rare it should or shouldn't be buffed period. One cannot pose all of these balance theories that they cannot even test and expect that they're even right. This is a balance thread and some of us are here to treat it as such.



The berserker killer -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/29/2015 13:10:26)

quote:

Extreme Advantage? you don't even know the buff it will get if they will buff it.
Unfair?


After beta ended I really didn't log on much, besides just to claim the phase achievements on my beta account so I don't know much about this bot. What I do now, in general, is that the majority of builds that I have seen from day one of playing this game have a weakness. That weakness may either be their defense or resistance. Most of the time one of those stats will be lower than the other. That's a given. I also know a few more things.

I know that due to the recent balance changes it is more difficult for someone who is not focus or who does not have a sufficient amount of technology to deflect someone who is focus or who has a sufficient amount of technology.

I am also aware of the fact that Gamma Bot has two attack moves. Not only that, but that both attack moves are spammable.

Now i'm not one to completely shoot down an idea. I am all for adding unique features to the game that will make it interesting for all players or at least a large majority of them. However due to my previous statements I think it's fair to assume 3 things:

1) Individuals who use a focus build with Gamma Bot have a small chance of being deflected.
2) Individuals who use Gamma Bot are versatile in PVP and can easily adapt to taking advantage of their opponents weakness as they can spam both attacks
3) Due to the increasing amount of Focus Builds in this game, along with the fact that all but a few of the bots currently deal the same damage, it is safe to assume that individuals who use an effective focus build not only have a small chance of being blocked but they also have an advantage over their opponents when it comes to versatility.

As I have said before i'm not one to completely shoot down an idea. That only discourages people and limits the production of the game. I am all for adding unique features to the game that will make it interesting for all players or at least a large majority of them. So I am suggesting one out of 3 things here:

1) Make every bots special spammable. However, if the special is an attack Special then it can only be used on that same individual one time. Bots who have attacks that are already spammable(Hazard, Gamma, etc) regardless of their opponent, will remain so. What this means is that every other bots special can be used once on each enemy in modes such as 2v2 or Jugg. This doesn't necessarily have anything specifically to do with Gamma bot but if the issue here is "How boring bots have become" then this could be a viable solution.

2) Raise Gamma Punch power to 107%.Given the fact that most Focus builds tank technology, their one weakness is the fact that they can be deflected. Sure, this suggestion is greatly discriminating against every other player who does not have gamma bot but, if a buff were to happen, it should be this.

or

3) Since the Bots special is, indeed, a special attack then it should be treated as such. I recommend that the bots special is made not deflectable however also lowered to only 100%.

Those are my suggestions. I mean lets face it:


quote:

One cannot argue that it has both P/E attacks and therefore it's balanced without proper justification. One cannot argue that it's simply a "pure damage" robot and therefore it's balanced without proper justification


.....however it's the truth. The bot is extremely versatile and deals excessive damage


EDIT: IMO the bot doesn't need a buff however I do not own the bot so im speaking off of just what ive heard



Variation -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/29/2015 13:50:00)

^Gamma Bot's normal attack deals the same amount of raw damage as any other robot's normal attack (minus the Golden Yeti) and its special realistically deals just a little more. As I said it would take one 800 robot damage to even get the +40 extra damage legendary ranks could give. I'm not too sure how you find that to be "excessive damage". Especially when the special is not only deflectable, but often does around the same damage as its normal attack. That is the reason why I'm here in defense for Gamma Bot. Nothing it does in its current state is worth me or anyone else using it on some of their accounts while at the same time we have access to other stronger robots.

EDIT: Also TBK, there have been logical refutations for pretty much all of your counterarguments. If someone makes any kinda statement regarding balance he or she needs to be able to justify it. If there are arguments against that justification that have already been stated then he or she needs to examine those arguments and attempt to refute them. No one is always 100% right or 100% wrong in a good balance discussion because there are so many cases that can happen. However, the ones presenting the best hardcore evidence and comparisons make the best cases.



Lord Machaar -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/29/2015 13:57:24)

quote:

2) Raise Gamma Punch power to 107%.Given the fact that most Focus builds tank technology, their one weakness is the fact that they can be deflected. Sure, this suggestion is greatly discriminating against every other player who does not have gamma bot but, if a buff were to happen, it should be this.


quote:

Besides, buff can also be given to its Physical attack, making both deal 105% damage.


quote:

The robot special simply needs to become special. If that means making it undeflectable which will not overpower it.

Sounds like possible "buffs", but sure testing will show which option is better.

@Romanu:

quote:

You keep the comparison with the bot that needs a nerf IA.

That bot needs a lower damage with special anyway.


Once again, I've already explained to mother1 that I have compared gamma bot to every other bot and results have shown it is a waste to use gamma bot in some cases. Read my post above you and shall understand.

The reason why I compare gamma bot to IA more than any other bot because they belong to the same category.
IA is the only similar bot to gamma bot in terms of everything, except ofcourse, their special attacks. Once again, I've explained already that there are2 category of bots ( already explained them before ).
The fact that gamma bot belongs to IA's category makes it always a secondary option, and the reason why, because when you play a 5 focus builds, you think about damage-only bots (Category A), because they are beneficial, then you move to the second category of bots (Category B). Gamma bot in both cases, when it is used against any bot, it is not up to the challenge, gamma bot is even more useless when it is against IA, which is always the case when 2 players using 5 focus builds each other.



The berserker killer -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/29/2015 14:59:44)

Im sorry if it sounds like i'm attacking the Gamma Bot i'm really not. I'm simply stating that the bot is perfectly fine just the way it Is being that it has the potential to deal more damage in a single match than most bots given its versatility. . If any special is to be given to it I would suggest one of those three suggestions. Not to be offensive here, but the topic on hand isn't to nerf Gamma Bot. It's whether or not a buff should be applied.

As I have previously stated, if a buff were to be given i'd make gamma bots special unable to be deflected however lowering the damage down to 100%



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