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I Underlord I -> RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix (5/30/2015 14:26:48)
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I would like to apologize for the late response, as well as in advance in case I did not respond to everything to at least some extent. In addition, my tone is not meant to be argumentative in any way. ^^
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Variation wrote:
Yep its rarity surely shouldn't be the deciding factor on whether or not it gets buffed. That doesn't change the fact when compared to pretty much all robots in the game it's lagging far behind in terms of utilization. Just the robot having both a physical and energy(does an additional 5% damage) spammable attack isn't enough justification to say the robot is fine regardless of how many people claim they'd love a robot like that. The truth of the matter is most of the players who do in fact have access to this robot hardly ever use it.
I’d like to address, firstly, that while I do not have access to Gamma Bot, mathematical stimulations and use of formulae do the job well, inclusive repeated trials to mimic repeated usage. In this way, I’ve analyzed multiple items, including other Robots; my results have always been consistent with how they’ve played out when I did use eventually them in-game. In addition, I have a good friend who still plays EpicDuel and has access to GB; he has corroborated my analyses, tested it for me, and has even explicitly pointed out how much he enjoys using it for its versatility. Nevertheless, I completely understand if you may not find this sufficient; I’m simply pointing out the truth of the matter.
With respect to rarity, it was in no way the basis for my argument against GB’s nerf; I apologize if it seemed as much. I was addressing this wholly from a perspective of balance (particularly in PvP), as I always attempt to do. :}
I would have to respectfully disagree with a repeatable Physical and Energy attack not justifying Gamma Bot as it currently is. The 5% extra damage is not even a factor here; the fact is that such versatility is greatly desirable and a good option to have. I will further address this below.
You also seem to think that Gamma Bot should somehow be exemplary or a first-choice to make it viable as an option; however, almost all Robots are nothing more than potential cores, and people with multiple Robots often tend to switch them around unless their current build essentially relies on a particular special move.
Incidentally, players having access to something but neglecting to use it purports lack of usability, but this is rarely the case (or at least rarely the entire case). People simply may not use it because they prefer their other options; this does not mean the Robot is not viable, but rather that (even one-time) utility may be perceived as superior to pure damage.
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Now I will go on to address why most hardly use it:
Minor reason: Its damage. In this game a 180+(its damage +10+) damage robot alone will not make you have some huge edge on your opponent.
Major reason: Huge dislike of the special. Yes it's great the special is spammable, however 5% more damage on a deflectable attack is laughable for a robot special. It doesn't matter how much times one could manage to use Gamma Fire -- there are robot specials such as Armor Annihilator, Infernal Overload, Curse of Kartherax, Necrosis, Spore Bombardment, and even Chomp that can only be used one time in the fight while generally being a lot more beneficial than Gamma Fire.
Like most other Robots, it is (170 + [Focus * 40] + [Technology Bonus]). :} And since it through necessity follows the same Focus and Technology scaling, and has the standard base damage, there is no reason why a buff is necessary -- the special may be underwhelming in your eyes, but it was never intended to turn battles around on its own merit (its “utility” is sheer damage and it is repeatable) and fulfills its objective quite well.
The 5% extra damage is a nice boost, and it does add up over the course of battle (even more so if stacked with Rage). Even ten -- indeed, sometimes even less than ten -- damage can and often does literally mean the difference between victory and defeat.
The special is not “laughable” because the likes of Infernal Android, Blood Hawk, Black Abyss Bot, Kartherax’s Darkspawn, and Cyber Yeti see more use. If this were the case, every other Robot in the game would be “tailing” as well, so to speak. The aforementioned Robots tend to be easier to utilize and offer greater utility even with less strategic or tactical element involved in the specials’ respective uses; this does not in any way mean they are inherently superior. The only Robot for which such a case can be made is Infernal Android, as it is the only one truly comparable (due to being it being a pure-damage Robot). Even so, Infernal Overload’s also deflectable and single-use nature does not render it superior to Gamma Fire. Nor is IA always used at its capped damage; it’s sometimes used even at 100% or 105% damage, which, if you think is laughable for the repeatable Gamma Fire, is much worse for the single-use Infernal Overload (on which the Robot is completely reliant).
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Even for example if Infernal Overload were to be deflected if the person it was used against was any good they would've prepped for it(as in Infernal Overload) and when I'm using Infernal Android that always works in my favor deflected or not.
Spore Bombardment gives one a non-deflectable multi-attack (so it has uses in 2v2) and many EpicDuel strategists that do own a Gamma Bot would use any of the Botanical Borgs over it. They don't care about an energy based robot attack that does an additional 5% damage with a chance to deflect, why would they? The Botanical Borgs' standard attack are deflectable and they offer a special that is not only a 100%(as in not deflectable) hit, but is also applicable to both 2v2 opponents.
Armor Annihilator and Necrosis offer the same amount of damage as Gamma Bot's normal attack, however their specials generally pierce through your opponent's defenses. Why in this game where most battles are typically short should one even need to worry about spamming the specials on the Black Abyss Robots and Blood Hakws?
It doesn’t matter if one “prepares” for preparation against or response to their Robot’s special move; the effect on the battle is often comparatively minimal. Armor Annihilator and Necrosis are usually rendered useless by Hybrid Armor, for instance, which lasts for four turns and completely shuts down the strategy; if Infernal Overload, as another example, is deflected and/or buffed against, there goes the “nuke” around which IA is centered.
You seem to forget that Spore Bombardment cannot be controlled (it will deal 90% damage to both opponents, or 100% damage to a single opponent) and that it is single-use (I believe -- if this is not the case, I apologize). It is also the same damage type as the normal attack; Gamma Bot’s worth lies in its ability to adapt.
Piercing defenses might be a viable tactic and a desirable ability, but very few players fail to respond to such debuffs, and most can adapt even if one (or both!) defenses types are not appropriately buffed. It might force one’s opponent to make certain moves, but no Robot other than Gamma Bot continuously poses the threat of damage of either type from the opponent’s (presumably) most powerful weapon. I am in no way stating the specials of Black Abyss Bot and Blood Hawk are poor -- they are great -- but they are single-use because of their utility, regardless of average and median battle duration (which is not nearly so short so as to minimize GB’s flexibility).
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In fact it's blatantly obvious that most robots' special attack aren't spammable because they offer an immense amount of utility if in the right hands. What does Gamma Bot offer? A deflectable special that does 5% extra damage. In this game against a good player that special will make such a little difference versus his or her say Infernal Android or Blood Hawk. The special needs to stand out like a real special should. At the time it's only special in regards to being spammable and offering 5% extra damage -- both of which in the special's current state, in my sincere opinion are laughable. There is a reason why so little people (who do own it) are using it. The question that needs to be answered and addressed is why? The answer is very obvious to those who have access to the robot. The fact of it being rare matters little to me, and like I stated earlier it shouldn't be a deciding factor on a possible buff for it. The fact it offers very little in terms of today's PvP in EpicDuel should be the deciding factor.
Agreed. Gamma’s Bot “utility” (as it is a Robot intended for damage) lies in its ability to shift damage type, and 105% damage for the deflectable (and thus less worrisome than blockable) Energy option isn’t bad; the ability to reuse the special is part of the utility, not something thrown onto the Robot because it was deemed bad.
Frankly, you may not find Gamma Bot useful in PvP, but other people do; this is true of all but the most desirable cores (e.g. Azrael’s Will, Armor Annihilator, etc.) -- and even in such cases people have differing opinions. With all due respect, it does not require a buff because you or even a majority of players with access to it don’t use it; it is not underwhelming and so should not be unnecessarily buffed.
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I could go on to elaborate on the other robots' specials, but I just don't see a breakdown on all of their specials an absolute necessity.
Neither do I, especially as most of them are not properly comparable due to their utility specials, and we’re bound to get off topic discussing other Robots anyways. :P
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Variation wrote:
This. I find it extremely odd how some people are also riding on the fact it can use both damage types and therefore it's extremely viable. That theory applied is hugely laughable in most cases considering most builds have around the same amount of defense and resistance. For the times they don't have around the same amount of defense and resistance one might be in situations where they would still need to attack the higher defense. If for example, you're against a strength build with high dexterity and lower defense than resistance it would be stupid to use Gamma Punch and risk a block. There are so much factors that come into play with the ability to use both damage types and the amusing part is just because Gamma Bot has that doesn't make it viable.
Most builds may have the same amounts of Defense and Resistance nowadays, but things do change -- particularly in 2v2. Additionally, though a small thing, by far the most likely situations are people with higher Dexterity having higher Defense and people with higher Technology having higher Resistance, relatively speaking; this means the blockable Physical attack and deflectable Energy attack are actually generally to the benefit of the user. And even so, builds that rely on Armor to cover one type of defense are usually lacking in the corresponding stat, so once again the utility in this regard is not something that should be ignored.
I don’t find Gamma’s Bot versatility amusing; in fact, I find it outstanding. It’s far from bad in 1v1, and honestly nothing short of amazing in 2v2 or Juggernaut. One might argue that a Robot’s performance shouldn’t be assessed through battle mode -- but, as I said, it isn’t “bad” by any means in 1v1, and Robots such as Lionhart’s Avatar do exist anyways.
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The robot special is what needs to be addressed. Some people should really look beyond the fact it's spammable and I surely hope they can look beyond the extra 5% damage it does which is extremely negligible. The problem is the special isn't really so special when compared to pretty much all of the other robot specials. I mean if someone asks one, "Why are you using Gamma Bot?" Would one say "So I can rock that 5% deflectable attack!" Seriously, the special is so laughable especially when you have robots that can literally destroy the game for the opposition if those robots are in the right hands.
No Robot can inherently “destroy” the game if one is fighting a standard opponent or opponents, and the fact that most specials are single-use mean that reliance on them is often brought into play, especially in extended 2v2 (and even 1v1) battles.
Again, the extra 5% damage is not negligible over the course of a battle, especially when used with Rage (most Focus builds Rage with their Robot when they can, and many [particularly those using pure-damage Robots] also have high Tech and so higher Robot damage and lower chance to be deflected).
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I'm not asking for the robot to have the power of one time usage specials such as Armor Annihilator, Necrosis, Infernal Overload, etc. because I do believe the special should remain spammable. The robot special simply needs to become special. If that means making it undeflectable which will not overpower it, or when it's used the cooldown on the normal attack becomes two instead of three, stuff like that. I'm personally for making it undeflectable, which will absolutely not overpower it. The thing so many people seem to overlook when it comes to 100% successful hits (in the case of having synergy with technology) is that it now becomes slightly counterproductive dumping loads of points into technology (slightly because robot damage improves with technology). So many people take on paper theories out of context when it comes to balancing in general. In the case of Gamma Bot which I have access to it's clear that yet again players are taking what it can do out of context with respect to balance. One cannot argue that it has both P/E attacks and therefore it's balanced without proper justification. One cannot argue that it's simply a "pure damage" robot and therefore it's balanced without proper justification. One cannot argue since it's rare it should or shouldn't be buffed period. One cannot pose all of these balance theories that they cannot even test and expect that they're even right. This is a balance thread and some of us are here to treat it as such.
Honestly, it is difficult to argue that granting a Robot an auto-hit attack that deals 105% damage (or even 100% damage), that can be used with Rage, and that is repeatable, is not overpowering it. This is already a concern with Technology abusers (who at least do by definition use many skill points in Tech, and do have some chance to be deflected), and should not be an issue with anyone who uses the Robot due solely to that. Nor will your suggestion minimize Technology abuse, as you seemed to suggest; if anything, people will continue to have high Technology to take advantage of Technology bonus, but perhaps also somewhat higher Dexterity to increase their chance to block and decrease their chance to be blocked.
I mean the following with all due respect; I sincerely apologize if any of this is offensive, as such is assuredly not my intention.
I expect you to treat this like a balance thread as well; in so doing, perhaps you’ll refrain from misinterpreting people and engaging in argumentum ad hominem, and instead engage in respectful discourse. You are most certainly free to have your opinion and to supplement it with evidence, but the argument rather than credibility of opponents should be assessed and attacked (note this has nothing to do with me and I don’t mind if I’m attacked, but it is rather a general concern).
Gamma Bot is fine as is; I personally would not suggest a buff. However, if people honestly believe it isn’t up to par, a bump up to 180 damage might not be so bad; it should be a fine buff (especially for a Robot that many agree does not need a buff) that does not overpower it.
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