RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (Full Version)

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Cherubic Card -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (6/18/2017 20:56:21)

Man, and there I was casually taking out the shards with my Multiattack.

Water Primal, now that's a tough boss.

Fangblade on Extreme, now that's tough.



Soulless Shadow -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (6/18/2017 21:24:32)

I actually had a tough time with Doom Amulet because it would out damage me if I didn't deal with the shards. I think what I ended up doing was targeting the amulet with my Hero and Nythera and then using Artix to take out the shards that gave the power buff. I left the healing shards alone because I figured that as long as I managed to deal more damage than I healed, it would work out. Water Primal I've actually been working on today and haven't managed to get it yet, I can't quite get a strategy together.

I think part of the problem is that I've never been very good at playing defensively in DF. I've always felt that a hyper offense strategy was more rewarding, and to that end, Riftwalker works extremely well for me. I've thought about trying out a class that has a more defensive playstyle but I've never really been able to wrap my head around it.



Plendamonda2 -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (6/18/2017 23:47:38)

I'm currently trying to re-familiarize myself with all the classes so: Which Quests/Bosses do you guys use to test classes?

As of right now I'm thinking Rage DragonLord is a really good default for general questing, and even farming.
(Rage) Dragon Soul is just fantastic. The 10% HP cost makes it feel balanced, but it's not really an issue when you can just heal up on the next enemy.
RDL's defensive abilities are still fantastic too, they aren't quite what normal DL has but that is typically unnecessary anyway.
As of right now I'd place it as tied for best class in the game.

DmK is still number one, but honestly it just doesn't feel as powerful as it should. It does one thing (lots of damage) and not much else.
At least, it doesn't seem like it does much else, mostly because you never need to.
The mana costs are irritating albeit ultimately irrelevant- the potion reset could fix this but training Mana Pots is annoying.
When the class works it feels great, other times I'm frustrated Corruption isn't giving the effects I want.
Don't use V1-Dmk much unless I'm feeling extra lazy, and then I realize how lackluster it is compared to the updated DmK.

Under those two classes are where I place Necromancer, Entropy, AExo. For some reason I never really liked Pyro and/or MSW.
Necromancer especially is fun to play. I still love the animations and abilities of Entropy, and Ancient ExoSuit w/ BoA feels broken.

Technomancer and Guardian are my go-to classes for more 'casual' play. Though I'm constantly annoyed with how weak Guardian seems.
Nothing honestly wrong with Guardian but I guess maybe it tries to fit to much into one class and consequently doesn't stand out in anything.
Technomancer is really satisfying if you get the multiple stuns and defensive moves to work; they loop for a few rotations IIRC.



HwarangxDxArcher -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (6/19/2017 1:03:05)

@Greyor : I'm pretty sure an estimation is considered an opinion, because it isn't a fact :P
quote:

I actually had a tough time with Doom Amulet because it would out damage me if I didn't deal with the shards. I think what I ended up doing was targeting the amulet with my Hero and Nythera and then using Artix to take out the shards that gave the power buff.

There you go, another one who said they didn't ignore the shard.

@Soulless Shadow : Just use class that can out-damage water primal's healing. A lot of class is capable of doing that, Riftwalker is also a decent choice.



ArchNero -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (6/19/2017 3:29:49)

If I was testing a class and wanted to put it through it's paces I would fight bosses even though they're probably not challenging at all, like general varax on extreme, dr when, Aisha, captain davey on meltface mode, doom amulet and Caitiff 1st and 2nd form in the finale quest and as far as quests go I tend to just do the Appointment quest via the Anomaly.

When it comes to playing defensive classes like for example pyro or paladin, they're definitely not your typical riftwalker that does a ton damage in the beginning of fights. They focus on wearing down your enemy in the case of Paladin, he has a passive heal, heal on strike, heal, full heal and you can add soul purifier on top of paladin's ways of healing. In the case of Pyromancer, it's a not a bad class, it focuses on stacking DoTs and taking less damage and having DoTs on top of the damage you already do your skills, the DoTs add up to like an extra 180 or 200 damage at the end of every attack so that's not half bad. Although I kinda wished that Pyromancer's -fire debuff worked like Icebound revenant's -ice debuff. I don't use defensive classes too often but they're a nice change of pace.

I personally like the hybrid-ish classes like Deathknight or offensive classes like riftwalker, and RDL. Right now ECCA is my main it's fun and simple to use.

I can't say much for MSW, I know from using it previously, it has pretty good defensive skills and decent offence IIRC. It's been a while since I used MSW my only problem with that class is when I use the ultimate dragon amulet scythe and trying to change elements with MSW becomes annoying.



Soulless Shadow -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (6/19/2017 11:29:21)

The one thing that keeps me away from Master Soulweaver is that I like to see the weapon art. It's weird because conceptually, MSW might be my favorite class, but not having my swords or scythes visible is a dealbreaker for me.

@Hwarang it's actually not the healing that usually gets me, but the Mana drain attack. I have no problem out-damaging it until I run out of Mana.



DontTazeMeBro -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (6/19/2017 12:27:30)

@ArchNero Any Reason you're not using Ascended over ECCA? Just curious.

If I might chip in on the class testing discussion, I consider beating Razen Al Ghoul as a pretty good base point for telling whether a class is good or bad. Though honestly defensive classes do shine the most against him.
And if the discussion is about favorite classes, I would say that overall Pyromancer is mine. Takes on bosses pretty well, Incredibly resilient in long quests, and has a built in panic button.
For grinding, Ascended Chicken Cow is my go to. Easy to get and has good damage output. My only problem with the ACC is that you are literally 10 feet tall when you don it. Oh and hey, both ACC and Pyromancer have class barbers, so that just adds a tad bit of charm too.



Greyor_42 -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (6/19/2017 13:00:02)

@donttazemebro

quote:

Any Reason you're not using Ascended over ECCA? Just curious.


archnero had said earlier its because the skills are cheaper and a bit more spammable with evolved.

quote:

And if the discussion is about favorite classes, I would say that overall Pyromancer is mine.


it seems to be just about classes in general, like which classes you like more or what class is good at doing what, or even just fun things you can do with certain classes. but on the idea of favorite class, mine personally is MSW. eventually, i plan to have six different characters saved to my top six favorite classes to use. so far, i have my main character saved as MSW, and two alts that are at the moment set aside for dragonlord and ranger respectively.



fxmybrute13 -> Burst Damage (6/19/2017 13:27:30)

1. What class has the highest burst damage in 1 turn? I.E. No set up, just walk into a fight and attack.
I think it's Riftwalker's 440% damage with Power.

2. What class has the highest burst damagein 2 turns?
I think it's Riftwalker again, Power + Final for 440% + 320% = 760% damage.

Thread moved to DFGD and merged with All Classes thread. ~Karika



Baron Dante -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (6/19/2017 13:28:12)

quote:

If I might chip in on the class testing discussion, I consider beating Razen Al Ghoul as a pretty good base point for telling whether a class is good or bad. Though honestly defensive classes do shine the most against him.

A single boss isn't necessarily the best way to test it out, since classes have different specializations.
Razen can easily take you out with just a few hits, so defense is generally a huge priority then. But that does mean that a class with very little defense (And specifically defense, not even healing) could be brushed off as bad classes.

I personally can't really weigh in much for testing, since I usually choose a boss I'm yet to do, crank it up to the max, pick a class that's either thematically appropriate, or I haven't used in a while, and then try to figure how to deal with the fight with what I have. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. In case it doesn't, I'll consider other options.
In terms of that, a lot of classes that were revamped usually have established rotations they want to be running, but I usually avoid researching those, since I feel it kind of puts you into a specific mindset like "this is how you should play the class". Sure, over time some classes get reduced to a rotation like that anyways, but having come to the conclusion myself leaves me with a better understanding of what variables I have in case a deviation is necessary.



HwarangxDxArcher -> RE: Burst Damage (6/19/2017 14:21:59)

Togslayer

@Soulless Shadow : You just need to take it out before your mana runs out. Or a get around those problem would be bringing pet that can heal your mana, like Dragon with 200 points on healing.

Merged double posts from thread merge. ~Karika



andybaum005 -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (6/19/2017 14:29:01)

I disagree with Doomknight's mana-costs being that much of a problem. Yes, it's defensive-abilities cost a bit, but maxing-out your WIS and/or having a protection-focused dragon alleviates that pretty significantly. Meanwhile, its offensive-abilities, for the most part, cost almost nothing compared to how much damage they put out. At level 85, Blast costs only 25 mana and does about as much damage as ACC's best attacks, and that's without the 484% DoT. Blood does more damage than almost any other critical-attack (540%), is spammable, and only costs a small amount of HP, which Carve covers 2x over and only costs 21 MP. Dark does 1350% damage (Over 4x stronger than ACC's nuke-attacks), and only costs 29 mana. Its regular attack does 270%, equal to Deathknight's best attack, and costs 0 mana. Etc etc. Unless you're going up against a boss with 40K+ HP or a boss that quickly drains your mana (coughDarkDevicescough), it's really not an issue IMO. RDL does have better burst-damage, but it loses quickly in long-term damage, and its defense pales very poorly compared to DmK's. (Far better heal-per-turn, better damage-reduction ability with a lower cooldown, WAY better blind, WAY better boost-nerf, can use NSTB on top of that, etc.) Personally, I'd say its mana-to-damage ratio is what makes DmK especially potent, on top of its damage-output.

That said, in some instances, Doomknight does under-perform a bit. In most 1v1 set-ups, it's borderline-unstoppable, because its rotational-defense is good enough to tank most bosses, and its offense destroys most opponents before it even reaches a defense-gap. Against multi-bosses, however, it gets wasted pretty quickly, especially in hard-mode. PDL is far-and-away better than DMK in that regard. (Example; The rebels in, "Cycero's Apprentice" on Hard-mode. I can beat them quite easily with PDL, but I often lose with DmK.)



fxmybrute13 -> RE: Burst Damage (6/19/2017 14:36:36)

Too bad FireTOG Punch is locked to fire. But Final Blow is still better than RW's 1-turn damage of 440%.
Too bad it's not the right season to get the class. Nevermind, thank you Rolith.

Forgot to factor in RW's 25% PowerBoost, so still RW for 1 and 2 turn damage, it seems.



Solanaceae -> RE: Burst Damage (6/19/2017 16:36:40)

Old DoomKnight (Break/Blood Rite -> Break/Blood Rite/Life Carve for 1500+%), Togslayer (FireTog PUNCH -> Final Blow for 1080%), Shadow Rogue Armor with Shadowheart Bracer (Final -> Rapid for 1050.4%), DragonLord with the Dragon's Rage artifact if you have very low health (Fire Dragon Spirit -> Dragon Heart for up to 1015%; if you allow Heart to be unlocked beforehand, then Dragon Soul -> Heart for 1290%), Riftwalker (Power -> Final Blow for 950%).



dragon_master -> RE: Burst Damage (6/19/2017 18:14:10)

Highest burst in 1 turn is Kathool's Wrath for 450%



fxmybrute13 -> RE: Burst Damage (6/19/2017 18:17:46)

Thanks for the replies! As my goal was to just burst down the bosses in Voltabolt's challenge ASAP (so looking for non-element locked skills, but forgot to mention that), I guess I'll stick to Riftwalker.



BeautyJester -> RE: Burst Damage (6/20/2017 10:25:40)

ok, i have never been a fan of the armor Dragonlord cause of how defensive it is, but after i bought the Dragon's Rage artifact, Dragon Soul hits for 490% damage at the expense of 10% of your hp....(its 70% damage over 7 hits) i can one shot the Mega Driller monster thingy with Darkness dragon > Dragon Soul if i get lucky crits.... but imo it feels like riftwalker (110% damage over 4 hits) Boost + my crit chance works well than dragonlord Rage. More reliable taking down voltabolt challenge faster. But this is just me. If u have high crit chance, i can see Dragonlord Rage is faster than riftwalker



dark garuda -> RE: Burst Damage (6/20/2017 11:55:32)

Pyromancer with Arnice Magica has among the, if not the highest first-turn burst, especially if the character doesn't have too much crit in build (because Phoenix doesn't scale with crit, it gains most of its damage primarily with Naturecast procs which can't be made any more likely unlike natural crits).

The Phoenix: 2(150 - (10 x 2.25) + (110 x 2.25)) = 750% on average. Pyromancer doesn't have a good second-turn follow-up though, unless you're permitted to include trinkets. Runeblast from the Runestone does contribute 420%(x 1+crit chance).

Evolved Chickencow Armour for 2-turn burst, with Arnice, does 670% and then 420%(x 1+crit chance) - Summon Zeuster + Mad Chickencow Attack.

The strongest bursts of all though of course concern those few characters who are lucky enough to have the trinket skill 'We Have Your Back', which is even stronger if you've got the Flame Claw Scythe as well. 1600% Fire damage and then you get +100 Boost on your next attack as well. xD Seems legit. Though, back before the Naturecast glitch got fixed where a single proc of it would make every other cast proc Naturecast thereafter, skills like The Phoenix would usually do similar broke levels of damage. I mean, instead of averaging 2.25 procs per cast, it'd then average 9. That worked out at 2100% damage as the mean.



dragon_master -> RE: Burst Damage (6/20/2017 18:21:30)

^There was no speaking originally about having specific items on classes,so Kathool's Wrath (requires Shadow > 20% boost) still holds highest 1 turn burst,minus DmK VO and new DmK.
EDIT: Topping the fact that Kathool Adept scales damage with level,much like DmK.
Even if you used the Stock weapon,you still would have a chance of making a near 800-1000 Crit.
Hex is also quite powerful,and so is Red Tide.

Since not everyone can have access to DmK at any given time,it can't truly be used as an argument,besides the fact it being Tier 4,unlike anything else spoken of in this thread.

Also,i am not sure if so,but Pyromancer is just a weak defensive class,it's offensive capabilities are also quite weak compared to other Tier 3 (DC) classes.
All that stands out is the fact it has full heal and 2 stun skills,which still even together are weaker than enTropy's Putrefying Being,which is arguably the best stun skill in the whole game,also having great burst if you applied the Infect and Spit.

It also has the arguably weakest shield - weaker than Tier 1.


Speaking of 2 turn burst,Kathool would still have that position,as after using Kathool (if you hadn't already nuked the enemy with 2000+ crit),you apply -50 EvilRes,which means Hex and Mad would still insanely crit.

Guys don't use the DmK and especially DmKVO as it simply isn't right comparing to other classes.



Solanaceae -> RE: Burst Damage (6/20/2017 21:59:53)

Kathool's Wrath doesn't have the highest 1 turn burst. It does 450% damage with a 25% Boost and a +50% chance to crit, which translates into 843.75%, with a third of that being from the crit chance. RDL can use Dragon Heart at sufficiently low HP and sufficiently high crit chance to surpass that, none of which crits. For example, let's say you have a 40% base crit chance. On average, KAA's Mad -> Kathool would do 1068.75% on the second turn. Meanwhile, RDL using Light/Ice/Fire Dragon Spirit -> Dragon Heart at, say, 10% HP would do 1064% damage on the second turn. RDL takes the lead if you have, say, 45% crit chance, which is not unreasonable with a full offensive build.



dark garuda -> RE: Burst Damage (6/20/2017 22:13:32)

Additionally, talking of the highest first-turn burst is a lot more useful in DF terms than the highest amount of damage possible on 1 turn. Obviously you can use all sorts of boosts, but it lowers your damage per turn, and in DF you either want to nuke an opponent instantly or settle in for the long fight in the case of bosses. Saying that Wrath does heavy damage on 1 turn is true, albeit not as the highest, but it's pretty useless to say because you're disregarding that you have to spend a turn using Shadow first. Like they said, just walking into a fight and attacking - no set-up.

You could argue that showing the Arnice Magica or Ruby Spike is set-up, but it does not take a turn, it merely requires you to have the item (which isn't a rare item or particularly hard to obtain). I don't think you understand what Arnice Magica does, in the case of the Ancient ExoSuit, Pyromancer and Chickencow classes, it more than doubles all of their damage output. It's especially significant in the former 2 class cases, because these're both pretty defensive classes which kill slowly but surely. It's a lot easier to enhance your offensive power with trinkets or weapons than it is to improve your defence - most defensive trinkets are rubbish, hence why having access to the defensive skills on the rare occasions you need them takes precedence.

Besides, I'm just saying as a fact: if you show Arnice Magica/Ruby Spike and use The Phoenix, you'll average 750% damage. It doesn't matter that Pyromancer is perceived as a defensive class. That's the damage you do with that skill. Riftwalker's biggest advantage for its first-turn burst for farming battles isn't in the amount of damage Power does - though it does do a lot especially once crit gets invested into - it's for what a quick animation it has compared to other classes' burst skills.



dragon_master -> RE: Burst Damage (6/21/2017 1:36:22)

Once again,you bring in a particular item.
Now,it doesn't matter if i understand how it works or not,that's not the point.
Point is - calculate highest burst without items,as originally intended by the thread starter.

But obviously,thread has already been derailed,so,whatever.

On another note,crits weren't being adressed at first,but there will always be someone who starts derailment,so good luck with that.



dark garuda -> RE: Burst Damage (6/21/2017 1:45:22)

OP: 'No set up, just walk into a fight and attack.'

'Highest burst in 1 turn is Kathool's Wrath for 450%' - suggests attack which requires set-up.

Randomly complains about someone else's suggestions for high burst damage and then starts rambling about how EnTropy is a better class than Pyromancer. That and that other people shouldn't be mentioning Doom Knight. Then also decides to complain that people're talking about crit chance... wait, how is this a problem again? Everyone knows that classes with powerful non-auto-critting attacks like Riftwalker thrive with higher levels and therefore higher crit chance (this is a similar principle to how Kathool Adept skill damages scale with levels).

'But obviously,thread has already been derailed,so,whatever... there will always be someone who starts derailment,so good luck with that.'

???



Solanaceae -> RE: Burst Damage (6/21/2017 13:02:32)

I feel like ignoring a character's crit chance as well as DoomKnight is going against the point of the question in hand; if I were trying to determine the fastest way to farm XP, I'd naturally want to maximize my DPT, which would in turn factor in crit chance. The definition of "setup" in the context of OP's question depends on how you interpret it, I guess. Personally, I just took it to be something along the lines of "usable in every consecutive battle", so something like SnugglePanda's Happy Panda -> ULTIMATE PANDAH!!! (which, by the way, can outdamage KAA; ULTIMATE PANDAH!!! actually does 450% base damage) would be off the table because it doesn't reset every battle. On the other hand, your definition of "setup" would involve no items at all, which I feel is less useful in practice.

In this particular case, KAA would beat out RDL for "most damage in a single turn" because Light/Ice/Fire DS is ele-locked, unless you were really crazy and went to like 1% HP for Dragon Heart.



Baron Dante -> RE: Burst Damage (6/21/2017 18:30:29)

^Well, if you're trying to figure out the fastest way to farm XP, it's kind of different than just the DPT.
Even without taking animation speed into account, there's a certain point where extra damage doesn't matter anymore.
If it beats souped-up Voltabolt out in one-hit, you don't need higher numbers at that point.
Now, if that's not the case, and it's instead a two-hit KO provided without Crits, then having a max chance of getting a Crit becomes the important factor.



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