RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (Full Version)

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BeautyJester -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (6/22/2017 1:43:15)

Wait,

Effect: 4 hits of Variable% damage (100% + % of missing HP per hit), 400-800% total

I thought % of missing health is meant for the one u are attacking and not the current hp u have... or its just me interpret what u said the wrong way cause the way u say it meant like you get yourself to 1% hp for maximum damage of dragonheart at first turn.



ArchNero -> RE: Burst Damage (6/22/2017 2:33:39)

Dragon heart does more damage the less health you have.



dark garuda -> RE: Burst Damage (6/24/2017 9:12:15)

Yo, can we talk Guardian for a sec?

Now, it's one of my favourite classes, and its art and animations - fantastic. But, it's pretty inescapable that the class is in a pretty sad state, by my opinion. I always was confused as to why Guardian was a T2 class to begin with, given that it's a special offer tie-in, but with that (and the fact it takes longer to train than any class in the game discounting perhaps Master Soulweaver), it is a little embarrassing that it's one of the weakest even among the Tier 2 classes.

Guardian's defensive moveset, I would describe as pretty competent. Reliable 2 T class shield for 5 CD, a -50 blind which only has a turn or two of downtime, and best of all in my opinion being Vortex which generates a guaranteed free turn and 25% power boost excepting extremely accurate foes.

However, even with those quite nice tools it's ultimately outshined by Necromancer and Paladin in the tier which both have much more potent defensive steroids that don't all get blasted by high Bonus.

I've seen people say before that Guardian lacks identity somewhat, but with those defensive skills and a capable offence it could do well as a hybrid class - and there's the problem, its damage-dealing is just bad. Most of its kit is element-locked (and even worse, element-random on Guardian Rage), which while objectively a liability does stop the class from being homogeneous. It's not necessarily a problem, but its offensive skills are element-locked with no compensation basically - unimpressive raw damage %s and very high cooldowns on its 'power-play' abilities Guardian Dragon (300% Bacon, 14CD), Guardian Rage (280% random element, 10CD) and most of all Awethur's Power ((150+Roll of 100)% Weapon, 15 CD) which is just a gimmick. Also while not intended to be hard-hitting abilities, Mega Shock their Multi has a whopper 4CD which seems out-of-step with every other class, and Nightbane's Fury is an extremely poor ability due to doing less damage overall than Limkragg's Breath, with an element that almost no enemy in the game is weak to rendering the DoT always lacklustre. On the bright side, Keen Edge is useful as always (but most classes have an equivalent), and Limkragg's has a very useful DoT element in Fire.


TL;DR + Summary: I don't think Guardian's got a bad kit, the problem is you can generate free turns and extend battles relatively safely, but you can do very little with those extra turns as your damage per turn collapses after the first few until your skillset comes back online (which takes a long time). Additionally, since you can seldom hit the enemy at their elemental weakness (and sometimes you'll get unlucky and heal them with Rage!), it has an ambient deflating effect onto Guardian's damage %s when they were across the board not great to begin with even by T2 standards.



ArchNero -> RE: Burst Damage (6/24/2017 9:29:46)

I've been revisiting some other classes lately, EPL in particular I've grown to like. Vine whip does good damage, you can heal health and mana, stun a monster potentially up to 5 turns, give enemies a nasty -nature debuff, potential to one shot an enemy, reflect 100% damage taken from an enemy, etc.

I came up with several ideas with EPL like using the hidebehind cape and bramble shield so you give yourself -all and the monster will be given more reflected damage. Stun an enemy and equip hidebehind and use it regen more mana and health from the health candy and mana candy.



Greyor_42 -> RE: Burst Damage (6/24/2017 9:44:18)

@archnero

it also doesn't hurt that one of the EPL's skills has a 1% chance to insta-kill. can't remember which one though.......



ArchNero -> RE: Burst Damage (6/24/2017 9:48:03)

^
The enfeebling scythe is the skill from EPL that allows you to one shot/instantly kill an enemy with a 1% chance.



Plendamonda2 -> RE: Burst Damage (6/24/2017 23:56:13)

@Dark Garuda I agree with a lot of what you said. The more I try to use it the less I want to. Other classes are just more fun.

I think however that the best way to think of it is that it's a 'free' class. You buy Guardian for AQ.
You aren't paying for the class, it's just a bonus. Though I'm sure plenty of people have bought it just for the class in other games.
So perhaps they* intentionally made it weaker - or at kept it "low T2" anyway. It wasn't 'good' before the rework either.

I briefly mentioned in my last post, Guardian tries to do everything so it doesn't really do anything.
The elemental lock could actually be a cool niche actually, but like you said it doesn't seem to have proper compensation.
Or rather, a significant portion of the time, not being ele-locked is better than than the meager 20% compensation.
Extra noticeable on Guardian's Multi: 20% extra damage but the higher cooldown ruins it like you said.
Dealing 150% often won't kill each enemy meaning you take the extra 2/3 turns anyway.
But using Multi a second time will do at least 200% to each enemy (Pirate/Ninja deal 260% iirc). And they aren't element locked.
Most of the other classes have a nice theme, or multiple skills that can work together, some 'combos'; Guardian doesn't quite do that.
Pirate has all the bonus nerfs for dodging, Ninja has a bunch of poisons, Technomancer has stuns/loops, Ranger has focus and stuff.
Paladin and Necromancer are basically Tier 3, Shadow Hunter is highly unique with its combos.
There just isn't anything remarkable about Guardian, despite being pseudo-special-offer and a tad more difficult to train.

However, IMO it's currently one of the better looking classes in the game (I love the walking animation). Not that any of them really look bad anymore.
Plus, DragonFable isn't a very difficult game, a weaker class can still complete most everything, it just takes longer and more damage.
It's not a bad class, it just isn't a particularly good one. Which conflicts a bit with being the iconic/nostalgic Guardian.
Guardians aren't really better than average in any game though, so perhaps they aren't meant to be.

*-(I think Ash was primarily the person that reworked the classes?)



dark garuda -> RE: Burst Damage (6/25/2017 3:13:52)

@Plenda - In many ways, it's part of a difficulty in that in DF, it's pretty hard to say what's actually 'bad'. Now seeing what's 'good' is easy. The question's as simple as - without preparations (E.G Potion levels maxed, use of guests, a strong pet dragon, Unhallowed set or other time-consuming gears, strong trinkets etc.), can it finish everything. Or failing that, can it finish almost everything but do what it can do quickly.

That gets ticked for, I believe, everything in T3. Going into T2, we have more of a problem - again, it's an issue as to whether they're actually bad, or just being made to look bad - because Paladin, Necromancer and Ranger are all extremely competitive classes that take the trash out with almost all of the game's stories, not even breaking a sweat. Now yeah, they do have a limiting factor in that the former two are pretty slow about it, and the latter needs a special snowflake statbuild to hit its potential. Even so, their capabilities are miles above the rest of the tier, whom look like they're scraping the bottom of the barrel by comparison. Even within that motley crew though, Guardian looks bad. Most of the classes in Mid-Low T2 are very worthwhile cracking out in certain situations; like Technomancer against 3x mob spam quests and low immobility resistance, low bonus bosses, they just underperform in a lot of other situations.

Guardian underperforms across the board, though. It does have a pretty decent proto-strategy, which usually goes something like Spiral Carve -> Nightbane's Fury -> Limkragg's Breath -> Vortex -> Ray of Light -> Keen Edge -> Guardian Rage -> Guardian Dragon -> Awethur's Power. Basically, you keep them pretty controlled while you unload your entire kit for some OK damage. After that though, you're basically drumming your fingers on the desk top while your incredibly long CD kit comes back up. And even on long-battle focused classes like Ninja for example, they still have a very comparable combo to Guardian's 'short battle' combo (Spiral Carve -> Guardian Rage -> Keen Edge -> Guardian Dragon if you can, although usually you cut at least Dragon to conserve MP) in Furious Assault -> Massive Strike -> Rapid Attack -> Vanish -> Shadow Strike. Where you'd think Guardian could shine, it still falls down.

It's not like you can't make the class work, oh no, that's not true at all. Like all of the control-based classes which turn a lot of turns into stalemates, it gets a big leg-up from having a strong pet and duoing with a strong guest such as Mritha, Aegis or Serenity Okami. And it has some of the game's best synergy with Not-So-Tiny-Bubbles, to the point that having it absolutely cripples any enemy that doesn't have Bonus steroids. However, all of these are further time investments into a class which needs an unusually large time investment to unlock to begin with, and after them you're still left with a class that's ultimately barely mediocre - even when it comes to playing super-defensive and fishing for turns, it suffers due to high MP costs! While it's equal to in short battles and worse in long ones than many classes in the tier: to be clear I don't think it's the absolute worst class in T2 (that dubious honour would have to go to Pirate IMO), but it's in a depressing spot where there's no real reason to use it, ever, except for its good looks. In which case, they feel like they're a bit wasted on the kit.


Let's be real, few buy the calendar for the actual calendar (even though it does look real good - except for this year's, sorry guys), however I'm not gonna cry that Guardian should be a T3 class. Bonuses have tended to be in recent years, but since my old Guardianship was one of the best fourteen quid I've ever spent (or rather got my Dad to, hey, I was 9-odd!), I definitely ain't coming here feeling like I've been ripped-off in terms of money. It's actually moreso that after 10 hated Ahzite Ore and, even worse, 10 completions of Fires Over Oaklore! - I just kinda wish the class had at least a few occasions where you can put it on and feel GOOD about using it for the fight, instead of today's janky usual which is 'Man this armour looks awesome, too bad I accidentally hit myself on the kneecaps with a cricket bat when I equipped it'.



DarkLore -> RE: Burst Damage (6/25/2017 10:02:35)

What would you say is a good attack pattern to use with ACC? (single target and multiple targets) I need to stop cheesing my way through everything with DMK v1. It does get dull I'll admit. I'd like to actually challenge myself more.



cross my heart -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (6/25/2017 19:27:53)

What happened to the new sounds that dragonlord had added to it? Haven't used the new version of the class in a while but I do remember new sounds were added to it.



Solargeo -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (12/8/2017 14:59:29)

has Guardian got a discussion thread?



Alm Nullamors -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (12/11/2017 23:51:06)

@Solargeo: There's one here, but the last reply was over two years ago.



Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (12/13/2017 1:37:00)

It's fine, they're tagged threads so there's no problem with reviving them.



Solargeo -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (12/18/2017 10:37:23)

@Necro Thanks



BladeofAwesomeSauce -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (1/11/2018 12:22:01)

One class that would be awesome, coming from someone who loves Anime, is a samurai based class. A Blademaster if you will, similar to the one in AQW. Also before someone mentions it, I am not a big fan of the RiftWalker Design. It just seems a bit bland... sometimes. You could make it so that it gives the player a default boost at the start of the battle if the player equips a sword, only it doesn't decrease over time like the Riftwalker, OR you could make it so that you can reset the boost back to it's maximum when you do a normal attack. Because that's one weakness that the Riftwalker has. It only resets its Boost back to 25 when you do the final attack, which isn't really sustainable in a long fight, and is why a lot of people prefer using Cryptic (Yes I am salty I don't get to use it since I started as Warrior).

And that's another thing, I don't like how the tier 3 Warrior, Mage, and Rogue (so RiftWalker, Cryptic, and Ascendant)classes are COMPLETELY depended on your starting class. In my opinion, if you've paid for the Dragon Amulet, you should be able to choose between the tier 3 classes. I'd rather not have to pay DC coins just to keep changing. Which leads me on to my questions, is it worth changing to Rogue permanently just to be able to use Cryptic? Also if I use any of the Rogue based classes, would using Swords, Axes and Maces be a detriment, since I haven't really got any daggers, since I did start out as a Warrior?

And that's just it. How about introducing the concept of weapon master classes, where each class is performs much better with a specific type of weapon, so giving the player a default bonus Crit, Boost, Dodge, Block, Parry etc (just not Bonus since that's not as useful) without wasting any turns at the start. This will encourage people to have more variety of weapons in their inventory, as oppose to just equipping scythes all day long. Not trying to say that everyone does but a good amount of people. It would in the long run increase play time for the collectivist type of players, like myself and ultimately what will evolve this game as a Metroidvania game. Also you could even make it comedic by making each weapon faction have a stereotypical hate against each other, similar to the Ninjas and Pirates, only there's more of them to hate each other (again, in a comedic way). So with the blademasters, they could hate axes/maces/hammers because they think they're too inelegant, and they hate daggers because they're too short. You could make it really comically ironic by making their leader a short character (similar to Edward Elric from FMA) or to another similar effect, although I think the short trope would work funnier with the strong Axe/Hammer users.

Also if you want to make it balanced, you could add the Boost differently. Since I can imagine Blademasters (or samurais) having multiple slash based attacks compared to Berserkers (Hammer/Axe wielders) with their much less frequent but stronger slams. And then you could have a Reaper class which are all about Scythes/Polearms/Glaives. I could go on but it would take me too long to type, this was long enough as it is [:D]



Greyor_42 -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (1/11/2018 12:50:49)

@BladeofAwesomeSauce

The Ataelan base classes are dependant on what you chose as your base class because they're the Ataelan base class. Just like how the dragon base classes are dependant on what your base class is.

Also, you're kinda downplaying just how powerful Riftwalker is. In most fights, your opponent dies before you have to reset the boost a second time(the only real exceptions are bosses that are either really tanky, or you don't have the right element for). And if it could reset its boost more frequently, it'd have to be nerfed hard to compensate, because even when the boost is at 0, it's a pretty hard hitting class.


Yes, using warrior or mage weapons nerfs rogue. Scythes, however, work perfectly fine.



BladeofAwesomeSauce -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (1/11/2018 13:41:08)

Actually one feature that I forgot existed was the "Show" feature. So I could literally just equip the necessary weapon but show something else. Also did a bit of research. Most attacks are dependent on weapon type, so my initial worry about Rogue classes using swords etc were irrelevant. It took me a while to realise that the difference between Warrior, Rogue, Mage classes was really how much patience a person, which also translates into long vs short term battles. So to summarise them

Warrior classes = low-mid hit rate, mid-high Damage output

Rogue = mid-high hit rate, low-med Damage output

Mage = Unconventional, Emphasis on dmg-over-time

One thing they all have in common is a Final Attack option, which normally Crits but has a long cooldown. They also their own reliable strong hit attack (not as strong as final but quicker cooldown) but that's where the weapon types often play in with the one dimensional classes, which in turn what affects the STR, INT, and DEX stats.

I was pondering all this because I recently bought the 2017 calendar from HeroMart, just to get the ShadowWalker of Time class. And the thought occured to me that I could get HeroPoints to unlock the Shadow Base Classes. I then found out they also had an trinket, which makes them stronger. BUT the effect is the same for all of them. It's 50% extra damage per attack. I was thinking to myself, whether that was 50% per strike, or for the whole attack. Because if it was PER hit, then the Shadow Rogue has the other two beat because it emphasised on high hit rate, which meant that each attack had the 50% boost, and would consequently mean that it dealt more damage as a whole. I still don't know because I still haven't got the Calendar yet to redeem the HeroPoints to get the armor. Also, I'm a bit of a stats nerd. That and my design taste for combat is starting to lean in more towards the Rogue type. Warriors types (not all of them) tend to come across as more Infantry, which in my mind is too common.



Greyor_42 -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (1/11/2018 13:57:06)

^

quote:

They also their own reliable strong hit attack (not as strong as final but quicker cooldown)


That's not entirely true, though. In early levels, yes Final is technically the stronger move, but that's only because it's a guaranteed crit. Once you level up, and have a decent crit rate, that "reliable strong hit attack" surpasses Final. Heck, in the case of Warrior, double and triple do that as well, with triple not even needing to crit even once to surpass final in damage(double deals a total of 150% damage, triple deals 225%, and power deals 175%, compared to Warrior's Final which only deals 125% before calculating the guaranteed crit, cost more mp, and has a longer cooldown).



Lolirock -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (3/18/2018 20:16:54)

pls make it for future buyer's of Doomknight armor to get both version old and new or remove the old one so all will have only the new one it would be more fair[:(][:(][:(]

Post edited. Please do not use more than three emotes in a post, as it is considered spam. ~Gingkage



Kurtz96 -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (3/18/2018 23:21:03)

quote:

pls make it for future buyer's of Doomknight armor to get both version old and new or remove the old one so all will have only the new one it would be more fair

I responded to you on the Doomknight Discussion but to max the chance of you seeing this:

Ash said before he left that DmK V1 will never be touched again, too big a can of worms. And judging by the backlash when DmK was revamped, lots of people would be pissed (including me).

Think about it this way, you buy a season pass to the New England Patriots, but halfway through the season the Patriots launch a new ticketing system. Imagine they voided everyone's season pass who had already purchased a pass and gave them the new pass that has less features. People would be upset.

Now DmK V1 is broken, that is why the new version was made. Is it a bit unfair? I guess, but lots of games have founder items (like AQW) that only people who were in Beta got. It is a reward for being at a game early.



BeautyJester -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (3/19/2018 3:42:39)

Anyone got wind of how generally Epoch will work? Would love a bow class type class; Time Killer is one but..... you know how it is ;-;



Greyor_42 -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (3/19/2018 11:26:16)

@BeautyJester

Well, based on the model, it looks like it's either going to be a "swashbuckling" type, or fencing type fighting style. At least, with the current artifact. Who knows what later artifacts will do for it?



BeautyJester -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (3/20/2018 6:51:20)

^ wow. thats actually not bad. Actually as long as the go-to-skill of the class to clear single/multi thrash mob is somewhat instant (Which means less or close to none animation involve), i'll buy it in a heartbeat. Take Timekiller's skill "Quickshot" for example. No walk forward , slash and walk back stuff going on. Just; BANG. :)



dragon_monster -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (3/20/2018 11:02:54)

What do you all think of the animations of DMK second version are they better then the first one. For me both have meh animations but what about you all what do you think?
Do you think its surpasses other classes?



Greyor_42 -> RE: =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX (3/20/2018 11:51:32)

^Animation-wise, some things are awesome(like turning into a dragon), and some are, as you put it, meh.



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