RE: PSA: Dexterity (Full Version)

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LUPUL LUNATIC -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/16/2019 17:54:32)

I want to say that expectedhitrate was 85 with the old 200 caps , just a heads up now that we have 250 caps,so we do not lose the points gained(power) by raising again the expectedstats values to 250.

P.S: This is what happened with boosters [;)]

Also how would Initiative changes affect the Initiative boosts from Whispering Raiment or Ambush Potion ?



CH4OT1C! -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/16/2019 17:57:45)

Yeah, all of that sounds pretty reasonable. Not quite what I had in mind, but a pretty good compromise



Relinfearous -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/16/2019 18:11:38)

Max DEX+CHA+LUK used to be satisfying when LUK was stronger, but now it honestly feels underwhelming, even compared to the non-burst builds.



Branl -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/16/2019 18:24:18)

It works, when set up, pets can do some insane damage, and focus your player character on inflicting deliberating status effects instead of damage, because there's no way you can dig it out of that hole.

Honestly just need more 100% proc weapons that inflict boss boost bypassing effects like Black Spot and a lot more people would be using them. Heck, if foam finger had a 100 proc ranged counterpart, Sol Neko would be way more popular.

The biggest boon of the build is that they can utilize defensive spells without doing zero damage on their turn



Lineolata -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/16/2019 18:31:47)

Actually, I just realized- how will this affect werepyre and hybrid stats? Not using DEX for BtH seems like it'll be obsolete, so will it be replaced by using STR and INT for initiative instead, left as is, or something else?



Branl -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/16/2019 18:52:53)

Good question...



Aura Knight -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/16/2019 18:58:38)

If dexterity won't be needed for hybrids anymore that means there'd be 200 stat points to use in something else. lucky beast hybrids could see a rise. dunno how useful those would be.



Branl -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/16/2019 19:08:23)

They'd still need to invest in 4 points.
Dunno how Lucky Beast Hybrids could come from that.
You'd be better off dumping excess points in Endurance than Luck. Excess points coming from taking points from Strength since it's only half as effective in Werepyre.
I'm a little worried the Guest would have to be meganerfed. They have the some of the guests in the game so far. They element seek, compress into armor slots, inflict elemental vulnerability and M/R/M nerf, and can drain SP. I fear the reason they are so strong is their accuracy is spotty due to needing Dex, so when Dex gets changed, Hybrid Beastmasters would be less viable.

:C



I Overlord I -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/16/2019 19:37:56)

quote:

Absolutely not in favour of scaling MP to a "wisdom" stat. It would caused mages to unfairly lose a third of their stat points to gain the same damage as they do now.

But splitting up ranged damage is fine, right?

quote:

Moreover, the damage bonuses provided by STR and INT are currently balanced. It would break something that's already working fine.

Nah, INT gives 2* damage to spells and .75* damage to magic weapons; WIS would only affect the mana pool, not INT's inherent bonuses to damage.



Kalle29 -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/16/2019 19:53:59)

We really can't have the stats give full BtH in their attack type, imagine a mage that didn't need DEX or LUK at all for BtH, pretty OP. I'm for having DEX be split up in what it does - as opposed to STR being purely offensive - since that sets it appart and makes it uinque. If we made it so that STR/DEX/INT all gave full BtH and Damage boost in their respective type, then DEX and STR would effectively be the exact same, just that they use different attack types.

As pointed out in my earlier post: DEX is fine in concept and just needs some tweaking so people don't feel like it's a must-have.



PlayMyTrapCard -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/16/2019 20:19:21)

How will this affect werepyres? Currently werepyres have "hybrid stats" as a skill on werepyre and as an mc on spells and weapons that allows them to use str and int in place of dex as bth. Will this be affected if dex is no longer necessary for bth. Will it be changed in some way to continue to encourage the use of two mainstats?



AliceShiki -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/16/2019 20:24:30)

I just wanted to say I loved everything Kaelin said in her latest post~

Oh, and for anyone suggesting that WIS became a thing... Just remember that a lot of people are complaining that rangers need two stats (DEX/STR) and Beastmasters need two stats (DEX/CHA), so... Why would you want to get more reason to complain by forcing mages to need two stats too? (INT/WIS)

WIS works in DF because MP is universal, that's not the case for AQ... >.>
quote:

They'd still need to invest in 4 points.
Dunno how Lucky Beast Hybrids could come from that.
You'd be better off dumping excess points in Endurance than Luck. Excess points coming from taking points from Strength since it's only half as effective in Werepyre.
I'm a little worried the Guest would have to be meganerfed. They have the some of the guests in the game so far. They element seek, compress into armor slots, inflict elemental vulnerability and M/R/M nerf, and can drain SP. I fear the reason they are so strong is their accuracy is spotty due to needing Dex, so when Dex gets changed, Hybrid Beastmasters would be less viable.

Don't worry about Werepyre guest, it's balanced and would require 0 changes~



Andlu -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/16/2019 20:29:06)

Comeon guys really? WIS? WIS is only a thing in dragonfable because mana is used by any and every build ever. No exception. Now mages would need to spend two full stats slots to get their full effect. I don't know why just not mega nerfing dex (make it be like 10 bth at 250 dex, or something like that), and buffing luck (make it also be like 10 bth at 250 LUK) isn't the idea that would be the best one here



I Overlord I -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/16/2019 20:39:16)

quote:

Just remember that a lot of people are complaining that rangers need two stats (DEX/STR)

Which makes it even more ironic that 90% of those same people go on to attempt getting DEX nerfed further still, L-O-L.



Andlu -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/16/2019 20:42:30)

DEX needs to be nerfed. That's not even a discussion at this point. But just don't overnerf it. Beastmasters not needing dex, and lowering dex bth values for non ranged users seems good enough. It just needs to not be a must have for builds right now. You should be able to choose not to run dex, and still don't get locked to werepyre build only.



I Overlord I -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/16/2019 20:44:33)

For it to be nerfed in that regard, it also needs to be buffed to at least overtake STR for ranged weapon damage. That's also not even a discussion.



Andlu -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/16/2019 20:49:01)

Yeah obviously. They should have been swapped on the 80% and 20% damage. I never got why they made dex so strong for other types to make it weak damage wise to its own stat



Primate Murder -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/17/2019 1:25:45)

So Str only contributes around 25% damage to ranged weapons? Wow, that changes things. My beastmaster suddenly gets a lot of free points. [:)]

I absolutely support turning Initiative into a status roll in theory - no more guaranteed first turn! But how would it work with Whispering Raiment and Ambush Potion?

I also support increased Dex dodging, but that brings its own host of issues. After all, if you change the assumed hit rate, you also have to nerf all the on-block effect shields, increase costs and penalties on autohit weapons...


Overall, though, I love the idea. Dex becomes its own stat, not just a regular addition to every build. I also love how it fits thematically:

Str warriors charge ahead and hit it 'till it dies.

Int mages kill it with fire.

Dex rangers (FO or FD) ambush the foe and attack from a safer distance.



CH4OT1C! -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/17/2019 4:17:16)

quote:

I Overlord I said:
But splitting up ranged damage is fine, right?

quote:

I Overlord I said:
Which makes it even more ironic that 90% of those same people go on to attempt getting DEX nerfed further still, L-O-L.

You haven't really thought this through. I know that for two reasons:
1). Comparing INT to DEX when they are not the same
2). Kaelin's post

Yes, I personally was aiming for DEX to be a mainstat for rangers. It is not a mainstat at the moment. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as I first thought. Kaelin (reasonably) says that having mainstats control blocking as well as damage is not possible. That's fair. but it throws a spanner in the works. My model assumes that blocking of each type would be attached to mainstat. Applying it to another support would also become a problem. Kaelin's post provides a way to compromise both situations (provided it's balanced in the formulas correctly).
On the other hand, your idea doesn't make any sense. Firstly, it appears on a thread focusing on DEX. Secondly:
Damage output between STR and INT would change in your model. It balances because mages have access to MP to use spells. That means it can output that damage. Outsourcing that MP means it doesn't matter whether INT users get additional damage on spells, they can't use them. They have to invest in 2 stats to get the same damage output. They'd lose 1/3 of their stats.
A couple other implications (assuming Kaelin's post goes through):
1) Hybrids would be stuck without any support stat and blocking OR without MP (250 STR/INT/WIS). You would kill hybrid in this model.
2) beastmages would be stuck without a support stat, blocking OR without MP (250 INT/CHA/WIS). You would never be able to fully utilise pets
Your idea is just silly

Now, the benefit of Kaelin's model (back to focusing on DEX) is you could run DEX without STR. Yes, you'd do less damage. However, you would also get the benefit of initiative and blocking. Builds without DEX would have to forego this. Monsters also get a reduction in accuracy. It's a more defensive playstyle. You are sacrificing outright damage, but in return you get an ability to dodge and strike first. Obviously, the numbers need to be balanced in a way that makes DEX worth using solo (the damage loss can't be too high). With that said, this makes rangers into something different without needing to give them a completely separate mainstat. Although it isn't a mainstat, it appears to be the next best thing.



Shiba -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/17/2019 7:34:56)

@Kaelin: Forgive me, but are you saying that STRless rangers currently only get ~64% worth of melee damage? I thought this already was 75% so as to be equal to magic weapons. And what about 100% proc weapons? How do these compare?

So we should be expecting a shift in how much STR should contribute? That'd be great.

Edit: shamelessly asking to reconsider Guest Lucky Strikes, while we're at it!




Spiritual Guardian -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/17/2019 8:46:34)

I know that I'm in the extreme minority here (I'm probably going to get a lot of hate too >.<), but if dex ends up not giving any bth besides ranged weapons AND not guaranteeing a first turn while having 250 dex/luk with an ambush potion mixed in too, then this stat will pretty much become a gamble to invest in. :(

I would whether invest in cha and most certainly end that guarantee to benefit me way more consistently, then waste any on dex just for a greater chance to block and going first in battle more times. :(




Branl -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/17/2019 9:12:19)

It's not really an easy balance, making Dex not a necessity to invest in via removing or depleting it's role in BTH does mean it needs a higher role in something. I feel more damage would just make it a lesser Strength stat since the pure ranged weapon attack options are less than stellar, but I'm not sure what exactly should happen to the stat. Making it to the point people treat Dexterity like Endurance will actually have the consequence of reducing build diversity.

The Main stats shouln't be able to completely replace Dexterity if nothing else changes. It would just make them better mainstat options.



I Overlord I -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/17/2019 14:10:00)

quote:

I know that I'm in the extreme minority here

You're not. Kaelin heavily implied that DEX already plays a substantial role in determining ranged weapon damage (outside of accuracy), which is ridiculous, to say the least. Even if she were right, however, ranged weapons always get the shaft (ah, pun honestly unintended) and 98% of the best items are only toggleable between melee/magic, meaning there'd never be an incentive for a 0-STR "ranger" or mage to use a spear in the first place. :/



LUPUL LUNATIC -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/17/2019 19:04:32)

quote:

* Having STR, DEX, and INT function as *the* Melee, Ranged, and Magic stats (not counting LUK's contribution) while the same stats also provide blocking is probably not going to happen. There will be little advantage in training both STR and DEX because training the second one doesn't add much value. For example, if you're already got STR for Melee, you can usually just stick with Melee attacks without needing Ranged, and Dexterity would only be offering blocking against one out of three attack types... which isn't very useful. My expectation is that most players would just choose their favorite of STR/DEX/INT and then probably pick CHA and LUK (or perhaps switching out CHA for END if you're using Dunamis/Thernda/Poelala), and that'll get boring/same-y pretty quickly.


Isn't this the whole point? Players can choose their favorite stats without Rangers being soo oppressed because of:

quote:

What you see with Ranged weapons currently was a plan to have a Warrior using Ranged weapons (STR and DEX) be able to deliver the full 1 Melee per turn, but for conventional mages (INT and DEX, but no STR) be able to do 0.75 Melee per turn. Despite the STR component being so large on Ranged weapons, it only leaves 20 proc Ranged weapons doing a little less than the target of 75% (although the cap raise has changed this a little): about 27% of damage comes from "specials" that ignore stats, about about half of the rest (37%) comes from base/random and not stat, already putting a player at 64% Melee damage if the player had full accuracy -- it didn't take much more to put a 0 STR player up to their 75% limit.


quote:

* Dexterity will get a slight uptick on Ranged stat damage so 0 STR Ranged weapons can clock in closer to 75% Melee.


Mages can abuse Ranged Damage with DEX and end up doing more weapon damage with ranged attacks while spamming spells which imo is one of the biggest design flaws that need to be addressed with DEX.

Which is the main reason why DEX is doing much less for 100 proc Rangers,unless we will have some 100-proc Melee weapons as alternatives.
It is only boring when you assume players will just use the most competitive/best build all the time. But at the same time,players can also have the freedom and more build possibilities with this change.

If we would have all function as their type we can even get to have 100-proc Melee weapons and Rangers can deal 100% melee with ranged weapons and 0 STR,it would open more diversity rather than locking it.



alchim -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/17/2019 23:48:36)

Resonating with what LUPUL LUNATIC is saying; I do not understand how making dex a main stat is bad or even how it restricts builds. Isnt one of the main problems how dexterity is like a mandatory stat no matter what (exception to the newly released werepyre hybrids)
I dont know about anyone else but when i created my account in 2005, you were given an option between 3 classes; warrior, rogue and mage. But it turns out only 2 of them actually got an specialized stat, hell even beastmaster got one and they werent even there. You even had a 3rd type of weapon called ranged alongisde melee and magic yet it is the only one that needs 2 stats for its damage!
Warriors and rangers both need Dex and Str, and so do beastwarriors and beastrangers. They are virtually the same builds because of how dex is tied to melee but somehow str is also tied to dex.
You would actually be creating a new build class (like you would assume if you made a new account for the game)!
STR is for warriors
DEX is for rouges or rangers
INT for mages
Then you get customizations because each build only needs one stat to actually work (beastmaster would need two) so thats how many variations?

STR with DEX and INT (Being able to utilize all 3 types of weapons, blocking and spells)
STR with DEX and END, STR with DEX and CHA etc etc

What you get for training dex is being able to utilize a weapon type (ranged). You should be able to choose a build and not be obliged to train any other stat other than your main one. i dont want dex to become END2.0. I want it to be viewed like INT, STR and CHA, a stat you base a build upon.

FTR, this is just my opinion as a player who was introduced to the game by a friend in 05, soon going to be playing for 14 years. If the direction that the game developers wants to take ends up being a defensive dexterity then so be it, it is just sort of counterintuitive from what the game is.



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