Clever Disguise question (Full Version)

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battlesiege15 -> Clever Disguise question (4/17/2020 13:52:30)

Just curious, why do you pay extra SP to skip your turn to give your Guest and Pet Celerity? Wouldn't the loss of the player's turn be equivalent to the damage assumed by guest (60%) + pet (40%)?

Furthermore, you are already paying double for the guest upkeep due to the Celerity.

I get that with Bard of War, you have a penalty in terms of incoming Player damage to give Celerity to the Guest and Pet. The Pet penalty is there in terms of increased player damage but the Guest penalty is just a double upkeep cost. This makes sense because the player can still attack on there turn for extra damage.

However, in Clever Disguise, you are giving up an entire 100% melee to make up for the damage with Pet and maybe guest (that's not even assumed as you could just be using a pet). Does this warrant an additional 25% SP skill cost?

Thanks!



ambio -> RE: Clever Disguise question (4/17/2020 14:24:01)

i wonder that as well, especially how overpower enemy are with inflicting status and attacking with multiple elements



Legendary Ash -> RE: Clever Disguise question (4/17/2020 14:32:27)

The player is assumed to be a Pure Beastmaster due to the misc giving a Cha boost and the fact that you for a good reason gave up your turn in exchange for Pet and Guest damage, it does not make sense for a non-Beastmaster to give up their turn if they didn't invest in Cha, which would result in halved damage for 50% melee total.

Pure Beastmasters have the same damage distribution scheme as Mages whose explanation is taken from Optimization Academy of Lore: Builds, Expectations: Cha Mainstat weapons take -25% melee, which is channeled into Guests and 25% of a skill's upkeep +10% for decompression like the Wind Stone pet. The reason why upkeep is currently .885*.25% = 22.125% is because technically armor Sp skills deal 2skill(50base+38.5Mainstat)+11.5Luk =188.5% instead of 200% melee due to LS not being doubled, only base and Str/Int/Cha Mainstat are doubled.
In the case of standard cost HPcost skills, LS is doubled but Mainstat is tripled, which is the same as nonHpcost skills having one less LS stat of -11.5.
The existence of Pure Beastmaster's distribution scheme is why Pets/Guests still assume a /1.4 instead of a /2 for status conditions involving immobility, although it will never happen if penalties were to be applied to a player investing in two/three Mainstats it would be +.25 for each additional Mainstat added to 1.4.

The penalty for Shadowfeeder Pendant is .9 power and 1.1 cost for always useful, it was previously .8 and 1.2 cost for non-elemental.
The Clever Disguise is 1.1(Pet+Guest's 90% melee excludes decompression - player's .9*75% melee) = 24.75% melee worth of Sp.



Ryu Draco -> RE: Clever Disguise question (4/17/2020 16:34:31)

So in other words it's only useful if you have no points in offensive stats other than CHA



sportsman192 -> RE: Clever Disguise question (4/18/2020 9:11:06)

I feel like Ash's calc explanation doesn't consider that BM's don't use CHA weapons that deal -25% damage compared to 100%Melee.

Literally the only weapon I can think of off the top of my head that use CHA for mainstat is the lyre weapon. There's probably more but it just goes to show that the calculation needs updating.

I don't know what "Pure" BM stat spreads look like, but I'm assuming it has the luxury of putting points into another mainstat. LUK isn't considered for %Melee calcs but can be assumed is one of the "pure" stat spreads, leaving 250 points for that other mainstat. If you put it in STR you only lose ~22% Melee not 25%. *And thats with NO DEX. If you wanted to run the case where LUK isn't a "pure" BM stat, then you can put those points in DEX and now you're LITERALLY even with 100% Melee.

The whole point here is, Ash's calc is standardizing a sub-optimal setup for BM's, potentially very sub-optimal if DEX and another mainstat can be considered part of the "Pure BM" stat spread. I think we should discuss how to properly balance the value of a BM normal player attack.



Legendary Ash -> RE: Clever Disguise question (4/18/2020 12:58:00)

I'm not sure where you get the idea that Luk isn't used for melee% calculation.
Balance standards has always assumed a pure build of oneMainStat/Dex/Luk and not investing in two or more Mainstats.
A Warrior's base is 50% melee from weapon (Base+.5*Random)*armor BR%, 38.5% melee from Mainstat and 11.5% melee from Luk derived from 200 points in Stats for (Mainstat/16 and Luk*3/80)*armor S%.
If Luk wasn't assumed all status conditions calculations would be *.885.

Bass Guitar, Fresh Asteraceae and Moglin Fan are three other Cha weapons.

Pure Beastmaster is a build far from sub-optimal, as balance standards assumes pets deal base 20% melee, investing in Cha grants an additional +15.4% melee and the actual +9.425% melee decompression bonus from Guests totals a +24.825% melee advantage compared to Str/Int Mainstats in Neutral lean, this is still relevant when the majority of players use Offensive lean, which is for Str +25% melee and Int/Cha +18.75% melee.

In the Stat cap raise to 250, the Devs didn't recognize the melee% change it caused in status conditions, which I brought up in a Adjusting status conditions to new melee values at 250 GBI post.
In the release of Gilded Deatharrows Cat and Gildead/Un-Lead Leprechaun after the GBI's date, the Devs still didn't implement any changes to adjust to the 250 cap.
It wasn't until Undead Sneak during Grenwog 2020 that the Devs went ahead to adjust to the future standard of 300 cap skipping the 250 cap standard altogether.

You can find what that future balance standard assumes for Stat builds and how to easily adjust the 200 cap's values to the 250 and 300 cap values in my suggestion thread's Stat cap calculations header.
Using the values found in that thread, you can self-check how Undead Sneak got its 43.5% Paralysis from the old value of 36.97%.



sportsman192 -> RE: Clever Disguise question (4/18/2020 15:00:05)

Ok so LUKy strikes are included..

I was misconstrued by the Melee power description in the Master List of Game Formulas.

quote:

Melee Power: Melee Power designates the amount of damage done by a Melee weapon supported by stats but disregarding the weapon's special, excluding the effect of Lucky Strikes. This amount of damage is similar to what a Melee weapon does in an armor with an Offensive Lean of 0.9 (often called "mid-defensive") when including the weapon's special. A mid-defensive armor is commonly assumed when considering sources of damage not coming from a player's weapon, so this unit "Melee Power" plays an important role in balance.

The bold part is confusing.

So you're saying BM's have an additional ~25% Melee advantage added to Pet/Guest power, and the fact that CHA mainstat weapons are just like magic weapons with -25% Melee penalty means its all balanced. Ok I see that.

One point I'll bring up is I think investigating the cost-benefit of dumping stats into STR instead of DEX for a BM stat spread is worth a balance check. Double check me on this if you feel like it, but I'm finding you'll lose less %Melee by choosing a Melee weapon with 200 STR, 0 DEX than using a CHA weapon with 200 CHA, 200 DEX (I'm also finding less %Melee loss if you assume 250 stat cap standard). Its about 5%Melee difference. Who knows, maybe CHA weapons or stats need a buff to make it make sense, otherwise, BM's might as well use STR weapons and swing blindfolded for better damage. LOL



Legendary Ash -> RE: Clever Disguise question (4/18/2020 19:54:43)

What I mean is Guests deal assumed 25%/actual 22.125% melee base per Cha weapon penalty and from resource upkeep for a total of assumed 50%/actual 48.125% melee, this is alone equals Warrior/Mage in damage.

The +24.875% melee advantage is added on top of the above due Cha also affecting Pet and combined with the decompression bonus, this makes Cha the strongest Mainstat overall.

There is an assumed 25% melee actual 22.125% gain for using two Mainstats at 200 Str+Int due to Werepyre. This is only 2.75% melee less than using a Pure Beastmaster build.
At 0 Dex attacks take -15 BtH, this results in:
.25*.7(50+38.5) = +15.4875% melee for using a Str weapon or Int's spells.
.15(.75*.25(50+38.5)+56.55+40) = -16.97% melee reduction from Cha weapon/pet/guest.
There is a net loss of -1.4840625% melee.

If trading 200 Luk for Str or Int:
.25*.8(50+38.5) = +17.7% melee for using a Str weapon or Int's spells
-.05(.75(50+38.5)+56.55+35.4)-11.5 = -19.41625% melee reduction from Cha weapon/pet/guest.
There is a net loss of -1.71625% melee.

Thus the calculations show that using Cha without other Mainstats is the best choice for damage output and once again prove that Cha is the strongest Mainstat.



Mr. Roguish -> RE: Clever Disguise question (6/1/2021 2:17:20)

Just a little tip of a strategy I thought if and started using:

1. Equip Doray/Fathertime/mystic fathertime
2. Get as much full team celerity you can get with shadowfeeder
3. Reset using shield
4. Purple Rain
5. Use all of your celerity using the Clever Disguise which is guaranteed unlike Shadowfeeder
6. End Purple Rain

Pros:
• however much celerity you could actually get from Shadowfeeder is now doubled for your guests and pets (extremely useful against monsters that resist shadowfeeder alot) since mobs can't resist CD
• since your guest/pet has celerity and you don't, you can cast status buffs and they won't rapidly disappear

Cons:
• since you're not getting an extra turn to regenerate SP, guest is more difficult to maintain SP drain

This is extremely useful for builds that heavily rely on their pets/guests and utilize their abilities with celerity



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