Discussion about Discount Mogloween Bag and Essence of Carnage (Full Version)

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LUPUL LUNATIC -> Discussion about Discount Mogloween Bag and Essence of Carnage (12/8/2020 13:11:34)

Recently the Misc Discount Mogloween Candy Bag was brought back,a Misc that converts MP to HP.

When it was brought back it was also changed so that you can only use it twice a turn to convert. The cap on this misc has to do more or less with the insane Mana Regeneration you can have by using the Guest Essence of Carnage in Mana Regeneration mode.

You can gain very much Mana by using Bloodzerker armors / White Knight Z type skills up to full Mana in just one turn. There isnt a big setup for the skills other than using booster pet and damage misc and you can still gain 2000 MP +. You do need to have CHA for Guest to boost the Mana Regeneration ratio.

The problem here is that the Guest has such a big "drain" effect % of Player Damage that literally is simply overperforming. The question here is should we have such big drain effects ?

I would rather see a change for EoC than Candy Bag personally because i do not think uncapped Candy Bag creates problems rather than just converts other problems is what it is doing.


The thread is also a discussion about how it feels using Discount Mogloween Candy Bag now that it is capped at only 2 times per turn and if the change was in a good way or not.
Personally i do not like caps unless things are getting very broken (like Snarl uncapped) and caps are what stops the item being used properly. For example, the conversion miscs only have one job and that is converting various resources, its only usage is that. Caps just stops the usage for said items and to an extent they become less useable.

What do you guys think ?



rai0kakashi -> RE: Discussion about Discount Mogloween Bag and Essence of Carnage (12/8/2020 13:26:43)

While I support the fact that 2 uses per turn for candy bag is too limiting, something needs to be done to limit the combination of holy trinity (essence orb, pixel ether and candy bag) for players to have infinite hp, mp and sp.



LUPUL LUNATIC -> RE: Discussion about Discount Mogloween Bag and Essence of Carnage (12/8/2020 13:34:57)

quote:

While I support the fact that 2 uses per turn for candy bag is too limiting, something needs to be done to limit the combination of holy trinity (essence orb, pixel ether and candy bag) for players to have infinite hp, mp and sp.


It would need an outlevelling formula in this case for the miscs that do not scale. Capping is not absolutely necessary for this case imo.



Lorekeeper -> RE: Discussion about Discount Mogloween Bag and Essence of Carnage (12/8/2020 13:37:28)

Unlimited resource converter usage does create a problem. By themselves, they further increase the resource advantage of mages in a way that throws off the damage advantage other attack types get in exchange for the lower burst potential. In tandem with Purple Rain, any resource cost can be trivialized, and quick-cast effects in particular become so powerful as to throw all non-QC effect spells out of favor.

If the variable for conversions in any given direction being set to 2 per round (So two HP to SP conversions, two SP to MP, etc) is seen as going into the opposite extreme, even at a higher %melee rate than before, what would look like a more reasonable balance? Two even bigger conversions? A specific cap? A different limit entirely?



LUPUL LUNATIC -> RE: Discussion about Discount Mogloween Bag and Essence of Carnage (12/8/2020 14:16:08)

quote:

Unlimited resource converter usage does create a problem. By themselves, they further increase the resource advantage of mages in a way that throws off the damage advantage other attack types get in exchange for the lower burst potential. In tandem with Purple Rain, any resource cost can be trivialized, and quick-cast effects in particular become so powerful as to throw all non-QC effect spells out of favor.


Purple Rain was used even before Essence Orb and it trivialized many costs, Essence Orb just enhanced an existing problem as far as Purple Rain is concerned. This is one more example of a converter that converts broken things. Purple Rain purpose is rewinding resources (with a very low cost of a rewind cost it is broken in terms of how many resources rewinds by itself already), Essence Orb just makes rewinding better because it lets you rewind much more. May i add that it did not help that the QC Buff spells can now stack in turns either.
If its about how they can manipulate their MP (with converters) then look below.


quote:

If the variable for conversions in any given direction being set to 2 per round (So two HP to SP conversions, two SP to MP, etc) is seen as going into the opposite extreme, even at a higher %melee rate than before, what would look like a more reasonable balance? Two even bigger conversions? A specific cap? A different limit entirely?


We could take the Soul Gauntlet idea and put a compound interest after first use that increases with every other use during that turn and resets at end of turn for example.
I think that the changes to converters should be aimed towards a specific problem that is addressed. The disposal of a resource in high quantities in a single turn. Now the way it can get handled this aim makes the item good or not at its purpose. Personally i feel like a compound interest is not as restrictive as a fixed cap and lets players decide more upon the usage of said conversion. Needing more comes at a greater cost and can have diminishing returns. It fits the flavor of Candy Bag this way as eating too much causes more damage (to MP).



Legendary Ash -> RE: Discussion about Discount Mogloween Bag and Essence of Carnage (12/8/2020 16:11:06)

An ideal measure of resource limitations would be to go back to the original framework of the balance standards in this case health and mana potions despite the capacity to hold quantities of 25-35 of each, they can only be consumed for +100% melee from the resource alone that is tied to the passing of a turn.

Candy Bag shares an acceptable identical standard with potions and the quickcast skills of Werewolf's Snarl and Vampire's Mesmerize, each usage is worth 50% melee and the cap is set at two occurrences for a total of 100% melee.

If we don't consistently impose limitations to equipment, the problem of potential abuse of unlimited actions when there is an overabundance of resources would eventually find that crack in standards and balance issues would arise again.
What we are currently observing in the game is that equipment that have no limitations are used as a lifeline support to strategies that are limited by resource scarcity and as a result the strategies that work in every situation all approach instantaneous gratification.

Increased costs for continuous use in the same turn completely misses the point of action diversity, and what is worse is that it doesn't necessarily convince the player to perform other actions when there is no limitations in resources, diminishing returns is one level above it and we can observe how that plays out in Player vs Player combat games like Mortal Kombat, players still stubbornly pursue combos despite them dealing significantly lower damage, in the end they can't guarantee a change in one's action, therefore the effectiveness of a hard cap is comparatively superior.

To achieve an utopia, all equipment should be restricted in the manner of usage caps when deemed appropriate.



ruleandrew -> RE: Discussion about Discount Mogloween Bag and Essence of Carnage (12/8/2020 20:20:07)

Player level 150 tome produce 392 mp for 1 whole player attack turn.

Discount Mogloween Bag conversion limit per turn (player level 150) is 522 mp.

Treat all quick cast skills and all quick cast spells as global quick cast skill.
Ideal maximum number of global quick cast skill is 4 uses per turn.
Ideal maximum sp cost for one global quick cast skill (one use per battle type) is 100% standard melee attack.
Ideal maximum sp cost for one global quick cast skill (other types) is 50% standard melee attack.

Global cap on quick cast effects that can be applied once per battle is 4 uses per battle.

Essence of Carnage
Essence of Carnage is a overcharge guest. Essence of Carnage deal 90% standard melee damage.

Mana bat mp healing mode situation: 30% standard melee damage from guest damage to monster and 30% standard melee damage from mp healing (guest damage to monster is used to heal mp)

Essence of Carnage defiant mp healing mode ideal solution: 90% standard melee damage from mp healing (player damage to monster is used to heal mp) where hard cap is 125% standard melee damage

Gaining (mp / sp) resources from guest (from guest / player damage to monster is used to heal mp / sp) ideal hard cap is Y*(125/90)% standard melee damage.



LUPUL LUNATIC -> RE: Discussion about Discount Mogloween Bag and Essence of Carnage (12/16/2020 8:46:51)

quote:

Player level 150 tome produce 395 mp for 1 whole player attack turn.

quote:

Discount Mogloween Bag conversion limit per turn (player level 150) is 522 mp.


That is because Tomes MP Regen are valued at 75% Melee rather than 100% Melee, 522 MP * 75% = ~392 MP which is the amount you get for Draw Mana.

quote:

Treat all quick cast skills and all quick cast spells as global quick cast skill.
Ideal maximum number of global quick cast skill is 4 uses per turn.


The problem here is mostly Purple Rain, limiting the amount of QC effect usage defeats the purpose of QC in the first place.

quote:

If we don't consistently impose limitations to equipment, the problem of potential abuse of unlimited actions when there is an overabundance of resources would eventually find that crack in standards and balance issues would arise again.


Normally i would agree with you here because as we have seen already, Purple Rain can be used with unlimited conversions to MP and SP.
We are however talking about a conversion for Player HP which does not have as strategic value as MP/SP by letting you cast a spell or skill. On the contrary, Healing spells are really bad right now and the best advice is to use Potions instead as far as SP/MP to HP "conversion" goes right now while spending a turn to cast them. As a conclusion i believe that we should weight differently the conversions based on what they convert, since we already value differently HP,MP and SP already. With this i mean the amount of resources that can get converted to another resource.



Legendary Ash -> RE: Discussion about Discount Mogloween Bag and Essence of Carnage (12/16/2020 16:05:21)

quote:

We are however talking about a conversion for Player HP which does not have as strategic value as MP/SP by letting you cast a spell or skill. On the contrary, Healing spells are really bad right now and the best advice is to use Potions instead as far as SP/MP to HP "conversion" goes right now while spending a turn to cast them.

What is observed here is someone's opinion that HP does not have strategic value, this is contradictory when conversions involve a least two resources that are exchanged at a determined ratio of value, in which if not for this particular conversion equipment, it would not be possible to go through with the said strategy.

Healing spells being bad is another opinion that is based on the assumption of certain circumstances, traditionally heals are designed to auto hit and utilize harm element, these two characteristics are scorned by those who prefer that healing is based on hits connected and standard elements. As potions are designed to serve as undo buttons for mistakes in battles, their intended superior potency should not be viewed as the standard for healing, rather healing spells are the standard used in normal circumstances.

From perspective of game developer with an intent to provide breathing room for mistakes through Hp/Mp potions, Ally Assists and Save points, increased costs for continuous usage or inefficiency may be too malignant of a design principle become an accepted and widely used standard as it risks an early onset of defeat as one's unretractable decision to inefficiently consume resources that are initially sufficient may lead to insufficiency down the road all because of an obsession with a particular strategy.

The problem at hand is that we have two pieces of equipment that are poorly designed in terms of constraints, when used together it exacerbates their imbalance.

A proper treatment of Purple Rain in order to restore its status as a 'Rewind' or 'Reset' button in a battle would be to save all active durations and power of status conditions as well as charge values for equipment that utilize them for its save point.

Just because quickcast means to be free of turn costs, it doesn't imply an absence of a limit as these are two separate concepts.
The question is should quickcast be defined as giving permission to have the whole battle be condensed into one turn by consuming all resources and inflicting all sorts of penalties on the turn after if one doesn't knock out the enemy in a single turn, and if this is intended to be what players should try attain as the ultimate goal of their quickcast strategy.
I think the above perfectly illustrates a necessity to apply hard caps to equipment as a fail-safe balance safety measure to ensure that it will never again spiral out of control as it interacts with equipment of complex designs in the foreseeable future.



ruleandrew -> RE: Discussion about Discount Mogloween Bag and Essence of Carnage (1/12/2021 23:38:10)

Invincible Star spell does not need any converter. Adventure Quest need global quick cast skill usage cap.

I prefer a hard cap on global quick cast skill usage (consider all global quick cast skill usage for player turn X) which is 200% standard melee attack. Player can not break hard cap on global quick cast skill usage for player turn X.



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