Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (Full Version)

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GwenMay -> Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/9/2021 9:29:21)

This post concerns the stone statue on the recently released weapon in the Limited Time shop, "Ancient Mother Staff." Mechanically, I really like the weapon and look forward to playing with it on my beastmasters. I think its a step in the right direction for beastmaster weapons, switching from damage bonuses to effect bonuses with CHA scaling. However, when I bought and tested the item recently, I could not get over the artwork, which I believe is inappropriate for AQ.


For those who have yet to see the item, it is a wooden staff with flowers winding along it that has a statue of an obese, naked woman with gigantic breasts and stub-like arms and legs. My understanding is that the artwork is supposed to be a reference to the "Venus of Willendorf," a stone statue estimated to be around 25,000 years old and theorized to be a symbol of fertility.


I do not think an explicit portrayal of a naked, obese woman with gigantic breasts is appropriate for AQ, a game largely aimed at minors. I frankly just think its a step too far for the audience AQ wants to attract and keep. Personally, I do not wish to see naked statues of anyone when playing AQ, and especially not obese women with huge breasts.


I also do not think it is an appropriate representation of the concept of "motherhood," which involves a great deal more than a woman's anatomy. Motherhood is about nurturing and caring for one's children, not the physical attributes emphasized by the statue. It is like reducing fatherhood to a depiction of the male genitalia. In fact, I imagine many mothers would be uncomfortable with their children, especially young children, seeing that statue at all.


I appreciate that the artists were attempting to reference a famous historical artwork. However, due to its age we do not know if the "Venus of Willendorf" was even about motherhood at all. For all we know, the statue could have been a depiction of that society's "ideal woman"; after all, it heavily emphasize weight, which would have equated to health and security, and breasts, while heavily deemphasizing the face, arms, and legs - the parts of the body associated with identity and autonomy. Even if the statue is about motherhood or fertility, there are plenty of other more appropriate ancient artworks to choose from, with countless cultures having depictions of a mother and her child(ren). Being ancient also does not make it appropriate; the Pompeii excavators found many 2000 year old depictions of male genitalia when they uncovered the city, but I would not expect AQ to make a sword based on those works for Father's Day.


I also think it is telling that I am having to write descriptions of the item and my problems with it very carefully so as to conform with this forum's own rules on "sexually explicit" content.


Lastly, when discussing this topic on the discord it was brought to my attention that AQ does occasionally depict topless or arguably naked characters, with two female examples being the female "Dracopyre of Night" armor and Gracefang. However, neither those armors/characters emphasize their breasts nearly as much as the statue, with Gracefang in particular having her scales form a sort of covering. There may also be other examples that I am unaware of as well. Despite this, I think 1) the statue is far more explicit than anything AQ has ever done previously and 2) that people should reevaluate the appropriateness of past items instead of using them as justification for new items.


I would appreciate if the artwork of the statue could be changed to something more appropriate. Possible alternatives could be a statue of a heart or a statue of a mother and her child.




Shiba -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/9/2021 10:02:23)

quote:

Personally, I do not wish to see naked statues of anyone when playing AQ, and especially not obese women with huge breasts.


This seems a bit like fat shaming, to me. Everyone (and their bodies) is okay the way they are. There are 7 billion people on Earth and we are all unique. But we're also all (well, almost all, but the world is a complex structure) the same, with body parts specific for men and women. They serve a purpose and it is perhaps sad to see that a woman's breasts are sexualised so much in this world, and that they must be covered up. They're mainly there for breastfeeding, something completely natural. Something seen among many other animals.

In the end, the staff simply has some sort of stone statue of a woman. The way she looks, while irrelevant, is probably based on some sort of "beauty standard" of the past. Well fed and a good body for reproduction. Yes, the act of reproduction involves sex, but would (young) children really think of that, would it really be because of this artwork, and lastly; is this really harmful? If the image were of pornographic nature, it would be a different matter.




GwenMay -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/9/2021 10:08:32)

@Shiba

I think there's definitely a debate to be had about whether cultural taboos about topless women continue to be appropriate in the modern age. I also think that most Western societies find depictions of topless women to be inappropriate, and that AQ should not be the trailblazer here. It was not my intent to "fat shame" - like I said, I'm not happy with any naked statues. However, I do recognize that the way I phrased some of my sentences could be characterized as fat-shaming and I truly apologize for that.

quote:

If the image were of pornographic nature, it would be a different matter.


The thing is, we truly do not know if it is or is not. The statue is so ancient we really have no way of knowing what the artist's intent was or how their society would have interpreted it. The best we can do is guess, and the fact a pornographic interpretation is even possible means its pushing the line at the very least.




jd33 -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/9/2021 10:32:06)

I think the art direction was a bit questionable, myself, but not way out of line. If anything just a little cringy, if the game is trying to maintain a Sanitized rated E for everyone appearance. If it does cross the line it doesn't do so too far, but I personally would like to see it reworked into something else. If she was not an obese statue I still would feel the same.




Shiba -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/9/2021 10:34:32)

The interpretation of the artist is unimportant, imo. It's a woman that simply sits there. It looks completely innocent to me, just with that in mind.

I get that society all around the world views this differently and I respect that, but I feel like this statue lacks too many details for it to be truly 'offensive'. I get that with social media and LITERALLY everyone having a smartphone with a camera, women are a lot less likely to go topless than a decade and more ago. That much is true. However, fashion has also changed a lot, with tighter jeans which show shapes FAR better, and bare belly buttons and other body parts, seen everywhere. It seems like more woman are showing off their bodies without going full nude. I am not going to judge whether that is good or not, but I interpret that as people are much more relaxed with showing off their bodies, while also being responsible enough to protect themselves from public (social media) shaming. A few people on the beach? Sure! 1000s of people you know and strangers on the internet? No thank you.

My mind jumps from left to right to up and down and I didn't really have a point in my mind where I was headed with this post, so I'll finish by asking this: compared to the women you see around you, does this statue really show too much (in a sexual(ised) way)?




Silver Horn -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/9/2021 12:47:47)

I think the artwork is fine honestly. This is being blown way out of proportion.




Sir Cloud -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/9/2021 13:09:19)

quote:

However, when I bought and tested the item recently, I could not get over the artwork, which I believe is inappropriate for AQ.

If this is overly offensive I can't imagine what visiting a public Museum or any Beach on a hot Summer's day must be like for you. [&:]




Zork Knight -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/9/2021 13:45:53)

It's a stone age highly deformed fat lady statuette. Sheila is more salacious than that




Macho Man -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/9/2021 15:49:18)

IMO the weapon is fine as it is. It's art from 25000 years ago and I don't think we should "modernize" it as that defeats the purpose of art. I looked at the other mother related items and for the most part they seem fine. However, I'm surprised you aren't talking about the Godmother pets that come out with a new element each year. I have no issue with them either but their art can also be provocative. I've seen alot of comments sexualizing them, as well as even the concept of having her as a "pet". I personally have no issues at all.




s_venom -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/9/2021 17:50:46)

The art is fine.
Just because you personally disagree shouldn't effect it's existence.

It seems to me that you are trying it insert problems that don't actually exist into this one item.
Moreover, the fact that you are saying "that people should reevaluate the appropriateness of past items instead of using them as justification for new items"....
Don't start messing with a game that lasted for so long just because it doesn't suit your taste.
There are plenty of other games for you if this bothers you so much.




Aura Knight -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/9/2021 18:21:58)

The art is fine. There's way more suggestive characters in game who happen to be clothed. If it was inappropriate why did it get approved for release? Obviously there's some thought put into allowing it and you can be upset all you'd like but to try and force some change under the guise of "my morals are better" idk about that. It's a stone statue on a stick with some leaves around it. Hurts nobody.




GwenMay -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/9/2021 20:12:32)

To all the people saying the "art is fine" and that I'm getting upset over nothing -

I am an adult and have absolutely seen much worse than this statue; I imagine most of you have as well. The appropriateness of any piece of artwork depends on the context. My post was not made out of concern for the sensibilities of the regular posters on this forum, most of whom are likely adults as well. I have an opinion about the appropriateness of a piece of AQ art and decided to share my concerns - if AQ staff decides the current art is appropriate after considering my concerns, then I will of course accept their decision. It is not my game only, after all, not even close.

I do think that many of you are not wholly considering my objections to the art as a representation of "motherhood" and focusing your criticism on the age appropriateness and cultural norms aspect of my post. What precisely does a statue of a deformed naked woman have to do with motherhood? At best, it may be an ancient fertility goddess, making its connection to motherhood simply the biological possibility of pregnancy instead of any of the attributes we associate with a "mother," like nurturing and caring.

Balancing the slight, possible connection to motherhood the Venus may have against the considerable questions of age appropriateness and cultural norms about nudity the Venus brings up, I think AQ would be best served to stay away from such art.




RobynJoanne -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/9/2021 20:46:10)

I'm with Gwen here. It doesn't bother me quite as much, but I also don't quite understand why this of all things was chosen as a symbol for motherhood. The other Mother's Day items all revolve around flowers (and I am not against something new; there are plenty of things that can depict motherhood), and while Ancient Mother Staff also has flowers, the Venus is very prominent in its artwork. The Venus is, as Gwen states, a symbol of fertility, and that is also contrary to the symbols of nurture and care that have characterized previous Mother's Day items. Fairy Godmother is perhaps the most similar item in terms of being visually risque, but it's clear that she's to be viewed as a Guardian Angel of sorts. However curvaceous her body may be, the rest of her visual and gameplay design indicates that her figure is more of a video game idealization than a sexualization. There are also no lore reasons for a figure that looks like the Venus, and while I understand that not everything has to be justified by lore, it does seem to me that there is no great need for a nude figure in the artwork.

I understand that most do not find it particularly suggestive, and I do agree on that front. It just seems that this is a needlessly potentially controversial art design choice.




Aura Knight -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/9/2021 20:47:42)

The concern of appropriateness considering target audience of the game is a valid one but are we seriously considering that kids nowadays even know about this game? Those of us who stick around do so out of possible nostalgia and it being something we've experienced for so long and since it's been many years, with many of us now adults, there isn't anything to even be concerned about. A younger audience wouldn't focus so much on that small part of the weapon's design usually so who would be protected if the intended party to be protected doesn't care?

If a statue with no clothes is a concern then why does nobody complain about the Paxus statue which depicts assumedly an overweight multi-limbed man with no clothes and multiple faces? If one isn't allowed, the other shouldn't be either and since no issue had been brought up about that past design, chances are there isn't one for this as well.




battlesiege15 -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/9/2021 20:59:54)

Tbh I don't think the player base is kids. It's hard to say but I would bet that a large majority is teen+. I think this is also a step AQ is taking towards based on the more mature and darker storylines being made (which I really love btw!)

I get the argument here but the weapon itself has an ornament that resembles an art piece. There's no face or anything on it. AQ is very mild compared to some other games out there in terms of artwork. The only other instance I believe is more provacative is early days Safiria. I forget what her new artwork makes her look like ¯\_(?)_/¯

Heck, even AQW has more scandalous character designs and armors and AQW is definitely more younger audience focused.

In the end, I think it more so boils down to who the real audience of this game is, teenagers and adults or kids.




Macho Man -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/9/2021 22:22:04)

Motherhood can mean different things to different people, it's all subjective. For some it can mean nurture, for others it can be nature. I would agree that it would be weird if this was the ONLY "motherly" related item in the game and this was how they chose to represent motherhood but it is not. There are ten's if not hundreds of items related to motherhood and the most are just the standard flower/nature themed items that we know are there. This is just one of many interpretations of "motherhood" that are in the game. It's based off an ancient piece of art and the name reflects that. The concept may be ancient and obsolete but I like that we can include it in for it's artistic value.

And I really think that you guys are neglecting to take into consideration how other characters and items are presented. I promise you that no one is going to comment on this weapon like how people comment on characters like Safiria, Nightmare Queen, and the Godmother pets. If you had no issue with those characters but have one for this weapon then I don't know what to say.




Nameless King -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/9/2021 22:38:44)

I don't see any problem with the weapon art tbh unless it's a real 3D naked woman or something~Even if there is some minors that are playing this game,I don't think that they would sexualize or even be arouse by a stone statue~Unless they are a weirdo




Incantatus -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/9/2021 23:46:06)

Take a look at Altar of Ragnarok in AQW. It also features a "naked woman."

There's not problem with this art.




Sphinx Jevoha -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/10/2021 0:11:59)


Hello Guys:)


I think the artwork is fine - it's a stone statue with womanly features. There is nothing "sexual" about it, no nipples, etc. What would you like to see instead of her breasts? Bazookas?

@GwenMay I'm not sure whether your issue is regarding the "inappropriate artwork" or the "misrepresentation of womanhood."

Sounds more like a feminist trigger to me!

Are there better designs for the weapon? Sure.

Does the weapon need to be redesigned because you think women with large, umm, features, have no place in AQ? No.

Cheers!




Tacos -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/10/2021 12:21:30)

That's actually how a (real life!) fertility/mother statue looks like, from the past and until now. Women back then was shown as motherly, so that's the point. It shows the womanhood and the 'mother' of the woman. Women still even go to these statues and in museums today to help with with their own fertility or just sightseeing, that's how popular they are.
I have no complaints of how its drawn, there's no EXPLICIT features on it anyway.
And before you complain, breasts, no matter what size, are a natural thing in everyday life. I mean as in nipples or genitals. If 'barbie doll anatomy' gets a pass in every single thing like actual dolls (and statues), then so will this.


EDIT: "Personally, I do not wish to see naked statues of anyone". But there are also (famous) naked statues in real life too? They're not played to be lewd, just so happens to be naked. Which Venus of Willendorf also is... And some of the statues even have explicit genitals. Children also get to see them too in museums. I don't get where you're coming from.

EDIT 2: "I also do not think it is an appropriate representation of the concept of "motherhood"
By that logic: fertility is not a symbol of womanhood. What?
Fertility is not solely about bearing children, its about nurturing things to life. That's why a bunch of women goddesses have a role of fertility, because women are so caring, and encourage the growth or development of others. It's about productiveness, protectiveness.
Going back to Edit 1, some of these goddesses also have revealing breasts or somewhat fat, which further exemplifies the point here that breasts are natural/breastfeeding and women have a trait of nurturing people.

EDIT 3: "In fact, I imagine many mothers would be uncomfortable with their children, especially young children, seeing that statue at all."
Why? Seeing breasts? Breastfeeding exists.
Her being fat? There's a lot of fat mothers out there and women gain a lot of weight during pregnancy to ensure the safety and growth of their child(ren).

EDIT 4: I also wanted to point that the statue also shows in early middle school-ish school-books. Anatomy of both the man and woman too. Naked people of various also show in art galleries, either as a painting or statue. I don't get the "think of the children" logic of your post if the problem is about the anatomy. There are even explicit naked people in said galleries and they aren't even pornographic. There's a difference between casual nudity and explicit pornography. Children know this, at best they would laugh at it ala "lol naked people are funny".

Going through your post multiple times, a lot of your problems seems to stem about the natural traits of a woman.... There's not even misrepresentation anywhere on the statue. I'm confused by the logic of some of these points.

AQ staff, if you're thinking about it, please don't change the art! It's fine as is!


edited my post a bit so it wouldnt be read as rude




Lorekeeper -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/10/2021 13:02:49)

There is a fair amount of room for debate when making a point about artistic interpretation, but several posts have strayed well to the side of good faith discussion. There is no need to seek the most uncharitable interpretation of a post, and especially not of the poster's intent, in order to express disagreement.

Please remain respectful going forward.




EternalDragonX -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/10/2021 13:40:47)

Agree with RobynJoanne. Staff could have gone with anything and they chose this? Unnecessary.




Aura Knight -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/10/2021 13:51:51)

If you don't like the weapon don't buy it. It's not as if it's a must have item. Just adds a neat interaction with beast builds by giving pets and guests the chance to inflict elemental vulnerability when that isn't already their original effect.




I Overlord I -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/10/2021 14:57:29)

quote:

a game largely aimed at minors.

This may have once been the case, but not now; this has not been true for a while. Most current players were children who fell in love with the game and stuck with it -- most of us are in our 20s.

What's more, we frequently touch upon extremely dark and heavy subjects like genocide and xenophobia in widespread releases like month-long wars, which are much less "child-friendly" than some naked statue that will only be seen by a small niche to begin with.

Moreover, the idea of bare breasts inherently being "bad" is ethnocentrism at its finest. Most of the Eastern world isn't quite as puritanical in this regard. Besides, arbitrarily sexualizing something like this statue is as silly as doing it to Michelangelo's David (which is just a tad more explicit).




Istar_Magus -> RE: Is Ancient Mother Staff's Art Really Appropriate for AQ? (5/10/2021 22:39:38)

It's a reference to an ancient relic, so sexualizing it is kind of weird. This kind of thing is in the history textbooks of kids around the world. My kids have already seen it because of we study and practice Non-Christian religions. What purpose does this extreme pearl clutching achieve? Talk to your kids about sex, don't make it weird.




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