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SeigusDarkon -> RE: =DF= August 13th/30th Design Notes: The Maleurous: Reckoning (9/1/2021 9:19:51)
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^above TY for clarification
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They attacked Myalos before Notha and him had a chance of discussing/ negotiating.
As someone who claims to have served in the military, I would think you would be familiar with this. When the enemy that you KNOW wants you dead (and the Avatars KNOW Notha wants them dead, they literally have a 10k year history with her) suddenly ambushes you, your first reaction is NOT to think: "Well maybe if I offer to parley they won't shoot at me and will listen instead, despite our history." and it is instead to FIGHT and ATTACK before the foe has a chance to do the same. The Avatars were in the right there. They acted as one would expect an entity with basic preservation instincts to act.
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Yes, but I absolutely should TAKE this firearm out of his hand!
They should entrust the power to someone else, and maybe return in a few years.
There is no indication that such a thing is possible in this case, purely by the setting's logic. The Avatars ARE their power more or less. They are either alive and therefore have a chance to become active once more, or they are destroyed and can, as Notha would put it: "never be a threat again." Trying to separate them from their power without them being the ones doing it and consciously working themselves through that process would likely just result in killing them with a massive fallout for Lore and the various Elemental Planes. We don't know just how potentially destructive the fallout could be if you try to kill Lore's literal PANTHEON.
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I still believe they could choose how to act,
Sure, in the same sense that a child, ignorant of the wider world and of greater context in general can choose to take up a certain course of action that is fully informed by and the result of their incredibly limited understanding of the world and how it works. Here's a good example, we don't hold those who are found to be clinically insane fully responsible for their crimes or acts. Why is that? Because they are ruled to not be what we would consider "in control of their actions." The Avatars aren't insane, but they are a new kind of case altogether that is very similar. As I explained before they are like AI that just started to develop actual sentience and need to be treated as "recovering lunatics" from a legal/moral perspective. They may have been able to "choose how to act", but when the end result of Option A and the end result of Option B are the exact same and the only difference is what color of ending you get, is that really a choice? An exercise in free will? I tend not to think so, personally. Because of their Destiny mandate and Destiny-leaning nature they likely could never even conceive of any option other than: "Destiny Option A" or "Destiny Option B." To then hold them accountable for choosing one of the Destiny options instead of Doom when as far as they were concerned it was impossible to choose those options is a bit daft.
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Character>: It sounds like a tough position to be in, but does that excuse the mistakes you've made in the past?
Neso: It is indeed a difficult task, but our mistakes are our own. We accept that.
If we accept the "insanity" defense or some variant as valid here, this is relatively meaningless, other than showing that the avatars are beginning to develop the ability to truly understand the consequences of their past actions. Someone operating on a limited understanding of the world from the beginning of their existence as the Avatars were taking blame upon themselves is not really a strong argument for anything other than that they are developing empathy and a sense of personal responsibility.
I noticed you didn't even address my military AI metaphor. Likely because you failed to be able to pick it apart to make a counterpoint.
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throwing them without a proper replacement isn't a good plan.
Agreed, but knowing human nature I'm almost positive her plan was some variation of her taking their place. Typical power grab disguised (even to her) as a revolution/usurpation (humans are masters at lying to themselves).
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Every other war, invasion etc. was happening. Like, Black Winter? How many men died?
Lots, sadly. So many people have presumably died in DF's past wars, but the role of the Avatars is not and was never to prevent any and all conflict, even the ones with high casualties. That would require insane levels of interference to the point of mind-controlling everyone on the planet. Despite being an Elemental, Caitiff was no doubt considered too much of a "small fry" for the Avatars. It didn't yet threaten the entire balance of Lore, and we were already on the path to stopping it, so intervening must have looked to the Avatars like a pointless exercise. Perhaps now they regret not doing more, with their lessons from Lock and Key.
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it took ages to make them see the truth.
You also have to take into account that the Avatars doubtless don't view time like we do. They are eternal and are thus slow to change. To us fleeting mortals adaptivity and flexibility are everything because we're only around for a short time. When you're an eternal deity, you tend to get very stuck-in-your-ways and become slow to change and adapt. This is why I stressed in my original post that the Avatars need time. Not just time alone as orbs to reflect, but time spent seeing things from others perspective, from the ground level like us. Hammering them because they are slow to change is a bit like getting mad at your grandparents for not adapting quickly enough to using a computer or smartphone. Cut them some slack?
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From what, exactly, they were protecting us?
This is not a rhetorical question. I am really confused. What were they supposed to do, besides sending us to hunt the Maleurous?
The Shadowscythe as a whole. The Mysterious Stranger was merely one of many Shadowscythe (Doom) entities that would see Lore and the entire universe devolve into chaos and darkness. The MS was merely chosen by prophecy to be "the one that got away." It is all but stated in the OG cutscene with the MS standing over Drakath's dragon body that the presence and influence of the Avatars is what keeps the seething masses of the Shadowscythe OUT. The only way (until the MS got in) for Shadowscythe to survive in the physical, Avatar-protected universe is for them to bind themselves to weapons (creating Doom weapons in case you didn't know). Once bound to that weapon, the spirit is stuck in its new vessel as long as it exists on that plane. It cannot simply separate from that weapon when it wants to. This law was reinforced by Caitiff's transformation before the final fight, where even after losing the host body it had attached itself to it still remained inside the axe it inhabitated. It is now a physical object that needs to be carried, wielded, and can only influence and corrupt its wielder to see its will done. If the wielder's will is strong enough, the spirit becomes the vassal of the wielder and not vice versa, a very risky situation that doesn't really allow for the sort of event that happened at the climax of Book 1. The MS managed to barely sneak in without needing to bind itself to a physical weapon, and spend centuries (if I recall correctly) gathering power JUST to manifest in a form powerful enough manipulate Valen (Sepulchure) into becoming the tool that Doom needed to bring about the prophesied End by creating the perfect weapon: Dracolich Drakath, and then having the Mysterious Stranger finally, after centuries, bind itself to Drakath as an ultimate manifestation of Doom powerful enough that even the avatars could never stop it, only the combined power and wills of The Saviour and The Destroyer.
Without the Avatars, the elements that make up the universe would likely grow increasingly chaotic and uncontrolled, allowing the Shadowscythe to pour in, literally DOOMing the universe. Comforting thought.
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And finally... In re-reading the script, I've noticed that the choice was between saving the Avatars and kill them. AFTER they lost their power.
Well finally! See that's what was bothering me, mostly. Choosing to help Notha destroy (or permanently neutralize which basically implies the same) the Avatars when they are helpless, vulnerable, and dormant for the reason you gave:
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But I didn't want them to stay in position.
in your 2nd post post is what led me to write:
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You are doing moral the equivalent of advocating killing an infant because it tripped over a firearm that some irresponsible doofus (in this case the infant's parents) left lying around and the bullet killed or injured someone.
Because the way you phrased it originally and the fact that you sided with Notha indicated you very much wanted them dead, despite in the second post saying you merely wanted them disarmed. They already WERE disarmed. The debate was not whether to remove them from power, that was already a consequence of the conflict. The debate was what to do with the now helpless Avatars: destroy them, or protect them in the belief that time (and hopefully future interactions with the Hero and the people of Lore) would see them change and become balanced guides and protectors.
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