Weapon Specials (Full Version)

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CH4OT1C! -> Weapon Specials (11/9/2021 18:50:34)

As of late, the staff have been doing a fantastic job of catering to less mainstream builds alongside the ongoing updates to Mage-oriented classes (e.g. Necro). These changes have also meant that vocal members of minority gimmicks/sub-builds have been increasing their calls for the greater representation of their niche e.g. this thread. Whilst reading through these calls and arguments, I noticed the common absence of an old yet important aspect of AQ game mechanics - Weapon Specials.

At a superficial level, this absence is hardly surprising. My discussions tend to heavily involve members of the community that specifically aim to optimise one aspect of their gameplay e.g. Nuking. On this front, the right choice of weapon special is already a foregone conclusion. No-procs (for those that don't know, weapons without a special), are heavily favoured by FO builds because they offer an additional damage multiplier as compensation and don't interrupt the casting of weapon-based skills. For FD users, 100-procs (a "special" is activated every time you attack with the weapon) are superior because they bypass armour leans (and thus, avoid the reduced damage output of FD armours). However, I also recognise that many people may have other priorities, such as aesthetics, or even just that they like the rare chance of potentially getting lucky.

So, with that in mind, I've decided to create a discussion thread on weapon specials, centred around the following broad questions:

What kind of weapon special rates do you prefer and why? Do you prefer to avoid them to maximise damage output? Do you like a 10-proc just in case you get lucky?

Would you be open to using weapons with more unusual proc-rates? In a discussion on discord, @AnimAnimalKing brought up the notion of weapons with a 50% proc rate. Do you think that kind of unusual chance of special occurrence is a good idea, or would you prefer things the way they are now?

How would weapon specials need to change before you were to change your opinion? e.g. If you play as FO mage using 0-proc weapons, what would it take before you started to open up to 10, 20 or even 100-proc weapons? Do other aspects of the weapon influence your decision?

Hopefully, with this thread, we might gain a better understanding of how the community feels about weapon specials and their current place in the game.



RobynJoanne -> RE: Weapon Specials (11/9/2021 19:55:19)

I like 5-proc weapons personally because they feel substantially powerful enough to warrant interrupting my weapon-based skill. I believe the primary issues people have with interrupting weapon skills are that the resulting damage is weaker than if the proc had not occurred and that the weapon may lose or gain an effect that the player does not wish to have. The latter is most exemplified by Nith's Fang, which changes its effect to a burn from an SP heal and has gotten substantial criticism for being unpredictable.

I like 5-procs. I believe that says enough about my opinion on weirder proc rates. That said, I believe 50-proc would be too unreliable to be anything more than a niche in the current state of the game. Having the weapon special come down to a metaphorical coin toss makes the weapon vacillate too much between being best suited for the two extreme leans.

If neutral armors were the majority instead of the minority, I don't think people would mind weapon specials too much. The issue comes when leans come into effect, as normal attacks and weapon specials benefit from opposite leans. One solution is having more armors like Bloodzerker and Beast Form that boost all weapon attacks to skill-level. This removes the issue of weapon procs interrupting weapon-based skills. Another is to add items like Dreiko Shadrack's suggestions of Procedure Override and Fortune Navigator, which respectively force the activation of weapon specials and remove them entirely. This removes the unreliability of weapon specials.

Besides these ideas, however, I believe I'd use more weapons with weapon specials if we got more with rarer special proc rates. I don't use 20-proc weapons, but I'd use 10-proc and 5-proc weapons. I believe a 20-proc like Nith's Fang would be much more well-received if it had the same effect but stronger for its proc instead of its burn, so I could see myself using a 20-proc with a unique enough effect that doesn't lose it on weapon special.



J9408 -> RE: Weapon Specials (11/9/2021 20:12:22)

I remember there was a light weapon that had a powerful special that was like a "Apocalypse". I forgot the name, I would not mind seeing more low proc weapons like that.



RobynJoanne -> RE: Weapon Specials (11/9/2021 20:27:24)

@J9408
I believe you're talking about Ragnarok. That's a 5-proc and one of the weapons (the other being Tempest Scimitar) I was thinking of in my reply.



zippinbolts -> RE: Weapon Specials (11/9/2021 20:28:07)

I think 20% proc weapons along with some neutral armors would be great to see again.



Dardiel -> RE: Weapon Specials (11/9/2021 20:34:04)

As a FD player, I would be open to unusual proc rates and would personally categorize proc rates as:

0%/no-proc: Needs an effect that makes the weapon useful beyond damage, if it has something useful then I like it and if it doesn't then I don't. My favorite 0-proc weapons include the Pzycho Sabre (the only remaining source of uncapped MRM reduction, as far as I know) and Ectomancer Staff (I like imbues to get effects from weapons that might be the wrong element, and I like autohit to be able to rely less on DEX)

5-10%: I'd only be comfortable with it as a weapon that's basically 0-proc (IE good utility when not triggering the special) that happens to be particularly good sometimes.

20%: Probably the lowest I could comfortably use where I wouldn't expect the base weapon to do anything other than damage, but 1/5 is still really iffy so the effect would have to be really good/unique or just icing on an already good non-proc effect. I think that if the effect is icing, then this would be the most fun rate to use; it's rare enough that getting it is a nice surprise, but the base weapon is solid enough that you don't feel like you're falling behind on the turns that you don't get it.

35%+: This area is pretty comfortable, from here up I'd be okay with taking a weapon just for the special. I think that around 35-40% would feel like the most fun rate if the special is the focal point of the weapon, as it'd still feel exciting to hope that you get the effect but it's rare that you would have to go several turns without getting it.

In summary, I feel that lower rates would require the non-special effect to pick up some slack while higher rates could more easily get away with having a (sub)standard base.

As an aside, I also feel that since specials are theoretically more aligned with an FD playstyle, an argument could be made that specials would do well to themselves be more aligned with FD - my memory could be wrong but I think of X-proc weapons as usually having damage specials, when they could be specials that trade damage for status application or other non-damage effects.



PD -> RE: Weapon Specials (11/9/2021 23:54:19)

I'd like to see an expanded concept towards procs of 1%. Typically, these are reserved for insta-kill effects like Powerword Die and UltraGuardian Dragon. However I think there may be room for innovation in this regard to apply equally interesting effects while not outright rewarding the battle. In Mechquest there were quite a few weapons that had 1% specials that had really interesting effects like:

1. Prolonged stuns (think stuns of 4+ turns)
2. Instant HP shaving (Instantly setting your enemy's HP to a certain percentage like 50%)
3. Free HP/Energy "Rewind" effects.
4. Other extremely long-duration high-power effects.

There were also weapons like Lucky Bladehenge and Kiss of the Amesha which had low percent specials but had healing effects (Free potions in-battle). Soul DRinker is the closest thing we have to this in regularly updated form but it's worth noting as an idea that could be expanded.



Kaizoku -> RE: Weapon Specials (11/10/2021 0:04:49)

The issue with low proc specials is that if it's a status effect then it's something I can't really count on or expect to happen, so it would be more of a "for fun" kind of thing. As I tend to use pets and guests for status effects, I usually end up with either a 0 proc to push damage or 100 proc to double down on status infliction. I do like Blade of Awe though, in spite of its unfortunate visual rework. Having more effects with very low proc rate (1%-5%) with a lot of power, that I would give a shot.



Red Blood -> RE: Weapon Specials (11/10/2021 0:38:30)

For me I like the low rate game changer sort of specials if the weapon can't really match up to my warrior's basic attacks, and is on the more common side it could result in possible losses in challenging encounter. The only special weapon I use today is the Blade of Awe and even then I've thought of swapping it over to the Power Word Die rate up on the weapon. So I'd like more low chance rate things that can turn an encounter around be it a nuke in a weapon, an barrier of some sort, or some sort of status affliction that can earn you just enough ground to turn the tide vs something that makes content harder for just existing on a weapon. The powerful suggestions PD mentioned above would be more in line with my play style and make the effects seem special vs just damage you can often casually outpace.



Sapphire -> RE: Weapon Specials (11/10/2021 0:59:00)

I talked about this here -> https://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=22394351


To me, the problem with specials is numerous.

1. As designed, a weapon with a normal special is only better than 0 proc and 100 proc in neutral armors. Nobody actively uses neutral armors.
2. I outlined what I thought should happen, but as usual an argument citing the status quo ensued. This is unacceptable to me, as I feel as though there is a huge issue with the current system. In that thread, I mathematically outlined a change. I may have missed something, as was pointed out, but that doesn't change the fact math can be manipilated to garner a specific outcome, which is the greater point and only serves as an excuse, a distraction, or outright inability to recognize it needs changed.

The change that's needed is to make more than 1 type of weapon equal in all 3 main armor types. In my opinion, and explained in the previous thread, weapons with specials should be equal no matter the armor lean. In the previous thread, with a bump in special damage, the result was:

FO- 0 proc and weapons with specials were equal
FD- 100 proc and weapons with specials were equal
Neutral- Weapons with specials wins out versus 100 proc and 0 proc

This was accomplished by buffing weapons specials to 1.75.

But if memory serves me correctly, it was shot down by the usual people.

I'm not attached to the specifics, as I am to the idea that because nobody uses neutral armors, nobody uses weapons with specials *UNLESS* the special does something fantastic, which almost none do.

And that point was also brought up.

3. Specials arn't special. Hence...why nobody uses them anymore.

It just needs changed. The problem is likely the same as with everything else. Time constraints and available bodies to do so.



In addition, I have personally found in looking for specific effects on weapons, you either get them on 0 proc on landed hits, or upon a special. If it's on a special, it's an automatic pass for me. Since weapons with specials is essentially an outdated concept, the effect's power is usually weaker than modern ones that land with 0 proc. The entire thing is a mess.

The lower the spec rate, the deadlier the effect/damage should be.



JasCK -> RE: Weapon Specials (11/10/2021 5:22:43)

Short to say, depends on what special it is.

The best example to me is the Nulgath's Wrath, especially when I'm readying to finish my fight with one more hit.

The Nith's Fang as mentioned, I use it because I wish to have a SP heal magic weapon, and the 20-proc is a hard time to me.

So again, it is all depends on what purpose the weapon is build for, if I am using an SP regen weapon + weapon based skills, I dont want any special happens.

Like the Tempest Scimitar, I use it because of it's LS bonus, which means I wish to do some big dmg, I ll then welcome its powerful special.

Special is something that makes the weapon special, but not unreliable.



ruleandrew -> RE: Weapon Specials (11/10/2021 5:57:08)

One way to save regular weapons:
Weapon need regular attack that give up damage for guarantee attempt on status effect x and weapon need special attack that give up damage for guarantee attempt on status effect x.



Zennistrad -> RE: Weapon Specials (11/10/2021 11:42:41)

I'm fine with using weapons with specials on my mage characters, since weapon attacks are less important for those. The Magestaves available in the Mage class shop are fairly good weapons to use with the new Spellcaster lean armors, since they have a very high 40% proc rate, and the weapon specials ignore the lean penalty.

That said, for any character that's not a mage, I find weapons with specials a hard sell. The reason for this is fairly simple: weapon specials override weapon-based skills.

This, IMO, is a design mistake that severely limits what offensive warrior/ranger builds are capable of. The whole point of active skills is the ability to manage your resorces and control when and how you use them - the possibility of a weapon-based skill being overridden by a weapon special all but ensures that weapon specials aren't going to be useful for those kinds of characters.



Legendary Ash -> RE: Weapon Specials (11/10/2021 15:12:13)

Specials contribute most to builds that do not maximize their Mainstats to the cap to attain optimized stat damage and BtH, this grants players that choose to invest partially in End/Cha/Luk as opposed to the accepted archetype Mainstats, a significant amount of bonus power relative to how much the selected proc rate makes up for the deficiency in said stat, a 50% proc contributes 60/1.1 melee% that is slightly less than half of a Neutral lean's output, over an optimized build at the cost of being unable to utilize no procs effectively.

Ballyhoo's Temp weapons, Great Forest Axe a 20% proc and Flaxe as a 50% proc will be eventually updated to -10 scaled level standard that Adventurer no drops received a few years ago, the latter should receive permanent gold priced elemental variants in Ballyhoo's Sariel's Vigil, Harvenger and Test Armours shop to fill the equipment gap for high procs as the Temp version is already assigned a random element upon being obtained from her.

Elemental and 3 attack types toggleable weapons that share Sacragon's Talon/Nulgath's Wrath/Onroth's Rage that are Gold/GGB/Token designs variants should be released, it shouldn't stop at the 20% proc variants once complete, but other procs as well, they are desirable to Armors with weapon based skills of 200% melee as it applies a *2.075 boost to their next attack per special at the cost of the character taking a hit of Harm damage, which aligns with the popular Hpcost equipment trend and the special is worth occurring as it is slightly stronger than a skill in melee worth that also stacks multiplicatively with skills to conserve resources.



Sapphire -> RE: Weapon Specials (11/10/2021 17:26:38)

Sooooo....

Weapons with specials contribute to non optimal stat spreads, armors (neutral), stat spreads and armors that are the least utilized in the entire game due to them mathematically being inferior in nearly all cases for damage output..... (meaning your'e doing more damage w/ 0 proc in FO, as well as in FD w/ 100 proc) so therefore, leave them alone?

That's a head scratcher if I have ever seen one.


After some thought, I think weapons with specials just need to have MUCH better effects attached to the specials.

For example (i will be removing accuracy out of this example) The Nith's fang, at 0 proc gives you approx 52 SP per landed hit. In 10 turns, lets say you have a 2 hit armor. That's 104*10= 1040SP

If there was a Nith's Fang version, but had a 20 proc special and the SP was only gained on the special, and let's say the special was 2 hits also. At 20% proc, that's 2 average turns in 10. So that would mean to MATCH the 1040 SP, the special would give 520 per special, or 260 per landed hit. But since the weapon's damage is lower in both FO (compared to 0 proc) and FD (compared to 100 proc), the SP should receive a BUMP to allow it's lower damage to gain a better overall effect, so maybe you bump it up by the SAME percentage that a 20% proc weapon loses out in damage to a 0 proc, or between 3.8% (diff between 0 proc and 20 proc in FO and 6.3% (diff beween damage in FD between 100 proc and 20 proc) and the middle of that 5.05, or you could just do a 5% bump, or 1092 SP in 10 rounds, or 273 per landed special hit (assuming 2 hits on the special.

Now that weapon increasingly becomes worthwhile... Just need to adjust fr accuracy.






.*. .*. .*. -> RE: Weapon Specials (11/11/2021 17:49:16)

What kind of weapon special rates do you prefer and why?
In general I would say the lower the better because the game nowadays rely heavily on skills and an expected damage output per turn. However I still use some weapons with a 20% rate, among them are Nith's Fang for SP generation, however when its special goes off, it is not to my amusement. Maybe if the burn would be exhanged for an SP generating burn instead? [:)]

Would you be open to using weapons with more unusual proc-rates? In a discussion on discord, @AnimAnimalKing brought up the notion of weapons with a 50% proc rate. Do you think that kind of unusual chance of special occurrence is a good idea, or would you prefer things the way they are now?
I am definitely not opposed to unusual proc-rates actually I am all for it, but with higher proc-rates I believe that there has to be a fair trade off however still balanced.

How would weapon specials need to change before you were to change your opinion?
One idea could be revolving around a weapon with let us say a 50% proc rate, when a special is triggered it first gives you a menu with a few options to pick from.
For example, you could either chose to proceed and let it go off, you could dismiss it with either gold/sp/mp and carry on with whatever you were about to do. You could instead save it and supercharge the special to make it more potent, In all honesty whatever effect that is already in the game could be considered as an option when a special goes off.
So to sum it up, if I could have more control over what the special should do, then I would be more than happy to pick up such a weapon.

One a side note, it is quite funny how the game has changed, in the old days I was quite happy when a special went off because they did great damage in comparison to what I could achieve.
I am sure I am not the only one that used to grab the temporary Fangmaw's Axe praying that the special would go off in some tough battles, and when it did it was amazing!
With all games there is progression and I believe the power creep over the years has made specials less desirable, though the lucky strikes was a step in the right direction.
Specials in general are lacking that little extra thing to be able to compete with today's power standards.

The only scenario which I can think of when specials are more desired are when you start a new character, because at lower levels they can be brilliant. Soul Drinker is one of the weapons that has saved me numerous times when I was leveling up a low level character, but yeah that is a token weapon. [:)]



Sapphire -> RE: Weapon Specials (11/11/2021 19:19:48)

When I run my backlash build, I use Nith's Fang for SP regen, and when the special goes off, I don't mind it because it's just a little extra damage. It's nice because I'm usually not concerned at what element it chooses as the SP heal or DoT special is just something extra, since I'm doing the bulk share of my damage via backlash.

But I would like to see the weapon special make a comeback. It just needs to compete. To me, it should make no difference what the special rate is. Average damage if you have a 20% proc vs a 50% proc should be *the same*, it's just that any attached effect's potency should be what's different. The lower the rate, the stronger the effect.

This should be relatively linear. A 10% special's effect should be twice as powerful as the same weapon and same effect but it having a 20% special rate. This, of course, can always be modified (paid for) with damage changes or BTH changes, etc. And that should provide enough diversity.

And I *still* think a 20% proc weapon should be approx equal in average damage to a 0 proc in FO armors, and approx equal to a 100 proc in FD armors, no effects aside.

And the effects should always average out the same too. 100 proc, 0 proc (with attached effect), or 10, 20, 30 etc proc who's effect is attached to the special

Those changes should revitalize the weapon special idea, because I'd be willing to bet, as it stands, staff are likely nearly confined to making only 0 proc or 100 proc weapons as nobody is using anything else, just like how they figured out to ditch mid off/mid-def armors because nobody was using those, too. It's almost the same argument, in a small way.

Instead of ditching them, revitalize them.



roobee -> RE: Weapon Specials (12/19/2021 16:55:05)

The frostval past weapons proc of guardian dragon seems alright if you are facing a tanky mob in theory. I don't use it myself that often.



Kilvakar -> RE: Weapon Specials (1/14/2022 21:41:21)

I actually really like weapon specials. I never got on board with the "FO, attack only, no-proc weapon" playstyle. I still fondly remember the days when weapon specials were extremely useful and I'd use a weapon with a good special and win tough fights because I got lucky and the special procced a couple of times, or procced at the right moment :)



Noremak Soothsayer -> RE: Weapon Specials (1/14/2022 22:32:35)

This is exactly what I think needs an update. There's no reason for a STR build to go outside of an FO armor with a 0 proc weapon. In my opinion, specials weapons need a buff.

5% and 10% Low proc weapons might be the right idea to get warriors and non-bow/wand to use FD, MD, or neutral armors. Thrale's Scorn and Magnablade are examples of toptier weapons with procs (still using the health-loss-for-increased-damage meta but whatever.)



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