Spellcaster lean and spell-type skill elecomp double dipping (Full Version)

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roobee -> Spellcaster lean and spell-type skill elecomp double dipping (12/25/2021 23:02:01)

Compared to neutral lean, spellcaster lean takes *1.25 incoming damage to pay for *1.375 spell damage (there are other ways of viewing this too which I'll omit for simplicity).
However, spellcaster lean armors with spell-type skills have elecomp that factors incoming damage. So the *1.25 incoming damage is being counted twice, to pay for *1.375 spell damage and to pay for elecomp.

Weapon-type skills in FO armors don't factor armor lean into elecomp, so do not suffer from this double dipping.

To address this double dipping I propose (with some help from others for the idea) that when the armor is spellcaster lean, the armor is treated as neutral or FD lean for elecomp calculations.
Neutral makes the most intuitive sense but elecomp treats FD as the reference (FD gives *1 factor to elecomp) so don't know if that will affect balance considerations.

The work required to do this should be minimal. If elecomp is calculated for armors individually only the few existing spellcaster lean armors need to be changed. If elecomp is calculated globally then only a factor needs to be added to the equation which checks whether the armor has a spellcaster lean status.



Zennistrad -> RE: Spellcaster lean and spell-type skill elecomp double dipping (12/27/2021 18:53:18)

This makes sense -- I'll be sad that the Necromancer's Grand Haunting is no longer comparable in damage to a Bloodmage skill, but the Spellcaster lean has itself gone through a few changes and rebalances over the years and an elecomp change makes the most sense given its weird place in the current meta



CH4OT1C! -> RE: Spellcaster lean and spell-type skill elecomp double dipping (12/30/2021 14:09:08)

This suggestion makes sense superficially, but fails in practice for the following reason:

When you look at the current Spellcaster Lean, you have to ask yourself whether you are:

i). Trading Weapon Damage for the Spell Boost or...
ii). Trading Damage intake (i.e. the monster deals more damage) for it.

This assumption makes a big difference to how the boost provided by Spellcaster Lean is calculated, as well as the elecomp it receives. The calculation for Spellcaster lean is provided on this thread (replace the *0.8 damage output with *1) and assumes that the player trades in weapon damage. This has repercussions for the elecomp because we have to treat it as a FO armour that sacrifices weapon damage for its Spell-based skill boost. As such, it needs to receive the elecomp a FO armour would expect in order to be balanced. Put simply, the current calculation is fine.

We could choose to assume that Spellcaster Lean armours trade additional monster damage instead. In this scenario, we would treat it as a Neutral Lean armour that takes additional damage (and thus receive Neutral elecomp). However, we would have to multiply the potency of the Spell boost in the Lean by a factor of 1.4 because monster attacks deal 140% melee (rather than the 100% melee of a player attack).



roobee -> RE: Spellcaster lean and spell-type skill elecomp double dipping (1/1/2022 21:35:22)

quote:

We could choose to assume that Spellcaster Lean armours trade additional monster damage instead. In this scenario, we would treat it as a Neutral Lean armour that takes additional damage (and thus receive Neutral elecomp). However, we would have to multiply the potency of the Spell boost in the Lean by a factor of 1.4 because monster attacks deal 140% melee (rather than the 100% melee of a player attack).

FO lean takes x1.25 incoming damage and deals x1.25 outgoing damage. It doesn't have a factor of 1.4 for its outgoing damage boost, so spellcasting lean shouldn't have one.

However, the thread you linked does clarify something that resolves the issue (I no longer think spellcaster lean is double dipping). In the thread the spell damage is payed for with the outgoing damage you give up (you would also get the same results if you view it as the increased incoming damage you take) on expected number of turns you normal attack (8 out of 10). That's the part I missed. Since you are still taking more incoming damage (or giving up outgoing damage) on the expected number of turns you spellcast (2 out of turn) it makes sense to apply that to elecomp for in-built spell-type skills, just like how it's currently done for in-bulilt spell-type skills in FO leans.

As brought up earlier, an alternative could have been to use the negative consequences of spellcaster lean on all turns (10 out of 10) to pay for the spell boost, and have no elecomp. I'll add that you can do this whether you view the starting point as an Neutral lean or FO armor. The end result is the same.

I will note in spellcasting lean the spell boost and elecomp multiplicatively combine. However multiplicative combination is a commonly known discussion topic so I won't get into that topic.



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