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Lorekeeper -> RE: =AQ= Stat and Training Overhaul (3/26/2022 12:18:29)
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Huge Text Wall Ahead! Here's a Summary
Hello, everyone! Firstly, I'd like to thank everyone who provided feedback Over the week, comparing our plans to player feedback made it increasingly apparent that there would not be enough time to tackle the revamp's foundations in a single week. To be fair to the coder working on the very time consuming task of updating the related systems and tackling the stat changes themselves, I've been authorized to disclose some documentation about why the project is so much more time consuming than it might seem from the changes listed in the first post.
The current changes are inspired by, but not directly following, a proposal that I raised in order to tackle some urgent build problems in the game. In this proposal, I explained these problems, their root cause, and an example of how I'd like to tackle it. This example would not have been sound, or at times even possible, to follow, and I'll be bolding the reasons below. This is largely because we'd have needed more hands on deck, but also because there plainly isn't time to create a paradigm where CHA can be segregated from another stat.
I'm sharing it at this time because it informs why DEX was coming out so overloaded compared to STR: The overall idea required complex system work, and the individual stat ideas had different 'weights' in how much time they'd take to finish. A simplified take on the suggested changes to DEX is much simpler than the work required for the changes to STR.
What will we do, then? We acknowledged that DEX was coming out as "STR for Ranged but better", even after cutting back on some of the proposals. Moreover, a distinct Ranger niche wouldn't be assured until future changes. Therefore, we'll only be releasing the core changes (Primarily segregating BTH and damage for the main stats to not depend on DEX, minor additions to END) along with the training overhaul. We've taken your feedback into account and will be holding off on further changes until very soon, so that IMR can take a full week to work on applying said feedback to main stat identity.
The currently discussed primary stat identities, are:
STR: Steady damage throughout the entire fight.
DEX Work in progress. Utility or different damage curve are examples in discussion.*
INT: Burst damage followed by a lower steady damage.
* We need the dedicated time to make sure it's good for both offensive and defensive identities due to the anti-synergy of focusing on status effects with offensive builds.
Without further ado, here are the problems that the revamp was proposed in order to tackle, and an example of a suggestion for a new model (To inform why stats seemed to get different attention from a first stage revamp).
General Problems
Dexterity is attempting to be both a primary and a secondary stat, and consequently lacks its own distinct niche. There's always been an issue with DEX having too much going for it, but the problem of build identity specifically has had a lot of major ripple effects. As a primary stat for Ranged damage, it's dependent on Strength for its damage component. As a requisite secondary stat for Strength and Intelligence builds, Melee and Ranged damage forcibly depend on it. Even pet attacks require it for accuracy.
This is the root of all build identity problems, and even the smaller issue of Endurance being undervalued is partly dependent on it rather than wholly caused by the time-efficiency preferences shaped by a nuking meta. A third of the final stat points for most builds needing to go to DEX makes losing out on further offensive potential less of a consideration.
Two long-standing consequences that aggravate over time are the disappearance of the Ranger build identity and the fact that Werepyre hybrid logic creates a branch of this overall problem. Both of these niches are problematic to develop items for, as the latter involves choosing which to leave behind between traditional/werepyre hybrids while the former is flatly impossible to cater to. MC sets, Frostval sets, and packages are thus condemned to be a gamble if oriented towards hybrids, and pointless to attempt if aimed at offensive Rangers. The specific reasons are outlined in the next segment.
Normally, a status system is the tool of strategic diversity and difficulty management that allows RPGs to work through this kind of issue. However, as major status effects are available to all builds through years of items, the only remaining solution is to uproot the entire problem via the stat revamp.
Ranger Build Identity
Because of the role of STR in Ranged damage and DEX in all accuracy, offensive Warriors and Rangers have the exact same stats and playstyle, with ranged weapons typically having an accuracy lean. That effectively subsumed offensive Ranger into Warrior. Defensive Rangers endure as the smaller niche, using 100-proc weapons to maintain resource efficiency while attacking from FD armors. If one goes for INT and bows instead of DEX and wands, though, it's only the relative dearth of wands that holds this Mage setup back from being a better FD Ranger through access to spells.
FD Rangers thus have a shrinking niche, while Offensive Rangers have no niche beyond the aesthetic of using spears until such a time as a stat revamp may create a mechanical distinction. In the meantime, there's still pressure to create spears so that the revamp doesn't happen with no recent items to impact, but they have much higher pressure to be good with a razor thin margin of error. Any other item that is oriented towards offensive Rangers will still wind up being Warrior items by nature, due to requiring the same stats.
Hybrid Logic vs Hybridization
Typically, RPG build hybridization is the sacrifice of specialization in one build to gain versatility by mixing it with another. The practical effect of this is gaining access to additional options at the loss of vertical performance. I point out the obvious not to inherently argue from precedent, but from the reason it exists.
In AQ, traditional hybrids gave up a secondary stat in order to pick up an additional primary. Being already stuck using DEX on top of their first primary, there was only one way to go: STR/DEX/INT. This provided access to all primary attack options at the cost of whichever they would have chosen between Lucky Strikes or beast options.
Any item that isn't dependent on a secondary stat could be good for a hybrid, then, because the whole point is access to the full variety thereof. Dedicated hybrid items can still exist, of course, by rewarding investment in multiple primary stats (Generally STR and INT, as DEX is mandatory regardless). For instance, a melee weapon with a status or damage toggle fueled by MP would be an example of rewarding hybrid stats.
Enter Werepyre logic. To solve the dependence on mandatory DEX, hybrid logic splits accuracy and damage between STR and DEX. However, this dependence is part of a wider problem for all builds, as outlined above. The only 'problem' it solves for hybrids is the very tradeoff inherent to hybridization: They gain back their possible peak damage, at the cost of the versatility they were trading it for. This enforces non-standard stats instead of rewarding them, and locks the character to Werepyre logic armors, or weapon attacks with Werepyre logic weapons in other armors. Because what this setup gains is damage optimization, it's even better for them to focus on magic weapons with double Poelalas than it is to in any way build like a hybrid. If they happen to be playing at the start of the year, they can even negate the downsides of lacking DEX with New Year's Surprise.
Werepyre created a new niche entirely instead of addressing the problems with the existing one, and one that has little choice but to fill the armor inventory with Werepyre variants. The existence of a niche creates demand for it, and Werepyre hybrids often express disappointment in the gaps in their coverage or the frequency with which they're addressed. However, since the value of hybrid logic is dependent on a fundamental stat problem, every such item would likely have to be tweaked when the revamp hits, and thus adds to its workload.
In short, Werepyre logic is a self-perpetuating problem.
General Proposal
As a result of the above listed problems, I submit for consideration that the stat revamp be regarded as an urgent update, and that an essential aspect of it should be decoupling DEX from the accuracy of all non-Ranged damage so that it may have its own niche.
Now, this would be a huge shake-up of the status quo. Everyone could effectively have two main stats and a secondary, two secondaries, or all three main stats, without a loss in accuracy. However, it would result in a setup that rewards hybridization without enforcing it, and allows DEX to stand on its own. Builds and design space would both flourish. There is an element of baseline power creep involved in this because of boosters: A <Mainstat>/LUK/CHA build would have the full benefit of these pets and guests.
However, soft caps are already in place for this very issue. Additionally, the upper end of player damage is currently ballooned out of control for questing by a number of combinations other than boosting, and the Void revamp stands to offer a controlled environment for higher difficulty battles. This downside is far outweighed by the benefits.
Example of a Suggestion
Segregating the accuracy of each damage type to its corresponding stat would solve most build identity issues and open up a lot of design space. However, we still have to deal with DEX having too much going for it without taking away too much either.
An ideal solution would be to do away with the dependence of each damage type on a stat and make each main stat modify all direct damage differently instead. However, we're not DragonFable. Spells alone throw off the viability of this, and even if they didn't exist, it would have to be VERY early in the development cycle for the approach to make sense. However, we can take a few pages from this book in order to solidify the niche of each stat.
I propose, then, a system in which each main stat governs the damage and accuracy of its respective means of attack, as well as the implementation of minor 'milestone' perks with small bonuses. (Note: This would not have been nearly possible in a week's work, and was not a sound suggestion.)
As an example, these could be earned and active every 50 stat points invested into a main stat, starting at 100 for a total of 4 perks. Secondary stats could instead have only two or three. If we wish to keep DEX's role in initiative without making it a mandatory stat all over again, then each primary stat could get a small initiative boost as one of its perks, with DEX getting a second perk for it. The resulting stat niches and examples of perk ideas are as follows:
STR: Melee damage and accuracy. Perk ideas:
- Bonus to all weapon damage.
- Trusty weapon: A generic 0-proc, -BTH lean melee weapon for the temporary slot, automatically uses the opposite element of the no-drop.
- Initiative bonus. (Note: This and all later 'perks' for initiative made little sense as proposed, as it'd be simpler to modify the initiative formula accordingly)
- Small bonus to all melee damage that scales with enemy power.
DEX: Ranged damage and accuracy. Perk ideas:
- Initiative bonus.
- Bonus to damage versus enemies suffering from damaging status effects, or scaling with status effects.
- Initiative bonus.
- Skill SP cost discount.
INT: Magic damage and accuracy, MP capacity, per the existing standard. Perk ideas:
- Increased MP potion capacity. (Note: A questionable idea, given that it'd require quantifying something that essentially exists outside of balance.)
- Gain an accurate harm spell for the temporary slot. Single hit, no frills.
- Initiative bonus.
- Minor reduction to incoming damage while mana is below the value of a spell.
END: Health capacity. Perk ideas:
- Status resistance.
- Reduced potency of incoming stuns.
- Improved healing %.
CHA: Pet damage. (Note: Other initially suggested ideas such as not depending on a primary stat wouldn't have worked due to how long it'd take to rework *all guests* or implement a very dirty solution to make this not break the game. Not depending on a SPECIFIC primary stat would be a different matter.) Perk ideas:
- Reduced potency of incoming mental effects (Fear, Panic, Control)
- Gain an animal companion - A generic pet for the temporary slot. Follows no-drop element.
- Guest cost discount.
LUK: Lucky Strike damage. Perk ideas:
- MRM bonus.
- Small initiative bonus.
- Very small LS chance bonus.
Hybrid Stats: Bonus Melee and Magic damage based on having both STR and INT, with a further bonus of a weapon or spell with hybrid stats is used in an armor that also has them. (Note: As a reminder, this entire segment of the post is an example. We don't have a confirmed change to hybrid stats, and feedback for this would be welcome in another thread)
Proposed Ranger niche: Resource-efficient skill casters (Credit where it's due, this idea is inspired by Imry), Ranged-locked armors being priority recipients of initiative boosts. Bonus damage conditional on condition upkeep rather than immediate burst (Mage) or unconditionally steady (Warrior). (Note: As above, remember that this was an individual idea and not the current design direction.)
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