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Grace Xisthrith -> RE: =AQ= STAT REVAMP BALANCE - CHA (2/6/2024 19:08:51)
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Two main topics: Pet in turn model, guest as gear
Pet in turn model:
Dreiko correctly points out, pet in turn model not accurate to what pets do in game. Proposal suggests limiting pet BTH to mainstat only, not CHA, solves this issue.
My perspective is pros: Pets work with model
Cons: pets don't scale with CHA as much, very very unthematic (Dreiko correctly points out them scaling half with mainstat is already unthematic, I agree), directly weakens misc, armor, and other gear support built around pets scaling partially with CHA
Opinion: Model is entirely unrepresentative of an in game turn ATM (SP regen = 25%, Player turn value = 45% melee higher due to style bonuses, guests exist), just on base stats, ignoring items. I believe it's a staff statement that style bonus works outside the turn model, so it's technically allowed. I guess if that's the staff opinion, that's objectively true in terms of balance with respect to the model, but I'd like to propose that maybe the model shouldn't be followed to a T if the players gets 33% more power (more bc armor leans but who's counting) than advertised by built in stat behavior style bonus that directly changes the values in the 20 turn model.
TLDR: My opinion is model is exponentially outdated, weakening theme and gameplay of gear to make zero sense (your extreme physical strength / agility / mental acuity inspires your pets to strike with total accuracy?) is not a worthy tradeoff to appease the model which doesn't work anyways.
Should pet accuracy scale solely off CHA? Discussed later
Maybe my opinion is wrong, and staff don't agree with it. That's completely fine. I propose instead a different way to calculate pet accuracy from stats that doesn't weaken beastmaster gear arbitrarily.
If Mainstat >= Vstat: Pet bth = Max (Mainstat * 4 / 25), (CHA * 4 / 25)
Else: Pet bth = Mainstat * 4 / 25
With this simple equation, beastmaster gear with CHA isn't weakened, if CHA is higher than mainstat, it will be used for pet accuracy. This is situationally a buff to pet accuracy, as before, you'd have to use a DEX steroid and a CHA steroid of equal power to get this benefit. If we're petrified of situational buffs, which doesn't seem to be the case given the style bonus proposal, then we can instead:
If If Mainstat >= Vstat: Pet bth = Max (Mainstat * 4 / 25), (CHA * 2 / 25 + Mainstat * 2 / 25)
Else: Pet bth = Mainstat * 4 / 25
Pretty much the same, except you get half CHA and half mainstat OR full mainstat instead of full CHA or full Mainstat. Unless I've made an oversight, which is entirely possible, one of these two equations implementations would fulfill the meaningless turn formula requirement for pets, and not weaken prexisting beastmaster gear designed with CHA to accuracy in mind.
Guest as gear:
I CBA rereading 250 posts, but I'm pretty sure staff referred to guests as skills / spells somewhere in there. With that being said, there is a question I have.
Is there a reason guests cannot solely scale off CHA? This question is specifically proposed to staff if possible.
There are a few implications for this, and I'll go through it.
If guests can scale solely off CHA, this makes them much more simple. Half damage and half accuracy without CHA, before style bonus. This is very easy to work with, and makes thematic sense, because you know, Charisma, companions, joy!
I suspect this is not the case. That leads to the next implication:
Guests require dual stat scaling to use, so they should be compensated for this. The standards on alternative stat use are a bit scattered and several are negative costs (Sneaking Diamond Dog gets a fat x.5, Werepyre costs an MC to use STR and INT), however I view this is a relic of the pre stat revamp era. Back in the day, you had DEX and suffered, or didn't have DEX and had to pay for it, which is presumably why werepyre STR INT costs an MC to scale with.
Nowadays, we don't have that issue, and there are two modern standards to work with:
Tenebrophage / Hexbound: These take a 5% MC and make it worth 7.5% melee for scaling with a second stat (1.5x multiplier input to output)
Fallen Angel: Take a skill / effect that scales half and half with one stat and another stat (STR and CHA in this case) and multiply its output by 1.25x.
Interested in how I got those numbers for Fallen Angel? Me too, feel free to check out this analysis I asked about in QA on the package's release
So, I view there to be two possibilities:
Guests are CHA gear (or single stat gear in any case) and don't need mainstat for accuracy, but would not receive a dual stat use output multiplier
Or: Guests are dual stat gear, and should be compensated by receiving either 1.25x output per input, or 1.5x output per input, as outlined in the above precedent of the modern examples of dual stat gear we have. Now, I'm against powercreep, and I don't want guests worth 90% melee, so perhaps this 1.25x or 1.5x modifier could be used to decrease upkeep cost, or at least be split between damage and upkeep cost. Finally, it could be used to replace the style bonus, and the style bonus could be removed, weakened, reworked in some variety. That might be a hard pill to sell however, idk
Finally, talking about why pets and guests aren't just CHA based solely.
I would assume this is the case currently for the reason that CHA isn't a mainstat, and having CHA be in control of both pets and guests would give it more power than it currently has.
Is that still a goal of the staff? If so, guests at minimum should be compensated for requiring dual stat scaling. I would also propose staff to revisit this goal, and consider if the pros of it outweigh the cons. Also, some staff members have acknowledged CHA weapons as unbalanced, but not CHA spells. If CHA spells are balanced, and guests are skills / spells, there's no balance reason not to have guests scale solely off CHA.
Thank you for taking the time to read through this post, have a nice day :)
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