Bard of War Weapon Set Bonus Elecomp Questions (Full Version)

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Grace Xisthrith -> Bard of War Weapon Set Bonus Elecomp Questions (7/12/2024 20:09:14)

Basic idea of the post, should the bard of war set bonus get elecomp? Set bonus being the weapon giving pet crit while attacking with the weapon of the same element. Here's the weapon: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=22417242

Pet crit chance boosts are .4% melee to 1% crit chance, I'm pretty sure. So, 2x crit chance (10%) or 3x crit chance (20%) would be worth 4% melee and 8% melee respectively. These don't work with the FSB logic, I believe FSB is usually 5% melee per item, so you'd expect slightly different numbers, but that's not what the GBI is about.

Potentially, you could have the armor grant the weapon elecomp, as it works with the same assumptions. The recent tribal shaman armor and weapon do this, the weapon spell gains elecomp when used with the armor. Same (ish) with broomstrider armor. AKA, there is precedent for a "FSB" of two same element items giving elecomp to power.

That being said, I'm gonna use 1.5x elecomp as an example for Bard because it's easy, a 1.5x multiplier on a 3x pet crit chance would not be much, instead of 20% added, it would be 30% added, so just another 4% melee. That's next to nothing for elecomp, the price of using the wrong element gear to fight a monster.

I'd make a case that in theory, since you have to attack with the weapon or otherwise do damage with an elemental effect, like a spell, you could say that the value of the elecomp is 100% melee x Elecomp -100% melee. Basically, you have to basic attack with the weapon, therefore your action is worth at least 100% melee, so the 100% melee of wrong element gear should be compensated by the 1.5x multiplier.

This would mean you'd get 50% melee of value instead, which is... ~125% pet crit chance. So. using off element gear would provide an actually significant benefit.

The implications for this would be relatively wide reaching. Obviously, this elecomp would only work with bards of the same element as their weapons. However, you could apply this logic to bloodzerkers and bloodmages, (and other items, but those are very easy comparisons) which I think would actually make them much more desireable. Since they already have high elecomp, you'd get closer to 70% melee worth of output (assuming a basic 1.7x elecomp, I don't actually remember the elecomp for bloodmages or bloodzerkers), so you'd be gaining 70% melee for using the weapon with the corresponding armor. For bloodzerkers, I'd say that "should" be +70% damage in one way or another, for bloodmages, I'd say +35% spell damage, as an example.

Obviously, this would really change up the game, and maybe accidentally propose updates for a lot of old items that have FSBs. I don't necessarily think it's a good idea for the game, it would add a boatload of power to already very strong items, but I was curious about people's thoughts about it. Let me know if I made any mistakes here, or significant logic leaps.



Sapphire -> RE: Bard of War Weapon Set Bonus Elecomp Questions (7/13/2024 7:57:57)

I find that elecomp isn't always about damage mods. I think it can and should be applied in a variety of ways. If elecomp is 1.7, an effect could be boosted by 1.7, for example. That may not always equate to the same "melee %" but to me it's more about continuity with what's intended by design.

In this case, this is about what water pets/guests are doing. I wouldn't want elecomp on the weapon, or the bard's CHA skill. I would want it on the pet and guest. Maybe the guest gains it on damage, and the pet gains it on the LS rate. Stuff like that. The normal pet LS rate is x2, but if in same element bard it's 3x, or 1.5x more. I don't know what BoW elecomp would be, but I bet that's close.

So I think it's probably completely fine on that front. I do think, though, the guest needs this same 'elecomp' added in for water guests if in water BoW someplace. This could be damage, FS rate, elecomp to upkeep cost, elecomp to status power in status mode, etc etc . We should be seeing other ways to apply elecomp like effects outside of damage, IMO. So I'd be fine with one of the non pure damage options, personally.



This probably might open pandora's box onto older stuff, I agree. But again, elecomp doesn't always have to be about damage.



CH4OT1C! -> RE: Bard of War Weapon Set Bonus Elecomp Questions (7/13/2024 8:25:06)

Based on other FSBs? no. Apart for some rare exceptions e.g. the void awakening set, elecomp isn't applied.

However, you could reasonably argue that FSBs should be worth more than the amount they currently are, based on what you sacrifice to activate them. I think going down that route would be more productive as a GBI. I assume the recent choices to include elecomp on certain items (like the Tribal shaman you mentioned) are most likely internal efforts to reflect this.




dizzle -> RE: Bard of War Weapon Set Bonus Elecomp Questions (7/13/2024 9:44:18)

Yea I think just at face value it makes sense to give the FSB elecomp somewhere. I see what you’re saying about this potentially affect multiple other FSBs but I think this one I slightly different. You need to use the water armor with the water weapon which is already counter intuitive, but then that “bonus” from using both of those items gets funneled into a water pet. I definitely fee l like that warrants elecomp, and I’d argue it even more so deserves elecomp than something like the shaman staff just because technically there’s more pieces involved which means you have to intentionally be sub optimal to get the marginal boost. That is, in a nut shell, precisely what elecomp is. If it doesn’t get elecomp then I’d have to call into question the Tribal Shaman set and the Void Awakening set. Tribal shaman gives elecomp to the damage weapons skill when used with the armor. Void awakening gives elecomp to the pet/guest when used with the armor. It only makes sense that elecomp should be applied somewhere with the Bard weapon just because it already needs requirement of using a suboptimal set up with 3 pieces of equipment [armor, weapon, pet] whereas the previous 2 sets mentioned gain elecomp with their set bonuses that really only require 2 pieces, meaning by definition you are being less optimal with the Bard set up.

I’m pretty much rambling here but given the examples of tribal shaman and void awakening, it makes sense to give the weapon elecomp and have it be applied somewhere at least if you want to be consistent, especially because you have to be even more sub optimal than the other 2 examples. Plus it’s just more power and will be more fun and make it more appealing and worth using, ESPECIALLY if we start seeing more ele variants of the bard weapon in the future



CH4OT1C! -> RE: Bard of War Weapon Set Bonus Elecomp Questions (7/13/2024 11:09:31)

@Dizzle: Although I fully recognise the parallels you're drawing here to Tribal Shaman and Void Awakening, I think it's worth highlighting...
  • Most FSBs fall under these conditions, and the majority don't receive elecomp. @Grace Xisthrith has already adequately highlighted that there are major ramifications to this. Just as it's fair to compare the new weapon to Tribal Shaman's elecomp, we could also compare to Bloodzerker and Bloodmage, both of which don't gain elecomp on their FSBs. To be clear, I fully recognise there's good reason to question why elecomp isn't involved in FSB calculations. I'm only pointing out that we're in a grey area - it's inconsistently applied, and the majority lack it.
  • It's also worth mentioning that, if an FSB involves elecomp, elecomp is treated as the FSB. It's not that they gain extra bonuses to crit rates, etcetera.

    For both of these reasons, I think the scope of this discussion should be significantly expanded. While the new BoW weapon is absolutely relevant to said discussion, the root problem runs far deeper. We need to know whether FSBs should incorporate elecomp, and (if so) how that elecomp can be 'spent'.



    • Sapphire -> RE: Bard of War Weapon Set Bonus Elecomp Questions (7/13/2024 15:13:43)

    The FSB calc should always = elecomp in power, IMO. (or very close) And IMO should not just be restricted to damage, or a singular idea. I think it can and sometimes could be split amongst several aspects.

    For example, if I have an armor that has a defboost toggle and an elevuln attack, and had 1.80 elecomp, I could take 1.40 and apply it to the defboost and 1.40 and apply it to the specific elevuln, if I so desired. (40% increase to those effects) Stuff like that.

    By using elecomp as the power budget, FSB power no longer is all over the map.



    LUPUL LUNATIC -> RE: Bard of War Weapon Set Bonus Elecomp Questions (7/14/2024 6:59:43)

    quote:

    Just as it's fair to compare the new weapon to Tribal Shaman's elecomp, we could also compare to Bloodzerker and Bloodmage, both of which don't gain elecomp on their FSBs


    I think its different here is that, in the case of Bloodmage/Bloodzerker the "FSB" was only comprised of weapon+armor so 2 items,however for Bard you need 3 items to get the set bonus, you need Water Bard of War armor, Water Bard of War weapon AND a Water pet as well, so thats 3 item types of same element to get the set bonus unlike Bloodzerker of Bloodmages.



    CH4OT1C! -> RE: Bard of War Weapon Set Bonus Elecomp Questions (7/14/2024 12:57:03)

    @LUPUL LUNATIC: Although the number of items required to activate the mechanic is different, I don't see how that difference is relevant to the application of elecomp. In both cases, you have a "defensive" piece of equipment (armour) and at least one "offensive" piece (pet/weapon). While the precise value added by FSB may vary based on the number of equipment pieces needed, the base conditions for determining whether elecomp is appropriate (i.e. whether you're attacking/defending using inappropriate elements) are still fulfilled. Do you have a reason why elecomp isn't appropriate based on this difference?



    dizzle -> RE: Bard of War Weapon Set Bonus Elecomp Questions (7/14/2024 20:51:29)

    It depends on how stringent you want to be with when and where elecomp is applied. I don’t see any reason why some items/sets can’t offer elecomp as a flavor set bonus if you really are making a sacrifice to get the set bonus. You could argue that it’s a large disparity between the value of the set bonus and value of the elecomp received, but theres similar examples of getting way more power than you’re paying for all over the place in all item categories so that argument doesn’t hold much weight in my opinion. I think that since with the bard example (and void awakening for that matter) you’re forced to use up a majority of the players value in melee % during that turn being in what’s assumed to be sub optimal equipment to gain the set bonus (Player’s turn [100%] and pets turn [20%.]) On top of this, one has to assume that if the player is using a Bard armor and the Bard weapon, they must surely be a beast master. This means that they are throwing away even more melee % being sub optimal because companions are worth more to beast masters. This I think could be a couple solid reasons for arguing why the Bard and Void Awakening example are different than something like Zerkers. Regardless, I also see chaotics point of zerkers and co getting elecomp also, definitely not afraid of seeing that and I agree with gibbys initial point about this possibly giving them another breath of life (yay more power creep! :D) I think this should be the primary talking point of the thread or a new thread should be created to talk about set bonuses and elecomp in general to see different perspectives on when and how it should/can be applied and how it could positively or negatively impact the game.



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