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The Stat Inflation Problem

 
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1/22/2011 2:43:29   
PD
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Note: This is only not a final draft. I'll need corrections, feedback, and additional useful notes. Remember, this is not the final version!

The Stat Inflation Problem
By: PD/Mr.SUP/SUP/SOUP
(I preferably (perhaps even exclusively) go by the last 3 aliases now)


Table of Contents


To make this easier, I've made a Table of Contents for this post, so people can instantly goto a part they feel like reading. Use the search function of your browser (CTRL + F) and type in the section bracket. Example: Type [SIP1] into the search bar and press enter. You will be taken to that section immediately. This is useful because when I update this post, It will save much more time as you can get to the updated stuff instead of searching this post for it.

1. Introduction [SIP1]
2. Back to the Basics [SIP2]
3. How the Problem Works [SIP3]
4. The High Level Factor [SIP4]
5. Frostbane: the Pestilent Disease that should never have existed [SIP5]
6. The Problem of Equipment enhancements [SIP6]
7. How many branches can a tree have? [SIP7]
8. The Root of Un-Sportly Behavior [SIP8]
9. To Every problem, there is a solution [SIP9]
10. End Notes [SIP10]
11. Credits [SIP11]




[SIP1]

Introduction


Hey all, it’s me. Some of you guys might know me, others may not. Although it’s highly un-likely that I’ll ever catch the staff’s attention with this post, I at least will make it my goal to inform the general public of this issue. Today I’d like to address a most serious problem to battle balance. I would like to call it Stat inflation. For those of you who are un-familiar to this iniquity, I will explain and inform to you what this is. Please give me a moment of your time, and in exchange, you will receive one heck of enlightenment. Time to begin this journey.

Well, before I get to my explanation of things, I’d just like to say this: Where do most problems of game balance come from? The answer; In many cases, it’s caused from an over-abundance or a scarcity of any gameplay element, whether it’d be from stats, to inflation. Now, what does this have to do with Stat inflation you ask? The answer is right in front of your face: Stat inflation is the process where weapons of the same level increase in stat value. Base Damage, Base Stats, and modifiers included. Now, I know some of you did not get that right off the bat. I’ll give you guys a visual example of what I mean…



[SIP2]

Back to the Basics…


I bet many if not most people use Thylek’s most handy Epicduel Compendium. (If not, you can get to it and download it here.)

What I will do here is a comparison of weapons within the same level. First, go to any one (I’ll use swords) of the WEAPON Categories (Staff, Clubs, Claws, ect..), and then, click on the Stat Modifiers option. This allows people to view weapons from top to bottom, from best stat modifiers, to worst. The untrained person will think “Oh… well, I don’t see a problem with that, as long as it goes from highest to lowest level. Minor discrepancies don’t really matter all that much”. Look again sonny boy, there are a LOT more than “minor” discrepancies. Pay VERY close attention to the items on the top of the list. They’re the most recent released weapons, as most weapons are released at the current level cap. They have the most stat yield, no doubt. Now, click the option to sort it by LEVEL. This time, you’ll notice that level 1 is on top of the list, followed by increasing level down. You can also think of this as a sort of time travel, since the lower levels were also Epicduel’s past level caps. With this, you will see yet another trend, or at least a scramble the way I look at it. Look at the stat modifiers of the weapons as the levels progress. They are ANYTHING but organized! No standards, no organization, no balance! NOTHING! Absolutely NO standards! The levels that you were playing from levels 1-29 HAD NO STANDARD AT ALL, AND IT NEVER DID EITHER. NO STANDARDS SINCE DAY 1! But what does this mean to your confused self? This is where it gets tricky… You’re in a rock and a hard place as some might say. Since Epicduel never had a standard from day 1, the lower levels was a free for all. Example: A level 9 weapon (Bio Blade) had better stats than a level 27 Weapon! (Scrap Cleaver). In addition Bio Blade was a 86-94% CHEAPER OPTION, AND WAS A FREE PLAYER WEAPON! What does this mean? Epicduel needs a set standard for lower level weapons yes. What does this also mean? This means that because most of the low level players have the “newbie factor” which makes them ignorant to the best weapons, strategies, builds, ect, but THE LEVEL DIFFERENCE FROM 1-26 DIDN’T REALLY MATTER! Because there was no standard, which means that there’s absolutely no guarantee a level 26 player would have any advantage over a level 22 player, the level difference factor does not take its place. Yet.



[SIP3]

How the problem works


As you may know, I explained the problem a bit in the last sentence. However, I should really explain what it is more in-depth. Here’s how it’s inner working are done. Let’s say you have a weapon. All the weapons are made for use in the same level. We’ll call it weapon A. Weapon A’s pretty good for a time, until Weapon B is created. Weapon B just happens to be more powerful than was Weapon A. As a result, Weapon B is the new good weapon. Weapon A is still around, but nobody’s gonna buy it. Why you ask? Because WHY would you buy a less powerful item? Why would you make your character worse? And that is where the problem lies. Where this takes off, Weapon B is great, then Weapon C is made and is more powerful than B was. Now nobody will bother to buy neither A or B because C is better than both of them. And since nobody will be buying less powerful weapons than the ones in their stock, then the people who create the weapons will have no choice BUT to make more powerful weapons, causing each weapon to be perpetually and predictably more powerful than the last. One could only imagine the problems that arise from there. So there you have it. For those of you who didn’t bare to even take a few minutes to read that, I’ll use visual representation.

Weapon A Made -> Weapon B Made, better than A -> Nobody Buys A because B is better -> Weapon C is made, which is better than A and B -> Nobody buys A or B anymore because C is nwo better than both of them -> Repetitive and predictable cycle of one weapon becoming better than the other -> Stat Inflation

Now, this affect Epicduel in a bad way. If Epicduel could be a game where it could be run and processed without money, then it would. But we need not to forget that Epicduel is a business, and they still need to make money in order to pay for the costs of the game. To keep the game alive, they need people to purchase in-game items for varium. However, if nobody buys anything, then Epicduel cannot live. This is what happens when you make a weapon more powerful than all the rest. Nobody buys anything that's less powerful than what you already got, and to keep payed players paying, they need to make something MORE powerful to keep them buying, forcing them to upset the balance of the game, or else they will go out of Business. I'll show you guys how Frostbane made this problem happen, but that's for a later section.



[SIP4]

The High Level Factor


Let me get into more depth into the subject of the paragraph before the one made above. As you may been informed by now, The level difference from 1 to 25 doesn’t really matter. However, once you get to level 26, the game really does start to turn on you for multiple reasons. This is where stat modifiers from weapons actually becomes important to a win or loss. In fact, most of the builds from high levels are only possibly BECAUSE of the stat modifiers. Had you not had the incredible stat modifiers that the weapons at higher levels give you, you would never be able to have high Strength and Dex, or any other combination of high stats.

Let’s go back to our handy little compendium from earlier. Click on the Stat Modifiers button to see the items with the highest stat yields. There is the occasional “Super Weapon” (Omega Blades, Mjolnir, Caden’s Wrath, Betas), but besides that, the weapons with the highest stat yields are the weapons that are only available from level 30 and above. Now that you look at this, look at the stat modifiers of these weapons. They’re all above +20 Stat mods. Never was there a consistent climb. It just happened like that. If you look from the previous levels, there’s no steady climb to get to this many stats. In fact, excluding “Super Weapons”, the highest stat yield was barely 18 at best for a primary (Rune Cleaver). Now look at the jump from level 29-30 alone. It’s a jump of 6 stats from the primary alone. All I can say, is that FROSTBANE IS THE WORST WEAPON TO HAVE EVER HAVE EXISTED IN EPICDUEL.



[SIP5]

Frostbane: the Pestilent Disease that should never have existed


To all you Frostbane Owners who may be offended, I’ll just start with this quote. As Neil Armstrong once said, “One small step man, one Giant leap for mankind”. I’ll apply that quote to this, by saying, “One big step in stat totals, one giant leap for future stat totals”. What does Frostbane have to do with this? Easy. Remember back in December 2009 when Frostbane was released? Yeah, it was THE weapon of it’s day. Not only did it have the best base damage of it day, it also had 6 more stats than any weapon in the game. Now that may not seem like much, but think of it like this. Have you noticed that every weapon after Frostbane had more than the actual max of it’s category? This applies to Wrist Blades, Swords, Guns, Clubs, AND Staves that succeeded Frostbane had much higher stats than the best weapons of it’s level before Frostbane.

Now think of it like this. Frostbane when released was THE most powerful weapon in the game. Therefore, the people who bought Frostbane the first time would probably not buy anything else unless it was comparable or surpassed Frostbane. With this, 95% of players won’t buy anything that was not more powerful than the things they ALREADY had. To them, it just doesn't make sense to buy less powerful weapons. What does this mean? That means unless anything was equal or more powerful than it, they wouldn’t be buying varium weapons, and that would lead Epicduel to lose serious revenue. To solve this, they gave birth to the modern Stat Inflation Problem. From that point on, in order to satisfy the paying players, they had to push the boundaries of what was supposed to be. Weapons at the old rate shouldn’t have had that many stats by level 30. In fact, if things went the way they should’ve gone, then Level 32 weapons would barely have 20 stats without enhancements. But then, Frostbane made the unthinkable happen. More Stats; more problems. With stat totals rising at a higher rate than ever before, this caused builds and stats to become inflated. Extreme builds then became possible. How else was someone going to make a good strength builds without a decent amount of stat points? Very easily, we all know a STR Build that has 96 Stat points will do better than one with only 48. How was it possible to get 96 Stat points? Easy, after Frostbane, weapons had unbelievable stats. A few examples are undoubtably our favorites: Frostbane, Cupid’s Bane, BunnyZookas, Rixties, and more. These are the weapons you know that you love because of their great stat modifiers. Without them, I bet it’d be WAY harder to make Extreme Support or Strength builds, and you yourself know it. Without these huge modifiers, they probably would be VERY rare or un-conventional as they’d never work or not work very often.



[SIP6]

The Problem of Equipment Enhancements


Now, what also stacks to this problem is the Equipment enhancements. Think of it as an extending Flicker Jab (Special Kind of Jab that HOF Boxer Thomas Hearns used to dominate 6 weight classes). Basically what I mean is that it gives you that extra boost. 24 Stats on that Frostbane might seem deadly, but if you add 10 enhancements to that, then that’s 34 stats from the primary alone. Now that Armors are now enhancable, that gives them yet another boost that gives them the advantage. Let’s use the 2 most stat yielding equipment as an Example; Frostbane and Founder armor. Now, add the totals from their un-enhanced states. That’s a total of 40 points just from the armor and primary. Now, fully enhanced from the both of these, and that’s an extra 20 points. That’s 20 points that the person with these two things will be able allocate to any stat to any given time. Now, that said, that boosts your stat modifiers from 40, to 60. Add that in with a Zooka and gun, and that’s gonna no doubt hit 80-96 stat modifiers. Now, ask yourself this, if the weapons right now at the highest levels didn’t have such great stats, how would extreme builds fare? Probably not so great. Extreme builds NEED the stats to cover their weaknesses. Without a decent amount of stats, it’s not possible to make a high support or high strength build. They’d just be totally wasteful, and probably would not even exist. Without the extra help of Stat enhancements, you probably at best would have like 76 stat modifiers (At level 32 assuming you have all rare equips and varium), and that’s with these series of overinflated weapons.

No doubt this problem was created as the by-product of players that seek to fuel the wants and best interests of the community’s temporary desires, not for the favor of it’s general continuity. Hence the statement, “What’s popular isn’t always right, and what’s right isn’t always popular. To this, I say we probably have to downsize our wants and desires a bit in order to help maintain the game’s continuity and it’s future. We’re not the only generation of ED Duelists, what our ambitions are will undoubtedly cause the very demise of future ED prospects. This current generation (to even my own chagrin) unfortunately won’t last forever, nor will they stay with Epicduel forever. It’s only natural that great people and great generations come and go. Thinking about our own personal wants will make it harder for the generations to come. I think in order to help Epicduel, we need to change our mindset a bit by going a few steps back.



[SIP7]

How many Branches can a tree have?


Yes, I know it’s an odd title.I don’t expect you to answer this one in the literal sense, and in fact, you’ll never know how the title makes sense unless you try to get off the rational thinking and go a bit into theoreticals; Think how this connects to epicduel and this topic. Still confused? Think of it like this; Stat Inflation problem is the Tree. From the tree, comes the branches. The Branches in this case would be the problems that existed because of this problem. Have you ever been angry by all the “Extreme” builds? You know, High Strength Builds, High Support Builds, or even High Health builds? Chances are, you’ve been angry at one of the 3 builds at least once in your entire time of playing Epicduel. These are only the branches of the “tree”. Metaphorically, Stat Inflation made “Extreme” builds viable, and extremely effective. Let’s analyze how the “tree” made the “branches”.

High Health builds. This made Xendran extremely famous no doubt, and I myself am a disciple, and loyal follower. However, I must point out that without the great stats of the weapons he (and everyone else who made High health builds) used to make this build, it would’ve never worked. You wouldn’t have enough stats to have a viable build. Unless you have great stat modifiers nor a skill that saves points, it’s just not possible to have 162 Health, decent defenses, and a strong offense. (Deadly aim and mid-high support), though I can also say that this problem made the problem of agility because the team needed to do away with this build. They made agility, which was extremely unpopular to the general populace.

High Strength Builds. Ah… We’ve all seen this. No matter what the class, Mercenary, Bounty Hunter, or Mage (Not to the same extent for mages, but still), they’re extremely powerful. And if I’m not mistaken, Strength builds are now extremely common in One on One mode. Now think what this has to do with this thread. The reason these builds work is because of the same reason of High health builds. There’s enough Stat modifiers to make this work. Thanks to stat inflation, it’s now possible to have high health AND high Strength. Take stat inflation out of the equation, and you’ve got a pretty in-effective build. You would not have enough stat points to have enough health to onslaught the heighten damage of your low defenses. Your attack would only be considered average, and easily be countered with a simple shield or Intimidate. In summary, this build wouldn’t be possible without stat inflation either.

High Support Builds. This one without stat inflation fares even worse than the last two. High support usually comes at a price: Low Defenses, and low attacks, but in compensation, luck has a higher chance to be on your side. However… Let’s once again take stat inflation out of the equation. You’ve only got a middle amount of support, and your Defense and offense is even worse off, and you must rely on an attack that can be mitigated to 50% and can only be used once every 4 turns. Your luck factors won’t favor your either. Your support’s only average, so no luck factors for you sonny boy. Let’s now add stat inflation back into the equation. Now you’ve got decent stats all around. You’ve got ungodly support benefits on your side, your defenses are decently, and your attack is as good as necessary, maybe a bit more if you decide to chip off some of that high support to go into your attack. See how much stat inflation just made high support builds become? Just like the other two “extreme” type builds, High support is only possible through stat inflation.

By now, you’re probably seeing the link between it. Stat inflation really is the Tree of all balance problems! Without this problem, we probably wouldn’t even HAVE balance problems. It’s really a necessary sacrifice: Sacrifice the stats of our weapons, to get rid of all balance problems and to pave a comfortable way for the generations of the future. After all, the generations of the future are really going to become something of a lifeline to a stable and safe future.



[SIP8]

The Root of Un-Sportly Behavior


Now, if I've noticed to glance at one thing, it's that the great and Friendly Sundance made a visit to Epicduel. This is great for all who knew him, but he made a thread recently that really touched my heart. It was about the bad sportsmanship about Epicduel. Recently, as his thread pointed out, it's really a shame that the people of Epicduel have become less friendly and their hospitality reduced. Unfortunately, I too agree this is a problem of the masses as well. I don't have any wise Bible Quotes to share with you guys, but this is also a problem that was born from Stat inflation. I'll explain how. You see, very recently in the shadows, unknown to the public, the ammount of people with reduced sportsmanship has undoubtedly decreased. There can be many valid reasons why this problem ever happened in the first place. However, I think the problem of Stat inflation is really the biggest one of them all.

I really believe this is a direct effect of this problem because now that more than 1/2 of the active population has the most powerful weapons to access, the average of stat points in a build has increased by an exponential ammount. Now, believe me, it gives the person a feeling of supremacy and power. And with that, it's not that hard for pride to get in the way sometimes. And with pride, comes the danger of low sportsmanship; you isolate yourself from the viewpoints of people who aren't able to attain the same status nor power as you have. With this stat inflation, it's only fueled our undying want for power, and our attitude unfortunately has gone out the window because of that. The weeks that led up to my quitting, I noticed a major trend of rude people. This was even worse to people who were a higher level than me when I play on my alternate character! They had higher levels, slightly better weapons, but no strategy. I on the other hand had the advantage of a strategy that worked +90% of the time. Still, with my opponents who had better everything that me (except for strategy), remorselessly taunted me with rude comments such as "noob" or "nerd" or other 4 letter words I shouldn't say here.

Stat inflation really has ruined our attitudes; We become greedy through the demands and demands of buffing weapons which only made epicduel worse in the long run, which I believe we should do the opposite of. We need to STANDARDIZE, NOT INFLATE. We don't need more powerful weapons now. We don't need to have weapons that push the limits of what our wallets, our patience, the game's little remaining island of balance, nor anything our tolerance can't handle. We just can't. It's total economical suicide from my point of view. And with how atrocious Epicduel's critical reception is, which is pretty obvious from the dis-satisfaction of the General populance of the AE Forums, why DO we wish to further ruin the game? I thought we all wanted to attain balance, not make it worse. Epicduel's already in a pretty bad heap because of it. We belittle players with records and equipment that aren't ideal. Players who can't get these super inflated rares in time can't keep up due to many valid and unfortunate reasons, and are even hurt by rude comments that were listed above. I can't fathom this atrocity. When Founder Armor was powered up, I, one of the FEW Founders who DIDN'T get the founder armor, was buffeted by the barrage of players who ridiculed me for not using nor having the armor. And I bet, neither can you right now. So think about it, every battle, try to be nice and respect the person, even if they win because of their varium or their luck. It's a start for respect to the masses.



[SIP9]

To Every problem, there is a solution


Of course I wouldn’t make this thread without making solutions. For one, I believe that to fix this problem, several things must happen first…

Does anyone remember Xendran's Stat Values Post? I bet not many do. If you don't remember, it was a post that Xendran made that displayed the value of all the stats. First off, balancing the stat values is absolutely pivotal to balancing Epicduel. Why? This way, all builds would have equal power. There won't be better builds than everyone else. Every build will be of equal power to everything else. The only thing that would determine the victor is the person who happens to have better skill. I know a lot of people would like to win based on skill. This is the first step to doing so. Equal builds, equal gameplay. A game where SKILL makes you the winner, not luck. Currently, The Stats aren't equal in Value; For example, a Support Build would be better than a Strength build, because support has more stat yield. However, if we take that, and equalize the stats, then the two builds would be equally powerful, and the person with the better sense of skill would win, although, there's still the occasional luck factor. However, luck factors ARE needed, or else the person who goes first, or the person who goes first would most likely win, which I don't believe should be the case at all.

A Standard must become a reality. As I pointed out earlier, Epicduel is a huge mess at lower levels. No standards and prices are just random. By implementing a standard, inflation will become something of the past. However, I can also acknowledge that making a standard will make it harder at lower levels to win against an opponent that is a higher level than yourself. To solve this, it would be a good idea to bring in the question of Stats Vs. Primary Damage. This is seen in Zookas quite often. For example, Bunnyzookas have the highest stat yield of all Bazookas, but newer Zookas have much higher base damage, but lower stats and high stat requirements. This is just my personal ideal of how to balance epicduel so it’s easier to win against people who are a higher level than yourself, but still making it a fairly challenging. Point is, Standardization is a must to do away with this problem.

After Balancing the Stats, and implementing a standard, the Staff can safely take out Agility and Focus, as well as lower, or remove stat requirements on Skills/Passives. As of now, Without standardization and stat equalizing, Removing Focus and Agility would do nothing. Absolutely nothing. Why you ask? Contrary to Popular belief, removing these won't do any major effect. Talking to Xendran in many conversations, we discussed what would happen if there the team DID remove Focus and agility. What did we come to the consensus of? Simple; Nothing good would happen. Due to all the new stat requirements, I doubt many of us would feel that change. In fact, it'd probably make the game worse. The order to come by this is really that of being careful which update happens first. Here's how it should go...

1. Equalize Stats
2. Standardize Weapon Stat Modifiers
3. Remove Focus and Agility

If it's not taken with this order, Epicduel will be in quite the heap of chaos until all three of those are in Existance. And it's been argued that this would take too much work on them. True, it will take a lot of work. But that's only an excuse. If we dealt with the problem now, then we wouldn't need to deal with the problem ever again. That's the truth. Deal with the problem now, do the hard work now, and there will be less complaints, and Epicduel will be saved. It's so easy. I've practically put the answer to balancing the game right in your nose. So why not fix the problem now?

We need to be more Future oriented. When we demand items to be powerful, we are being what is called “Present-Past Hedonistic”; you seek knowledge and pleasure, while avoiding pain and only thinking of short term effects. To think in a Future Oriented mindset is like trying to predict the future in a metaphorical sense. A good thing to do in every release is to try to connect it with elements in the past, and think of the future long term effects of a release, hence the term, “Future Oriented”. I think by changing out mindsets to be future oriented we could better prepare ourselves and know the potential benefits/dangers of a release/releases to come. It’s not that hard really, just think of how something might make something in the future, like predicting the future.

We should take an effort to unify the community against the common enemy of concern. So far, we’ve been only fragmenting the community. Examples: “Oh you’re a bounty and therefore your overpowered” or “You’re OP” or “This is UP” or “Mercenaries suck” Note: None of the things are actually implied, only used as examples. Now this practically undermines the effort to destroy this common enemy. Every cycle of power change (Or one Class becoming better than the other two) only represents the isolation that the community has. However, whether we are Mercenaries, Tech Mages, or Bounty Hunters, we are all Duelists, whom are all effected by the problem of Stat inflation. In fact, if we actually worked together for once to defeat stat inflation to get rid of overpowered builds forever, the cycle of power changing would’ve been extinct and everything equal again “just like good ole times” as the Past-Present Hedonistic people would say.



[SIP10]

End Notes


My goal is not one of ulterior motives nor of one to financially ruin epicduel by fixing a problem that no doubt encourages people to buy varium. What I am trying to is satisfy the people who play epicduel. I believe happier people produce more. This is something that is repeated in history. People who are happy and content are more likely to produce more, like “Happy cows make more milk” or “Positively motivated workers work more productively”. Same could be applied to epicduel. I believe that if the people were more satisfied with the very center of what Epicduel’s all about, they are more likely to support epicduel in its future. As I said before, the chaos that we can make when we fight each other is bad, but if we unified against the common enemy/problem, we would accomplish something that would make this generation a legendary generation among legendary generations.



[SIP11]

Credits


Ah... the credits. I guess people want their credits. Here's the group of people who helped me make this post. I really couldn't have done this post, nor taken the time to put the effort, research, nor testing without the help of these great people. They are the true Heros of Epicduel, and I'll never forget them for their help in assisting me with this project.

Ashari, Polander, Xendran, Aere, Master Volcon, and Illuminator

Thank you. Thank you all. Your foresight is a wise one.

< Message edited by PD -- 1/24/2011 14:26:56 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 1
1/22/2011 3:28:55   
Shadronica
Member

Well said as always SUP!
Long but very well put.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 2
1/22/2011 3:43:31   
Maxziel
Member

A Well-thought out post.

I've been thinking about this "stat inflation" thing going on in EpicDuel and have been meaning to write a post about it but like you said "...it’s highly un-likely that I’ll ever catch the staff’s attention with this post".

The only 2 reason why I think this post would be neglected would be either:
1) Way too long for the average Forum runner to read
2) If taken seriously into consideration, some MAJOR CHANGES would have to be implemented into the game which means a crap-load of work for the Game developers.

I sincerely think this is a good work. As for some feedback, I'd say your post would trample mine(If I wrote one that is) over details and the specifics and so I don't think you need any feedback from me.

Keep up the good work and I'll be tuning in from time to time on this post :)

< Message edited by Maxziel -- 1/22/2011 4:46:34 >
Post #: 3
1/22/2011 3:48:30   
Master Volcon
Member

What a wall....
I can't believe I read the whole thing o_O

We all know this is the main problem. The problem is that if you try to fix it people are going to leave...

My solution:

*Titan accidentally spills coffee on computer*
Titan: "Woops we just lost all coding for Epicduel from the start of Gamma phase.... Oh well"
*Problem Solved* :D
AQW Epic  Post #: 4
1/22/2011 3:52:22   
King FrostLich
Member

Which is why we need to gain 8 stat points when we level up to lvl 33.
Epic  Post #: 5
1/22/2011 3:58:22   
PD
Member

Time for some Freedback...

@Shadronica:
Thanks for the comment! Long post yes (24,015 characters and 4209 words), but at least I believe it was all worth the time, research, and effort put into this post.

@Maxziel:
Yes, it would take a lot of work. However, the benefit of doing this now is a lifeline of stability, and a life support of players who will rise to support the game in crisis. It's hard work now, but the future benefits are endless. In order to successfully pull this off and herald an age of balance perfection, these are what must be done:

-Standardize equipment base damage and stat mods
-Create clear, definitive, and fair gap between Varium and Non Varium Equipment
-Create clear, definitive, and fair gap between Rares and Non Rares
-Get rid of Agility and Focus
-Remove Stat requirements
-unify the community to attack this problem, not attack individual classes.

@Master Volcon:
I don't think people would leave a game that is fair and reasonable to all. And if Titan DID spill coffee on his computer, he probably has a million back-ups of the same files. XD

@Frostlich:
Yeah... No. 4 Points per level up is fine. Reducing the stats offered from weapons will have the equivalent effect of gaining 8 stat points at level 33. If not, it's a better way to fix Stat inflation.

< Message edited by PD -- 1/22/2011 4:02:21 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 6
1/22/2011 8:32:24   
The Doctor
Member

Hm... I could say some words, but you've pretty much said them all already.
Except these words. These words are fine.

You basically hit the metaphorical nail on the metaphorical head here.
Something in particular that interested me was the bit on the Frostbane.

I suppose that everything has a starting and a stopping point... be it abrupt or gradual.
Let's see where you can go with this, eh?

Thank you,
~The Doctor
Epic  Post #: 7
1/22/2011 13:44:59   
PD
Member

Well Doctor, Frostbane is was the "Big Step Forward".

People don't realize that if this stat inflation didn't happen, ED would be PERFECTLY balanced. It's so easy to balance ED. Downsizing stats is extremely essential to balancing the game. To those of you who believe there is no way to balance ED anymore, well, this post is the solution to fix ED Forever.

Yes, I know it sounds too good to be true, but if you really think about it, the numbers do not lie. Here's a TL:DR version of what would happen if this were to happen)

No Stat inflation -> No Overpowered Extreme Builds (They would still work great, but they aren't overpowered. Shave A good 30-50 Stat mods (Enhances included), and Extreme builds are still powerful, but not overpowered)
No Overpowered Extreme Builds -> No Focus, No Agility, No Stat Reqs
No Focus, No Agility, No Stat reqs -> Build Variety Explodes
Build Variety -> Fun and numerous options to play by to enhance gaming experience.

You see, it's pretty easy as said before. This problem (along with varium prices) are the most important problems of this generation. We need to deal with it now. Failure to do so will ruin the game for future generation, and with that gone, ED will not see it's future.

BTW, I also want to keep bumping this post as much as needed. Why? To get this information into the brains of the populance. Better to inform the public about the main problems than to try to take out the roots that come from this problem

< Message edited by PD -- 1/22/2011 13:46:51 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 8
1/22/2011 14:20:11   
Crovile V2
Member

Well said bro ! And everything said there is absolutely true !
Post #: 9
1/22/2011 14:49:13   
Wraith
Member
 

Absolutely true. Now I get to save the time of writing my own...only 18,927 characters and 3582 words so far. Deleted it and now computer is faster =D
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 10
1/22/2011 16:40:12   
Maxziel
Member

I don't think a post like this could become a thread due to "some" reasons.

But I do indeed support the cause of it. Its a shame most of the players in ED don't visit the forums once in a while.
If a majority of the community supports what you're trying to accomplish, then there will be faster results.
Post #: 11
1/22/2011 16:46:28   
The Cannible
Member

All very true, how many other RPG's can you think of where almost 1/2 of your total stats happen to come from your equipment? Very, very few. And we don't even know what they were called because they were all so unbalanced and got destroyed, just like this one might be.
DF  Post #: 12
1/22/2011 18:11:51   
Grun Teufel
Member
 

I'll be honest, I didn't read the entire original post. However, I did read all of the comments thus far, and I have only one main qualm.

Simply lowering stat inflation wouldn't fix the problem. Wouldn't that simply be lowering the total stat standard for all builds? Theoretically, most of the same builds would be just as effective as before if the stats were reduced linearly across all classes.

Also, Focus, stat requirements, and agility may not seem necessary at first glance, but remember those were made to encourage/assist the moderate builds that didn't go to any extreme. If these were removed, I can only see things going back to the days of Alpha testing when people simply stacked every point they got into a single stat until no other stat mattered. [diamond-blade str bhs, super support mercs, super dex/energy supercharge mages].

I'm not saying that I think you are on the wrong track, but I think a lot more is needed to truly balance the game out once and for all. Skill progressions, base power levels, and even the general mindset of the average player. Lastly please keep in mind that a little variation and unfairness is what makes the game. If it's too perfectly balanced, it simply becomes rock-paper-scissors and everyone has a win % of roughly 50%. Some skills should do more than a skill of a similar type in another class, the skill progressions, what the stats require and improve on all have to be deeply thought about if things are to be set straight.

At least that's how I feel on the matter. I look forward to what you come up with next. ^_^
Epic  Post #: 13
1/22/2011 18:40:55   
Aere
Member
 

Well said, SUP. On my thread, I also mentioned how Frostbane was the jump-start that pushed ED into the power-struggle between overlords that it is now. Overlords, of course, being the players with the peak Varium rares and the money to enhance them all.

@Grun, variety would be easy to find if there was no focus. That way, there'd be no incentive to balance your stats. The saying 'less is more' can also apply to stats. If you're given less to work with, but so is everybody else, that's fair. You'd have to lean to certain stats to get certain bonuses, and every build would, and should, be beaten by another.
AQW Epic  Post #: 14
1/22/2011 19:06:00   
Sparticus
Member

I read the entire thread, I can't say I agree with it all but I do agree with:

1) Stats have become too easy to come by. They can be purchased, not earned so being a better player doesn't make you the strongest.

2) Weapons are over abundant, they provide players at higher levels an unfair advantage and they perpetuate the varium gap.

3) Allowing enhancements has made the problem worse.

I don't agree that doing away with focus, agility and cutting back on the stats currently available will make things better. Players are accustom to what they have. If you remove stat points at this point you will make players more upset, cause more trouble and perhaps drive more players out of ED. The cat is out of the bag, Pandora's box is already open. Trying to reverse things now isn't, IMHO the way to go.

I would suggest capping the total stat points per level so no one can buy their way past a fair amount. Enhance what ever you like, but your stat points can't exceed the cap. That would make it fair for non-varium players and give lower level players at least some chance. It's a simple and fair start.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 15
1/22/2011 19:59:04   
BlackStar420
Member

Here was my ideas for a solution back in beta. Remove stat modifiers from all equipment except armors. Which should only add to DEF. and RES. Then implement a PtP system where you can only own or join a faction with a monthly fee. Yes this does take things away from free players. However which system would you rather have? One where you play for free but are always left in the cold compared to your varium counter parts. Or one where you pay a reasonable monthly fee and everyone is equal and you dont have to worry about getting the next OP (more like buy or be UP till we repeat...i.e.- Next month) weapon. Also as is stated in your post, under the current system our rares are useless. I honestly think the rare leader board was AE throwing us a bone to be quite about our useless rares. Another is to not only remove stat mod's from all weapons but to make there attack value equal to the LvL Requirement. This should solve ballance issues and useless rare issues, oh but make the rares all LvL 32 as well, such as betas ect.

Edit: I remember before the enhancement system was implemented. They said we would be able to enhance our favorite weapons and still be able to use them as if they were our current lvl like in AQW. Then they ripped our hard paitence off by making the current system even worse with said enhancements. Its like there just riding the gravy train till it runs dry. :(

Edit2: Oh, and yes I bet we'd all go a YEAR without updates of any kind to see things like this happen. Id even pay say $30 US dollars a month while waiting myself. (<HINT<HINT) This is still gamma phase. So its still a testing phase. I know its already gone a while without any major changes in code. But the way its been changed although the code is basically the same, has been for the worst. Its like they took the game original code and all and made it go from totally epic to epic fail in a phase and a half. So I say completely forgo the changes since epic duel joinded AE as far as weapons go and the changes that followed. Such as agility and focus. Because for every action there is a reaction. In this case the action was AE's bad idea for getting more varium sold by making there equipment changes and the reaction was, not in the end, but so far the horrible ballance issues and there half fixes. The bad fixes are stat requirements, agility, and focus.

< Message edited by BlackStar420 -- 1/22/2011 22:27:56 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 16
1/22/2011 20:04:28   
InTheSky
Member
 

Wow, This sucks. You just wrote a 5 page report, That the staff will ignore.
Post #: 17
1/23/2011 2:49:04   
PD
Member

Feedback time!

@Grun Tearful (LOL) Tuefel:
Thanks for posting. Lowering Stat yield from weapons alone would do nothing. Removing focus and agility would make up for that. Lower damage intake, along with higher HP would make builds deal less damage. It won't be by a sever amount, but enough so that any and all unique builds would still work. Which means battles would take more time. But maybe just like a turn more. That I don't think is that much.

I don't believe perfect balance is Rock Paper siccors, but everything is Rock. All the classes would stand a fair chance against any and all classes. Mage against mage, merc against mage, and bounty against mage should equal fights, not one clearly dominating the other.

Oh, and Welcome Back. If we could set up a time to meet, that would be great. We have so much in common and to talk about, whether you know it or not. :)

@Aere:

Heh, no, I thank you Aere for helping me. And yes, you did explain frostbane's future effects to the game, which I needed.

@Sparticus:

Heh, you're right as well Sparticus. Perhaps downsizing stats right now is not such a great idea. People would quit due to that, or try to set up a resistance to counter my Deflation arguements. Making a cap for stats would be a good solution.

@BlackStar420:

I would pay the monthly fee, but I don't haz credit card for that. If there was a way to do that by upgrade card, I'd do it. :)

@InTheSky:
That's certainly a more negative way to think of it. However, I do know a few people up there whom I can tell this problem directly to. Heck, I've gotten both several mods AND AK's to acknowledge this problem. Not so ignored anymore eh?

Yes, I know the Staff will ignore it, but a problem that everyone will know of will only be dis-regarded for so long. It's only a matter of time before this problem gets serious enough that the staff will have no choice BUT to see. It's a win-win plan for me really :P

< Message edited by PD -- 1/23/2011 2:51:07 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 18
1/23/2011 10:38:04   
BlackStar420
Member

@PD: Yes id say to make it $30 dollars in varium a month. This way they dont have to think of a whole new pay system, while you could still use upgrade cards to get said varium.

@Spaticus: I really dont think stat caps will solve it at this point. Its gotten to out of hand with all there fixes already. Stat caps without any change in stat mod's wont change anything cause you will just see OP +5 focus builds with bots. You will still also have to buy the buy-or-be-UP-till-we-repeat-next-month weapons as well.
AQW Epic  Post #: 19
1/23/2011 15:33:25   
Giras Wolfe
Member

Amazing and brilliant. It is a pity so few people will actually take the time to read this. One of the deepest roots of ED's problems is that the only way they can make money off of those who are already members is release more powerful weapons. They need to release weapons of equal value and different stat boosts, not just one must have uber weapon after another. Since each weapon in this game costs roughly 5 real dollars, it should remain powerful for a very, very long time. Unfortunately, I have to agree with spartacus. Pandoras box is open and theres no way the devs will reduce the stats of existing items.

< Message edited by Giras Wolfe -- 1/23/2011 23:22:09 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 20
1/23/2011 16:07:04   
Sparticus
Member

quote:

@Spaticus: I really don't think stat caps will solve it at this point. Its gotten to out of hand with all there fixes already. Stat caps without any change in stat mod's wont change anything cause you will just see OP +5 focus builds with bots. You will still also have to buy the buy-or-be-UP-till-we-repeat-next-month weapons as well.


To the contrary, capping total stats is what I said not capping specific stats so lets clear that up first. Total stats is the exact problem we are discussing in this thread. When weapons all gave approximately the same number of stats and there were no enhancements, the only way to get more stats was to gain a level. My suggestion is nothing more then that, to give each level a stat cap. Lower levels need not even have a cap at this point. Start the cap at level 30 and make it so that you can only gain so many stat points per level so builds can't get so out of hand. This certainly will not make focus builds OPed or hurt any one class more then another. It will give lower level players a fighting chance and for players who can only enhance with credits, it gives them a fair chance also. Non-varium players could enhance with credits and gain almost the same numbers of total stats as a varium player. That is fair to all and can be scaled up as the game allows further leveling. Think of the stat inflation that is going to occur between the next 3 levels(33-35). 12 stat point just for leveling added to the already huge amount of stats you can purchase added to the potential stat flood from new higher powered weapons and armors with their own enhancements, it will just get out of hand. No, I think the total stat cap is perhaps the only answer.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 21
1/23/2011 20:01:13   
Pyronix15
Member

Heya PD, where the hell do you hang out in epci duel? Hav'nt seen you since our last meet up. =P


Sadly, I feel there is no longer a simple fix to this problem without ripping off allot of varuim players/resetting the game. To fix this problem, you'd need to eliminate/change the following things.


1)enhancement stats (cost me a good 5k varuim)

2)Nerf every single weapon in game that ever came out after frost bane (this would take weeks)

3)introduce a weapon scale and apply to old outdated weapons (lets start with that annoying blue hammer....)

4)Eliminate/adjust pretty much ever "balance" update that came out in the last six months.


To fix all of this would require a shut down of all future releases for at least a month or 2 IMO, and is something eh staff would never do, if only because that would basically destroy all the work they've put into the game recently.


The theres also the problem with varuim sales. Even if all of that is corrected, the staff will still continue stat inflation just so they can continue to make money.

IF it were up to me through. I'd hit the big reset button, and just build the game back up from there.
AQ MQ  Post #: 22
1/23/2011 20:07:34   
Wraith
Member
 

That "annoying blue hammer" is called Mjolnir for Mirv. Also, in...I think Scottish or Norwegian history it was the hammer of a god. Somewhat like Zeus and Aegis.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 23
1/23/2011 20:11:31   
Pyronix15
Member

I knwo whats it's called, it's just my spelling is fail and I didn't want to risk everyone knowing a 20 year old can't spell to save his life, so I don't use certain words when I type, such as the "thief" class in aqw, or "strength" in strength biulds. (I say attack) ^-^
AQ MQ  Post #: 24
1/23/2011 20:49:15   
sky222
Member

Amazing post, definetly worth making
BTW my input/solution is instead of redoing alot of the weps in epicduel I say raise the level cap to 40, perhaps 45, maybe even 50 if needed and raise the level of the currently available 30-32 weps and continue raising it and putting new weps in so that the SIP never happens again but ED keeps making the needed money.
The other way is to inflate the lower levels not deflate higher ones but that would take ages
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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