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EpicDuel is punishing creative players

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1/25/2011 3:03:19   

I started playing this game right when AE first bought it.
Back then, you really had a diverse number of builds people used, often with equal effectiveness.

Since that time, more and more things have been added to force people into only using a specific, very narrow range of builds, otherwise you take heavy stat penalties and will likely lose.

First, they added bonus. This was to make sure that people who had low support (very common) or in any other way had a focused stat build, did considerably less damage. Unbalanced stat builds became much less powerful.

Second, they added agility. This was to ensure people who had high-HP builds became much weaker. High-HP builds became near-impossible to use.

Third, they added *very high* passive skill requirements. Now you more or less have to go with a +4 bonus build if you're BH, otherwise you cannot use the skills which make BH the unique class, ie the passive skills like bloodlust.

Why is the ED team punishing players for creative, unique builds? Focused-stat builds already were not overpowered because they were weak in certain areas and any good player would take advantage of this. Basically what they're doing is rewarding the uncreative player by making it easy for them to pick how to build their character.

Currently my build is this:
As you can see, I have a terrible win/loss ratio, though my excuse is that most of those losses came from while I was leveling up and swapping classes. These days I sit on around 85% wins.
My build is clearly adapted around the current system to get the most possible damage while keeping a good amount of defense/resistance. I spend a lot of time working out builds in notepad before I go ingame and buy equipment, a typical build calculation looks something like this:

hp 109
mp 49

40 +22 +6 =68 -> 17-21 +4 =53-57 (32 weapon damage)
50 +31 +9 =90 -> 30-36 +0 =30-36
40 +20 +3 =63 -> 23-28 +7 =30-35
40 +0  +0 =40 -> 10-12 +4 =51-53 (37 weapon damage)

10 poison
+2  smoke
8  lust
1  reflex
10 shadow

In the above example you can see base stats, gear bonuses, enhance bonuses, stat bonuses. Total damage for primary/auxilary and defences is calculated. Robot I just do in my head since it's not the focal point of my build (in this case it does same damage as my aux anyway).

I have swapped between all 3 classes. My favourite was a very strong ~145hp strength-merc build. With the agility patch it became impossible to use for no reason other than "we want everyone to be the same".

My message to the ED staff is: if you are going to put in stats which limit a build, you should reduce the equiment requirements on high-level gear. If you want to have high equipment requirements, you should reduce the requirements on skills. If you want to have both, you should remove or reduce the agility penalty because otherwise you're funneling everyone into a very narrow selection of builds. Just to make the point, to use my equipment I have to have at minimum 40 strength, 42 dex, and 30 support. this is already putting a constraint on what type of build I can go. Skill requirements force me to have high tech (40 for poison) and support (38 for shadow arts) as well. Sure, I could make a build without them, and go smoke/massacre/emp? Bloodlust also has a tech requirement...

TL;DR: I want to be rewarded for making a good build, not punished for it with unnecessary stats which make it easier for lazy/uncreative players to compete!!

Let's just use in one area instead A Comprehensive Balance Discussion to discuss for balancing. Thanks. :) ~AVA

< Message edited by AVA -- 2/6/2011 9:11:02 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 1
1/25/2011 6:33:37   

Not quite on topic,but try using this instead of notepad,Thyleks compendium

< Message edited by Rakdos -- 1/25/2011 6:34:06 >
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 2
1/25/2011 7:02:27   

not really they should have made the skill requirments for passive much earlier rather in gamma but in beta sigh wonder y they did not do it they could have easily killed heal loopers by making an energy requirment for reroute. it be better than making agility and increase the cooldown of heal. oh well wats done is done personally i think the new requirments for the passive skill are reasonalble i do hope the make 1 for hybrid and reroute soon cause it be unfair if they dun do it and y must they target bh first i wonder y. str mercs are as bad as str bh. y target bh hmm i wonder nvm. imo the skill requirment give limits a person to certain builds. builds not build this meas that tehre are a few combos u can do. 3 focus also works ok. plus remeber u can reduce the passive to a lower lvl and have lesser stat requirments. btw i m all set if they make a tech/str/support/dex/energy/hp requirment on hybrid armor i got a build that can work. it is fun to try out and test new builds. i think that is wat the devs are trying to do. making us try new build and find intrsting builds by making the stat requirments on passive skill.

< Message edited by Luna_moonraider -- 1/25/2011 7:15:26 >


AQW Epic  Post #: 3
1/25/2011 9:17:42   

In my opinion Admins want all players to use 5 focus build which will make weps more important and ppl will buy more weps to make them strong , they dont think the fun part of this game

< Message edited by TurkishIncubus -- 1/25/2011 9:18:05 >


Epic  Post #: 4
1/25/2011 18:42:30   

no, you just need to look harder, halloween had one HECK of a nice merc build and I have come up with a LOT of different mage builds (some r not as affecive but still decent) and when I was a BH, I hardly used 5 focus because it's no fun, I got around a 50 win streak ended by an unlucky battle and the build I used wasn't high str nor was it a 5 focus BH build


{AQW} Click for full guide to the Tower of NEcromancy! Lvs 0-10!!
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 5
1/25/2011 20:05:20   
ED Prince of Shadows

*sighs* I try to stick with 4 focus. Five is just bugging be with all the uneven stats :(

Learn to evolve. There ARE creative builds out there if you're willing to take chances.

< Message edited by ED Prince of Shadows -- 1/25/2011 20:06:04 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 6
1/25/2011 20:09:29   

By taking away creativity they have taken away fun. By taking away fun loads of players have quit.


When a prince turns into a frog, he just sits around and waits for a princess to come and kiss him. When Glenn turns into a frog, he cuts a freaking mountain in half.
Epic  Post #: 7
1/25/2011 20:11:50   
ED Prince of Shadows

^ Agreed. though that's the entire threads point =/
AQW Epic  Post #: 8
1/25/2011 21:13:08   
Zean Zapple

@ED Prince of Shadows, your right there are creative builds out there! Check out my creative build by clicking the link below!


Epic  Post #: 9
1/25/2011 21:15:14   

this game is ment to be fun, not struggle with one build, be creative, who cares if you lose, if ur not on the all-time board why do you care if you lose? like for real its a game.
Post #: 10
1/25/2011 21:18:20   
Zean Zapple

@Izzy, I never knew such a positive anti-complainer player existed! Where have you been for the last 9 months of complaining!!! Welcome to the un-official alliance of Complainer-Haters

Epic  Post #: 11
1/25/2011 22:36:22   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!

I think creative might need defined some here. Putting as many points into one stat as possible can be considered creative in some people's eyes but most of the time people wouldn't say it is. Everyone has tried maxing stats of every kind at least once. It's not creativity if just about everyone else has done it. Creativity would be making an offensive Surgical Strike build instead of the usual tank version. Creative would be trying to make a Caster build. Creative would be a merc using something other than Multi in a 2vs2 build. Agility was a good idea since many players at low levels would put everything into health and outlast everyone. Focus isn't required for anything and neither is Agility. There are no weapons requiring 90 Agility and better or 4 focus and higher. You don't need to have 80 Agility to have a good build. You can have 40 Agility and make a good build(for highest damage records they're good anyways) I made a Caster build during my time as a mage and it worked quite well despite my major weakness of all energy attacks. Mages say they don't need str but I find that it's quite nice to have with energy guns and Bludgeon. The community of this game is told by a couple of great players of a class that (insert build) won't work and they just accept it. Before I changed to Mage I had many players tell me not to do it since I would lose a lot. I changed and made a Caster Mage that worked well against most builds. I've heard countless times throughout my entire time at ED that Caster mages are only good in 2vs2 or at low levels. I made a Caster build, did some 1vs1, and proved to myself that just because someone said it won't work doesn't mean that it won't work.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 12
1/25/2011 23:22:39   
Silver Sky Magician

Most people judge others by the consequences of their actions, especially if their intentions were unclear or unknown. The result of recent updates such as agility, focus and passive requirements was to make certain well-known builds (like the 5 focus bounty hunter build) seem like the only effective build, thus fueling accusations of money and creativity-sapping.

I have a different view on this. These updates were not meant to nerf any builds, but rather to discourage people from all using a certain effective build, like the STR bounty hunter or the heal loop tech mage, as this would really kill creativity and diversity. Instead of forcing people to only use one or two good builds, I think Titan's intention was to persuade people to find a build of their own and test its effectiveness instead of jumping on the bandwagon.

I might be right, and I might be wrong. But the point is that you are not being forced to do anything. You are not forced to use a certain build. You have the freedom to make your own (potentially disastrous, but with some refining it should be great) build, and opt to disregard your win-loss record, don't do what everyone else does in using a certain build, and just play the game in your own, unique way.

What these updates are effectively doing is to make people realise that they have to adapt with the game, not use the same build all the time and expect it to deliver the same results despite the changing circumstances. So I actually feel that Epicduel is encouraging creative players.
Post #: 13
1/25/2011 23:36:05   

@ND Mallet: While i agree with most of your post, you forget that different people have different standards of a "working" build. For example, if i have a build and it gets below 92ish%, then in my opinion it doesnt work, however that's because im a massive perfectionist
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 14
1/26/2011 1:41:03   

^ And also an absolute noob.

Creativity also defines a working build. If I find a very fun, gamble of a build, but it also happens to get me above 90% in wins, then hey, it's great. If the build is 98% win but it's terribly boring, it's a failure.
AQW Epic  Post #: 15
1/26/2011 1:49:38   
Shadow Jester

._. dont have to call xendran a noob.....
i had one build i was using today it had 145 Health 49 Energy
I killed str peeps but i got killed from luck with crits
Xendran u should make one build for the public lol
I agree with ND he makes werild kinds of builds ,but agility and focus might of ruined all of our minds even meh :3
Good Luck Finding a build :D
AQW Epic  Post #: 16
1/26/2011 12:04:50   

@luna :/ : if u noticed there is 1 thing everyone doing witch is changing class and changing class = $$$$$ for the admins so merces were oped everyone went merc then in 1 week bhz were like 98% wins :O W*F everyone changed class bought armors claws guns ..... then they made a small debuff and yet everyone changing to bh when they saw that everyone changed and no one buying var they debuffed them by adding requirements and as u see most of people rechanged again to mage and merc and in the next update who knows whoz gonna be oped as for ev1 having 5 focus build thats never gona happen cz they beauty of the game is fighting new builds creating a build that can be used against all builds and not facing the same char 100 times a day :/
Epic  Post #: 17
1/26/2011 14:29:16   

Creativity would be making an offensive Surgical Strike build instead of the usual tank version.

Exactly my point ND Mallet I use to use that build long ago when I was a lower leveled merc but now with these stat requirments on everything it doesnt work not even my BH masscre build will work nietheir.Its punishing creativty.
AQW Epic  Post #: 18
1/26/2011 15:08:02   

Creative is using older weapons that are deemed useless and using them to your advantage.


The Egg Staff

Outdated weapon, amazing capabilities.
AQW Epic  Post #: 19
1/26/2011 15:21:49   

It depends on how you use your build, look at JZaanu for instance she is a very creative player and is extremely good. It takes not the knowledge to create a "Creative Build", but the knowledge to use it in battle.

< Message edited by Algorithm -- 1/26/2011 15:25:15 >


Legion > Exile
Post #: 20
1/26/2011 23:13:32   

I find it entertaining how when BH got shadow arts and could successfully abuse strength and they were telling everyone to stop complaining everything is fine.

Skip ahead a little and bloodlust got a "nerf" to destroy strength builds, now it's "OMG, I hate this game...blah blah blah" You still gained a worthwhile skill to help you.

When heal loop was destroyed, what was there... Nothing. Really still is like that...

Even my hybrid frame work mage can't stand against a support/lucky strength merc or a strength BH.

As I've said before: it is easy to say everything is good when you are on top, say it when you are on the bottom, then it is credible.

A creative build is one that uses a variation of strategies, those strength BH's used only one strategy, That is not being creative, it's abusing one stat and a repetitive attack that is pathetically easy to predict most times.

< Message edited by xxXSatanic_AbyssXxx -- 1/26/2011 23:14:58 >
Post #: 21
1/28/2011 16:39:57   

These people need to work on FEATURES and not the classes.


Feel the fire burning within?
Post #: 22
1/28/2011 16:47:19   
earth breather

I didnt read it all. but i agree with the title because I have also quit ED. Havent played in like a month. Lucky im a Sc on MQ
DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 23
1/30/2011 9:53:07   

The only thing I think limits all of us is agility, it should only punish players will extreme HP like 150 hp+
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 24
1/30/2011 9:59:05   

@Tyrom Ermm... you're not allowed to request a lock on a thread you didn't start...

@Matgon So true... although really until maybe -2 or -3 it doesn't have much of an effect.
Post #: 25
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