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RE: UCaG Guide / General UCaG OOC / Welcome/Goodbye

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7/21/2012 17:45:05   
Un67
Member

I feel that the general backlash against KH was punishment enough. It is not pleasant to be on the receiving end on of such a backlash, and his general lack of experience with mafia and more important the mafia culture makes it somewhat excusable.

Kkut, on the other hand? Where to begin, where to begin. Firstly, every moderator should know that they should not interfere in the game in any way except to enforce the rules, and secondly they should also know that they should absolutely never change how the roles work because they just realized something about them. He also created a setup that was... imbalanced, to say the least, and generally not fun to play because it revolves entirely around the actions of power roles and not around discussion. I feel that this is because he has not been an active participant in UCaG mafia games and a lack of good play experience translates to a lack of moderating skills. I would prefer that kkut not moderate mafia games at all from this point on, until he has played enough and learned enough that I feel comfortable with him moderating. Actually, I feel this should extend to all inexperienced players. Only active and experienced mafia players should even consider moderating games, from this point on.

< Message edited by Un67 -- 7/21/2012 17:46:13 >
AQ DF  Post #: 351
7/21/2012 18:48:00   
kkutwar
Member

What I think is a suitable punishment is never moderating another UCaG Mafia game, and I stay away from Mafia games as an active player. There are three types of games I tend to have an aversion to: Stat-Focused Games (Needing 25 Strength to kill the guy that is easily killed in other games), Survival (I don't want to push my freakishly uncanny luck of characters never truly dying. Seriously, one fake died, one turned ghost with reviving supposed to happen, and one ensured to go demonic upon death) and Psychological-Discussion (Stuff like Mafia and Pokemon Vanished, I recall getting voted dispute not being in one and HN being disappointed that I wasn't taken instead of Zafnick. Sorry about that, I realized a little late it was Mechajin). The things all three types share in common? Having to really think things through so I don't die within the first few pages. I'm more of a casual gamer type to be honest, preferring games that I can play easily enough so I don't have any dislike of the actual game types. Just realized now but I have only ever played one game of each type: M&S 3, Snowball Fright and a Pokemon Vanished game. Also that I was asked by the person in question if I would join (at least the first two). So, yeah, zero chance of me running a Mafia game ever again.

< Message edited by kkutwar -- 7/21/2012 18:52:14 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 352
7/21/2012 19:23:33   
Dawn of Shadows
Member

Well, okay, if you want to impose that upon yourself it's fine, Kkut. That's not to say I won't make an example of you, though.

So, to top that off, I think something that people have to get a hang of is the fact that Mafia is also a responsibility, both as a player and as a moderator. I think I'll add that to the list of things I need to drone on about in the front post of the OOC.

Anyway, Un, about your idea: I think it'd be good if people played at least one game here with us before they try their hand at modding. Saying moderator should be 'experienced' is a good way to deter people, as it makes our player base much more selective and unwelcoming when it comes to who we trust. Even if they mess up, I can't say we can turn down everyone who hasn't played a lot of games; it's hard to rack up games here anyway, and everyone needs a chance sometime, mm?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 353
7/21/2012 19:49:07   
liamliam1234liam
Member

I will be gone from July 24th to August 12th, so feel free to 'ban' me from the game going on during that period. =P

I am also somewhat against stopping inexperienced players from modding. I think we should merely a.) ask more inexperienced players to make sure they have a good grasp of the game before trying to mod and b.) make sure an experienced player balances the role lists for them and gives them a crash-course in mafia modding.
Also, how do you define 'inexperienced'? I mean, Darkblade and epic pie have played quite a few mafia games, but I already prefer stealth as a player than I do them. I am not saying that to insult, it is just a fact. Probably has a lot to do with general writing.

Oh, and here is a note: you guys literally are not allowed to enforce any of this. You cannot ban people from playing, as it is exclusion. I do not think there is any harm in requesting people not play (by the way, I would have argued against that request if I was actually going to be here since there is really no justification other than that I yelled at kkut for screwing up the entire game), but actually banning them? Nope.
DF  Post #: 354
7/21/2012 20:53:46   
Dawn of Shadows
Member

Well, Liam, I don't plan to be an extremist, but put it this way: the community works because people are reasonable and people want to play together. When that falls apart, the community no longer exists. So if you'd like to go against the decision of the community (not mine, mind you) then you're basically just going to ask us to tear the game apart. So don't take this personally and see it as it is: the community here can't tolerate you breaking rules.

The reason why I suggest punishing you has nothing to do with Kkut, my issue is you decided to take it upon your own hands to begin posting even though rules clearly dictate otherwise, as you were dead. Considering you have a history with that, I don't think it's fair to act like you didn't do anything, even if you had good intentions for what you did.



on another note, Kose asked us to deal with the issue ourselves, so I'm just playing off what I think he'd like us to do... is this the wrong thing to do?

edit: as a note, I'm okay with anyone in the Mafia community participating in this discussion, no matter who you are. I think everyone has an equal word in this.

< Message edited by Dawn of Shadows -- 7/21/2012 21:23:09 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 355
7/21/2012 21:39:54   
Reaper Sigma
Member

I may have been gone for some time, but I'm going to throw my two cents in. If a game brings so much trouble and conflict, amongst its players and the UCaG community, so much that any games of the like have been suspended and people are discussing banning other players, I really don't think it should be attempted again. To be perfectly honest, the game revolves around lying, deceit, and backstabbing. In retrospect, it probably wasn't the best idea to bring this game into the forums.

On another note, I really don't know how long I'll be staying in the forums, considering my game has two players. I'll also be gone for a few days, since my internet is down.
Post #: 356
7/21/2012 21:59:22   
Selutu
Constructive


 Personally I think it would be fair of us to at least ask them to play at least 1 game with us before attempting to mod a game to show that he/she at least knows the game to a certain extent. However at the same time I would strongly suggest whoever mods the game needs to check with some other people who are not playing in the game if they have any questions regarding the game itself.

I'm not going to say much about the "punishments" as I don't think we really have a justified "right" to enforce them, however if you really want to carry on with them I would say to make it more of a request rather than punishment.

Now about what happened last game itself:
1) KH - Well dead-talking is illegal and now that you know it, there is no point in yelling at you or anything. But next time if you have any questions about if something is allowed or not regarding the game, PLEASE ask the mod or any other players that are not participating.

2) liam - Well, strictly speaking what you did wasn't really bad, but some people just might not be comfortable with you being too direct. But just a suggestion, perhaps next time calm down a bit. For example, during the game Superemo mod-quoted, although Un67 extremely disliked what has happened, he reacted to it in a much calmer and civilized manner as opposed to your over-sized font and yelling. It's not that you have to react in that way, but I'm just using that as an example as to it is possible to react calmly to such matters.

3) kkutwar - As you have decided to punish yourself, I won't really say much here.
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 357
7/21/2012 22:06:28   
Dawn of Shadows
Member

as it is, I'm really reconsidering, because I don't like trampling over people's toes nor do I want to. for now let's just say Liam you have my vote for us saying no no to what you did and don't do it again.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 358
7/21/2012 22:12:56   
liamliam1234liam
Member

Again, gone for three weeks. Will not participate in the next game, but it is not by your request.
DF  Post #: 359
7/21/2012 22:29:10   
stealthwings
Helpful


 My opinion on it:
KH has had enough punishment. In fact, I would say more than enough. It was very minor, and he was very inexperienced. I say it should warrant one, maybe 2, posts saying "That was illegal, don't do it again." Regardless, no further punishment is needed.
Kkut is punishing himself. If he was not, something serious would be needed.
Liam, I feel hasn't done much wrong. Yes, he was a bit loud, but it was warranted the first game imo. In the first game, it worked. I said "I object" and left it at that, and Super Dude did not change his judgment. Liam yelled at him, and he did. (SD, I assume you still stand by what you did?) In the second game, kkut did seriously screw up. Liam deadtalked, yes, but it only affected how the game had been screwed up, and even that it did not really affect, it did not affect the game itself. However, the game could not be fixed at that point, so it wasn't very warranted. However, I still don't see how it warrants a punishment.

In the future, I feel that the role list being reviewed should be 100% required.
DF MQ  Post #: 360
7/21/2012 22:43:43   
Un67
Member

Really, I think we're making this out to be more complicated than it needs to be. One, we need people to pay attention to the rules and get immersed into the culture. Two, we need to have experienced players moderate (I don't think we need a definition for this, we all know who the experienced/unexperienced players are). That's all that's necessary. It is best to put this fiasco behind us and give mafia a fresh start (or, perhaps, no start at all) so we can enjoy it the way it is meant to be enjoyed. The punishments, I really don't feel that they are necessary, only a more general restriction on who can mod and a more even spread of knowledge of the rules and mafia culture. You all might say that I am trying to be selective and unwelcoming, and that is true, but only for the purposes of moderating. When we are playing, I want to do everything in my power to help new players, whatever their roles may be. This is because most people can play the actual game and it will run smoothly. But most people cannot run the game and have it go smoothly. Once someone has enough experience to go by (and we will all know when that has happened, it is not exactly super opaque), then they can moderate.

As for liam, I don't think he needs to be "punished". The only bad thing that he did was disrupt the atmosphere of the game, but let's be fair, it was probably going to be disrupted anyways. I would prefer that he not do that in the future, but hey, what KH did was possibly game-changing and it was most definitely illegal by any account so such a strong reaction could possibly be warranted. It's a little in the grey, that's about as much as I'm willing to say.

< Message edited by Un67 -- 7/21/2012 22:51:27 >
AQ DF  Post #: 361
7/21/2012 22:44:10   
WA
Constructive


 I agree that role lists should be reviewed, as long as we realize that as liam said, 100% required actually means "We'd really prefer it." In theory there's nothing stopping me from cutting the line and making a Mafia game in 10 days, besides for the fact that Kose would probably kill me. I say that as a whole, we take this thread as a negative example, and nobody really needs any further punishment besides going over it and realizing that mistakes were made, and they should try to avoid them in the future. So to reiterate the lessons that we've learned:
1. Make sure your roles are balanced.
2. A moderators job is to supervise, not to intervene.
3. Dead means dead.
4. Stay calm. It's just a game.

Also, I'd like to propose a minor change to the rules. Get rid of the 'Bah' post. It's pretty much useless and can only lead to confusion.
DF MQ  Post #: 362
7/21/2012 22:54:09   
Un67
Member

^ Yes, this perfectly sums up everything about this game. Have all of my cookies.
AQ DF  Post #: 363
7/21/2012 23:14:45   
liamliam1234liam
Member

I always liked the 'Bah' post. I took it further in my game by adding wills, but that is just because I like adding an additional strategy to the game, and I do not expect everyone to copy me by any means.

< Message edited by liamliam1234liam -- 7/21/2012 23:15:15 >
DF  Post #: 364
7/21/2012 23:35:31   
Selutu
Constructive


 @WA
That's pretty much perfect I would say.
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 365
7/22/2012 4:58:47   
Kosefira
Member

quote:

1. Make sure your roles are balanced.
2. A moderators job is to supervise, not to intervene.
3. Dead means dead.
4. Stay calm. It's just a game.


Please add that as a quote to any future Mafia threads.
Post #: 366
7/22/2012 6:24:04   
liamliam1234liam
Member

To be fair, I did let Kkut get away with stuff. I am against the GM giving us any information other than what is necessary, but I did not push it when he 'confirmed' how he assigned people's roles. That final part pushed it way too far, though.
DF  Post #: 367
7/22/2012 7:30:32   
Kosefira
Member

If you disagree with someone's actions in a game and you feel you cannot respond to them respectfully, you let either me or one of my ArchKnights know.
Post #: 368
7/31/2012 2:42:11   
stealthwings
Helpful


 Shouldn't the 2-week ban on mafia be over by now?

The mafia OOC thread was locked on the 17th, it is now the 31st.
DF MQ  Post #: 369
7/31/2012 12:10:20   
WA
Constructive


 Yes, it is.

I'm bringing back Melee, with some minor changes. For those of you who don't know, it was an FSG with all the extra stuff stripped away, so the entirety of the game was a bunch of people lead armies at each other until one is dead. First thing before I make it though is a question I want to ask. Would it be better to have it as one big game with 8-10 armies all fighting in one battle, or a few entirely separate simultaneous battles between 2-3 people?
DF MQ  Post #: 370
7/31/2012 12:19:35   
Dawn of Shadows
Member

Separate, I'd think.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 371
7/31/2012 15:20:13   
Reaper Sigma
Member

8-10 armies in one battle? That's just asking for chaos. Better with two-three combatants.
Post #: 372
7/31/2012 20:40:57   
Selutu
Constructive


 @WA
2-3 would definitely be more organized. 8-10 is just going to be very hard to keep track of and chaotic as Reaper said.
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 373
8/12/2012 19:59:25   
liamliam1234liam
Member

Back. FALLEN KING.

EDIT: NONONONONONONONONONONONONO.
/facedesk /facedesk /facedesk

Gosh darn it.

< Message edited by liamliam1234liam -- 8/12/2012 20:00:22 >
DF  Post #: 374
8/13/2012 22:43:13   
steel blade
Member

Just realized the UCaG is back on its feet. I have to think for another game, not sure if Strings or Chosen II.
DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 375
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