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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread

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2/4/2012 16:59:57   
Wootz
Member

Let's see.
Personally,
My resistance is 18-22 +9 +9.
Which rounds it up to around 40.
Which means that I don't have great Tech for a great Deflection, but I can still tank.

You'll never see a CH with 110+ Tech and an Maxed PA. Never.
AQW Epic  Post #: 176
2/4/2012 17:06:11   
Stabilis
Member

I have 21 base resistance with + 9 E with +12 PA.

42 minimum resistance, also my requirements and modifiers force my base resistance to be 21.

Instead, we could use 1 or 2 passives (also removing SA) that increase Sidearm and Auxiliary damage. CH without PA are more defensive because they have no reroute, bloodlust, or frenzy to give them some courage. May as well make their ranged weapons intimidating, yes?
AQ Epic  Post #: 177
2/4/2012 17:15:48   
BlueKatz
Member

I'm surprised not seeing anyone talking about Rage

Take a look at Def/Res vs Damage
Def/Res increase every 3 Stat (just round a little) and Damage increase every 4 Stat (again, round up)

Now that mean the Def/Res:Damage will be 4:3 or 1.333333:1

So Def/Res must be reduced by 0.33 each turn to be equal with Damage

So the fact that Rage should by pass 33% if Rage is filled in 1 turn, 66% if in 2 turn and roundly 100% in 3 turn
We can consider all other factor of the stat is balanced like Block equal with Gun damage and Suppport have tons of stuff...etc

However look at ED formula
quote:

[Formula] Filled Rage Bar = 40 + (3 * Level)
Rage Points awarded to attacker based on the amount of damage reduced by the defender's defense or resistance.
Rage Points awarded to defender based on 33% of the damage recieved

At lv 34 we will have 142 Rage Bar

First take a look at Stat vs Stat (mean won't count the Bonus damage and Def from items)
STR: 62: 15-18
DEX: 62: 20-24

Notice the 4:3?
Attacker do -5 damage vs Defender (temp remove the damage cap) and gain 20 Rage
Defender gain -1.65 Rage

Then the Weapon vs Armor
At lv 34 weapon do 34 damage and Armor at max have 9
Attacker do 25 damage and gain 9 Rage
Defender gain 8.25 Rage

Total:
Attacker do 20 Damage and gain 29 Rage
Defender gain 6.6 Rage

The player will Rage at 5th Turn if both side with same Attack Defend and only Auto Attack
So let's consider 5 Turn is ED average turn

But follow the original formula the Rage should by pass Defense 133% vs Enemy at 5th Turn (after 4 Turn)
Total Rage damage: 20 + 38.57 = 58.57 Damage
However the Weapon Damage and Armor Bonus really messed the formula because the above should only apply to stat. So we must find out how much Rage worth in Weapon Vs Armor to negative it (so we can keep the average turn by 5)

Armor: 9
-> Rage Damage Bonus: 11.97

-> Real Rage damage: 58.57 - 11.97 = 46.6 Damage

So the real Rage Def Ignore = 91.724137931034482758620689655172% in 4 Turn
Round around we have 90%

Rage should ignore 90% Def/Res

However ED formula is 45% Rage Ignore, which is 1/2 of the reasonable formula.

Why do I calculate this but ignore the Weapon and Armor? Because this is aimed at Stat Balancing only. Weapon vs Armor is meant to limit the number of average turns a fight so keeping them clear is better.
It's might not be accurate in more or less than 5 turn (according my my simple math), but I guess this should work

TL;DR and conclusion:
There are also many factor force the Rage to be lower than how it should. Come across my head is Agility and Element (Def/Res) Seeking however I don't see any reason for Rage to be that low. The fact that Rage should be a lot more effective than it is now (double to be exact). I believe this is one of the main reason why Tank type builds are getting way too strong lately

My solution: Reduce Rage Requirement by half
Why I decide to reduce Rage requirement instead of double the effect?
-Well most important of all, if I double the effect (to 90%) then Glass Cannon Build (especially Support Multi Aux build) will be way too annoying because you can't counter it. If we reduce the requirement then the out come mostlikely be the same, but we will have time to effectively counter it. (so you might have chance to survive and payback)
-The shorter Rage time also mean it will be easier to time and some skill will be stronger, so I hope we can have more builds to use base around this.
-I also hear that they gonna add Rage Passive to Merc. With the current Rage system it might be kinda pointless because you just put the Skill Point just to enough to get 1 more Rage. With half Rage requirement, it might mean 1 or 2 more Rage for Merc so players will actually can decide to build 1 or 2.
-I also read from the wiki (however I don't believe it yet) that Rage will ignore Hybrid Armor. If it's true for all 3 Armor skill - which are annoyingly OP, then this Rage change will be great since you will be able to perform Rage a lot more, mean the weakness of those Armor skill will be twice bigger!
-Less crappy Rage Block
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 178
2/4/2012 17:35:15   
TurkishIncubus
Member

@Wootz

Thats your personal choise, i can do 29-35+9 def and 29-35+12 resist with 109 hp+ Max shadow arts will keep block and Malf(-30 probably) will keep you do deflect and you can do healloop with static.

But the main problem is Support become useless :S, it only increase some skills+ crit + aux dmg(which is useable in 3 turns)
Epic  Post #: 179
2/4/2012 18:33:06   
Wootz
Member

Still it is pretty powerfull. :P
AQW Epic  Post #: 180
2/4/2012 18:48:45   
rej
Member

quote:

You people seriously need to think about yourself.
The balance team did more then you have and ever will on here.
Most of the people who now complain about CHs didn't even complain how TLMs were OP'd.
Can't have a normal day on AEF; now, can I?

You seriously need to think about the balance team before you troll.
So far, the only decent idea the balance team has suggested is the Tactical Mercenary nerf. That's one decent idea out of about 15. So, 14 ideas that degrade the game vs. one that improves it. And you still defend them? Disturbing.

I would prefer to do nothing for the game rather than doing something that makes it worse, so i am proud to say that the balance team has done more for the game than me.
*Flaming ends.*
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 181
2/4/2012 19:01:51   
Wootz
Member

Oh really Rej?

Let's see, if there was no Balancing team there would still be insanely Over-Powered: Heal-looping TMs, Stun-Zerk/FC-Zerk Mercs, XTreme Strenght BHs, Xtreme Strenght/Tank TLMs...You see where this is going? (Probably towards 3 hit Super Charge *_* )

Let me see you do a better job at it. I am 100% that you will fail miserable.
And I ain't trollin', I am writing the truth. (You can call me The Truth - San Andreas quote=Fail).
AQW Epic  Post #: 182
2/4/2012 19:34:04   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

You people seriously need to think about yourself.
The balance team did more then you have and ever will on here.


@wootz
they balance team did more than we ever could on here because they haven't given anyone else a chance.
AQW Epic  Post #: 183
2/4/2012 19:34:46   
drinde
Member

For the Rage, should it have a minimum boost like Critical's +10?

I feel sorry for the low levels doing this:

Uber Tank: HAHAHAHA!
Low Level: Raaaaaaage! :D
*3 Damage*
Uber Tank: Derpy derp.

Maybe a +7 minimum?
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 184
2/4/2012 19:43:04   
Wraith
Member
 

 @Above: No, because then Jugg would be impossible.

My build is based on taking little damage while dealing average damage.

And then I lose a lot, thanks to rage which adds like 5 damage.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 185
2/4/2012 19:50:45   
drinde
Member

^
Then add a bonus to juggs, like, um, a +2 HP per turn?
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 186
2/4/2012 20:11:18   
Goony
Constructive!


 The balance team seem to have this fascination with trying to balance the game all the way from level one to the max level, yet 99% of the balance concerns are focused on max level battles... As it should be, these are the loyal players and the basis for a successful game. The players who are attempting to level are unable to use the whole skill tree until level 10 and really need to be level 25 before builds have the potential to be an issue.

The range from 25-34 is where the action is, at this stage people have gained an insight on how to play the game and this is the make or break part for newer players is at. When I 1st started I didn't buy any varium until I got to level 29 when the cap was level 30. While I have been playing some non varium alts at lower levels you would rarely see any money spent on the game.

So, personally I'd like to see some work done to rectify the cap level battle balance, it's where the money is and it would be in the interests of the game if the balance was worked on from the top down rather than the bottom up in terms of level (not current balance)

My feeling is, again without the raw data to backup my assumptions, the evolved classes are performing much better than the original classes. No-one can start with an evolved class, you have to purchase it, and this is an option for players who have progressed and are entertained by the game.

Now, I have heard the balance team say mercs will not get a regenerative skill, but the game has changed since mercs were the only class with a passive armor. Now we have a class, that has passive defence, a debuff that reduces defence (and more) as well as two regenerative skills (reroute and frenzy). On top of that a class that has passive resistance, a regenerative skill (that works twice as well as the other regen skills) a debuff that reduces resistance (and more) as well as many skills that improve with dexterity. The Bloodmage class has two unblockable str skills (fireball and deadly aim) that work in conjunction with bloodlust to create a power build that most mercs could never dream of...

When the team and devs finally realise that balance needs to be addressed at level 30-34 then maybe the game will move forward. Until then do your little tinkering and you will get rants from the players and player turnover will remain on par with newbies... You (the team) are finally getting growth, in the main due to the new features, but if you avoid level cap balance that could all fade quickly ;)

Epic  Post #: 187
2/4/2012 22:25:10   
rej
Member

quote:

Oh really Rej?

Let's see, if there was no Balancing team there would still be insanely Over-Powered: Heal-looping TMs, Stun-Zerk/FC-Zerk Mercs, XTreme Strenght BHs, Xtreme Strenght/Tank TLMs...You see where this is going? (Probably towards 3 hit Super Charge *_* )

Let me see you do a better job at it. I am 100% that you will fail miserable.
And I ain't trollin', I am writing the truth. (You can call me The Truth - San Andreas quote=Fail).


The balance team was implemented around the start of Delta Test Phase. Heal looping was cut down in Gamma. do your research before you spout meaningless nonsense.

And no, I very much doubt that i would "100% fail miserable" since I, unlike the balance team, know the meaning of the word "conservative."
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 188
2/4/2012 22:55:28   
Stabilis
Member

How to apply for balance team?

Just kidding, just kidding.
AQ Epic  Post #: 189
2/5/2012 15:05:23   
Elf Priest JZaanu
Constructive!
quote:

This topic I moved from current Design Notes to this section.


Can the match-up be by total stats system instead of levels. Sometimes balanced matches are not balanced if a player only has only a starter weapon, even at cap. If a new system was created on total stats and total skill points (level based), I think it would be more balanced. This will also aid non-varium players who are not fully equip have some ability to compete. The most important factor is partners who are balanced and not a crutch on any team.



quote:

RabbleFroth:
My initial thought was to make the max level difference between the two teams 3 or less, making the worst matchup possible 34+34 vs 34+31. This could actually apply to all level ranges, too. This approach is better, but probably still not ideal. I think there's a good, clever way to solve this, but I haven't come up with it yet.




With a stat based 2v2 system, a high level player who wants to try lower level items can compete with like-stat players. It would be interesting in the variety of match-up possibilities/choices. Also, if a player who purchased varium and was competitive then, but due to any circumstance, they were never able to update their items; they will not be punished, because they never could upgrade to current items.

I also think this could work for 1v1 as well. The balance tracker will be able to track equal stat players/classes and making adjustments will be much easier. Due to enhancements, there are 6 tiers of players (non var non enhanced, non varium partial enhanced, non varium enhanced, varium non enhanced, varium partial enhanced, and finally varium enhanced. Tracking balance issues will be extremely difficult with so many tiers.


The only negative, and could be positive too, that players will not pressured into buying varium, because they cannot compete anymore. But if they purchase varium, it is because they support this game without any competitive pressure. This would be a true test of how well this game has progressed as quality entertainment.




Stats alone would not be effective in equality of match-ups. Other additions that could be considered...
1) skill points (levels)
2) base dmg. on equip weapons


In 2v2, this is a very often played scenario we all have gone through. My partner has no true ability to compete with only 1 move.
http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab150/Jzaanu/1.png



This is the other scenario. Though looking at the screen, it would seem this would be somewhat competitive, but it is not.
http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab150/Jzaanu/5.png



Why was this not competitive? The opposing teams players have more stats per player then my partner. One player was near or fully enhanced (total stat buffs100+), and his partner had 70+ stat buffs. My partner, on the other hand, well view this photo, and you can see the dilemma with our team not able to compete.

http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab150/Jzaanu/2.png





With Stat balancing, every match will have opportunity to be competitive which means less running. And areas where running is happening, it will be likely same faction players are on opposing sides.



< Message edited by JZaanu -- 2/6/2012 0:55:34 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 190
2/5/2012 21:12:21   
Hun Kingq
Member

That with tech at 119 total resistance at 35-42 +1 or 35-42 +9 +1 the Plasma Rain rarely got above 40 due to more players high resistance with energy armors.

With Plasma Rain at max having high energy cost and low damage it is a skill that basically no Blood Mage desire to use. Because they hunter classes or merc classes think that Plasma Rain is that powerful they take your energy away out of fear. When they see that it is not that powerful then they realize it is just wasting a turn to take away energy when they get more benefit out of inflicting damage.

A new and more powerful multi skill that improves with tech and strength, a double strike Plasma Rain then Fire storm.
Epic  Post #: 191
2/5/2012 21:20:50   
Wraith
Member
 

 @Above: You suggest too much. 300% DMG is NOT gonna happen.

Neither will your BloodLust/Reroute idea.

I get killed by BloodMage more than any other class (blame insane STR then crazy raged Zerker)

Sure it needs a buff. But no, it doesn't need an OP passibe and a 300% AoE. And either way MultiShot for me tends to hit in the lower 30s so don't complain. And that was with Dex in the 150s.

Removed flaming. ~Ashari

< Message edited by Ashari -- 2/5/2012 23:37:57 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 192
2/5/2012 21:28:15   
Stabilis
Member

Blood mage is OP for not needing energy.

Bounty hunter is good as well, but they have only 1 reliable passive.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 2/5/2012 21:29:11 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 193
2/5/2012 22:23:03   
Hun Kingq
Member

Wraith, where does it say 300% damage in my post, you can't say what will happen and what won't happen because last time I checked you are not Titan. Lower 30s you must either be weak or a low level. High dex low resistance probably now shadow arts don't you know if that Blood Mage has an energy staff then you are less likely to block unless you raise you resistance.

Wraith, If read closely my multi suggestion it improves with tech and strength not either or so if they have high stength then the Plasma part will have low damage and if they have low strength they the fire portion will have low damage but to see the damage then strength and tech have to be balanced. Where it would be balanced at that would be up to Titan and for the player to figure out.

That with tech at 119 total resistance at 35-42 +1 or 35-42 +9 +1 a Hunter of either type should not get 30+ damage but they do.

So stop putting high percentage on something you know nothing about.

They tried to get the players of Blood mages to use multi by doing some kind of improvement awhile a go but how many really uses it, none because it does not do any real damage to help win the battles, that the Blood Mage has nothing to help increase the damage or the fact that it cost energy to use and the Blood Mage has now way to regain energy as the tact merc or the Cyber Hunter, that could do static charge 2 or 3 times in a 2vs2 match helping them use their multi shot 2 or more times where as the Blood Mage only has one chance to use a less powerful multi.
Epic  Post #: 194
2/5/2012 23:14:05   
rej
Member

Simple approaches to bringing CH down to the same power level as other classes:
Option 1: Alter static charge so that it functions the same way that frenzy does (Only regains energy when it connects, regains energy based on how much the attack does, rather than what your maximum damage potential is.)
Option 2: Add an extra two rounds of cool down to static charge (This would partially limit the massive abuse of this skill hopefully)
Option 3: Remove static charge all together and replace it with a version of field medic that regains energy, example:
level 1 -10 energy regain (3 round cool down)
level 2 -12 energy regain
level 3 -14 energy regain
level 4 -16 energy regain
level 5 -18 energy regain
level 6 -20 energy regain
level 7 -21 energy regain
level 8 -22 energy regain
level 9 -23 energy regain
level 10 -25 energy regain
Option 4: Replace plasma armor with energy shield.
Option 5: Replace shadow arts with an ability similar to fireball.
Option 6: Replace malfunction with intimidate.

Take your pick. :)
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 195
2/5/2012 23:20:44   
Wraith
Member
 

 @Above: Option 5.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 196
2/5/2012 23:29:30   
goldslayer1
Member

@rej
i dont see how option 5 should even be on the list.
my build uses all points to energy armor static, malf, and mass. while having some field medic a lvl 1 stun and DM.
whatever i have left (which is like 1 skill point) goes to shadow arts.
a 1% chance wouldn't make that much of a difference.

and as for option 1: if they went with that then they would have to give it a % buff since its based on damage. (like how static at max is 44% but frenzy is 57%.

and option 6:
dex CH would still dominate with huge tanking and blocking. while having a really good multi.
and being able to lower ur damage. and then, can still heal loop. and since they wont have malf, they can put points into poison for more damage output.
AQW Epic  Post #: 197
2/5/2012 23:59:50   
rej
Member

^ That's why I said "pick your favorite." :)
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 198
2/6/2012 0:49:22   
BlueKatz
Member

Man i feel sad that people don't care about my Rage change suggestion

I must say it should solve so many current problems. Nerf CH (combine with any Charge nerf), nerf TLM, nerf abuse Bot build, buff BM, possibly buff CH, no change for TM and great way to buff Merc new passive.

You should also remember that Rage used to be 75%. Idk why it took a really pointless nerf.

quote:

For the Rage, should it have a minimum boost like Critical's +10?

Actually IIRC Rage attack minimal damage is already 10, same as Crit. Is that what you mean? Because the lowest Rage hit I ever did is 10
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 199
2/6/2012 0:50:38   
drinde
Member

^
Uh, I've seen rages that did 3 DMG. ._.
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 200
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