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Should EpicDuel PvP be Controlled in Rock-Paper-Scissors Format?

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2/27/2012 11:46:20   
Stabilis
Member

If you don't already have an idea of what the title means, I'm saying that classes should be systematically advantageous or disadvantageous towards other classes. In this way, there is better management towards balancing the classes, as there is no true OP or UP status.

An example would be:

BH/CH > TM/BM > M/TLM > BH/CH... and so on.

Or

BH > TM > M > BH, CH > BM > TLM > CH... and so on. Original classes and evolved classes cannot be compared (original = evolved classes).

Comments?

Suggestions?

Questions?

Discussing ON.
AQ Epic  Post #: 1
2/27/2012 12:23:40   
vulkan
Member

thats not a bad idea, but that means it is more likely that you will lose to a certain class.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 2
2/27/2012 12:41:28   
Remorse
Member

Well I would just prefer it to be Early gamma/late beta format pre guns and aux enahments.

Back then it was startegy and smarts that won you the game and that is how I would like it.


In a sence its rock paper scisors now.

For example:
You go a ordinary balanced build (scisors) But you come across a STR TLM that starts... (rock): the battle is almost already decided.

Its too much like this in Power builds today but instead of what class you are giving the edge its whether you start or not and perosnally I hate it.

I woulndt imagine this theory being much diffrent.

But hey if it get them to actuly fix oped builds then its better then nothing :S

< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/27/2012 12:42:06 >
Epic  Post #: 3
2/27/2012 15:29:33   
  RabbleFroth
Member

The downside to R-P-S is that the outcome of a "match" is decided before the match occurs, which honestly isn't very fun to do hundreds and hundreds of times.

Plus, if a majority of the players enjoy playing (for example) Mercenary, then you could just be the class that counters them and win a large percentage of matches just because you picked the "right" class, instead of the fact that you have a better build or outplayed them.
Post #: 4
2/27/2012 15:31:28   
Oba
Member

@Rabble, not to flame you for each post but... it is already "pick the right class to win" as it is now
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 5
2/27/2012 15:38:57   
goldslayer1
Member

@rabble
what playarn said.

i have a couple of suggestions (good ones) that should in long terms, balance the game by ALOT.
AQW Epic  Post #: 6
2/27/2012 16:51:09   
  RabbleFroth
Member

quote:

...it is already "pick the right class to win" as it is now

Balance isn't quite where it should be, no, but that certainly doesn't mean we should redesign the balance to encourage that sort of play.
Post #: 7
2/27/2012 16:56:25   
Oba
Member

quote:

but that certainly doesn't mean we should redesign the balance to encourage that sort of play.


No no, not at all. And that is not what I ment, and I do not support a suggestion such as this ^^ What I ment was that the game,as it is now, is pretty much as I said, "pick the right class to win".
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 8
2/27/2012 17:04:54   
Stabilis
Member

Just my suggestion to scramble up the entire game since Balance Team won't council with me. ^,^

Scratch that.

To be honest, I'm not sure how this game is going to be balanced unless -players with real experience for the class which they are using- are the ones to advise for their current situation. This means that these players CANNOT at all have the intention whatsoever to suggest placing their class a step ahead of the others or reverse.

WE NEED A HUGE BALANCE TEAM.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 2/27/2012 18:19:26 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 9
2/27/2012 18:34:56   
rej
Member

I like it. If they could just get the game with near-class balance AND LEAVE IT THERE, then this suggestion would work wonderfully.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 10
2/28/2012 13:14:22   
Monstrocon
Member

This is a good idea. Why? ED says so themselves, "We will never achieve complete balance, but the quest for balance continues,"
Or something along those lines. If balance is impossible (which it is), a rock-paper-scissors format would be the best way to go. However I must admit that battles would be boring from a certain perspective, as you know you'd probably lose to x class and win against y class.

EDIT: RabbleFroth has expressed my opinion perfectly, and now I am more towards saying no to this. Besides, adapting is fun. It'd be boring if we had perfect balance as there is nothing new to adapt to.

< Message edited by Monstrocon -- 2/28/2012 13:17:40 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 11
2/28/2012 13:23:17   
Stabilis
Member

Another post .

If I had to say something to add to describing the situation, it would be that wins would not be guaranteed. But more so, that fighting one class will be twice as difficult, another class will be twice as easy, and players of your own class will be equal to yourself.

It doesn't solve the general imbalance of power, but it most definitely standardizes OP discoveries, ie: no ultimate class.
AQ Epic  Post #: 12
2/29/2012 3:32:42   
Remorse
Member

quote:

but that certainly doesn't mean we should redesign the balance to encourage that sort of play.


If this is the case then I think the balances tester majorly overlooked the implications of the azreal bot.

You come into battle with a STR build which has one of these bots and they start, apart from a possible luck miracle the game is alreayd decided.

I would apreciate it if more balance updates revovled around fixing this problem rather then just knowing its there and from time to time subconciously make this problem worse (azreal bot)
Epic  Post #: 13
2/29/2012 23:41:04   
Yu84
Member

Well if they do a R-P-S format, there would be a couple of flaws.

1) Right now, the classes are not even (number of people in a class), so if they decide to introduce that into the game, one class would become even MORE overpowered (since the majority of people go to the OPed class) creating an infinite loop. This means that people will keep changing classes to counter the R-P-S format (and they think they can outsmart everyone else) therefore, the "popular" class will keep on shifting.

2) Using my reason number 1 as a segway, if Epicduel becomes a game of class and not skill, people would spend credits/varium to become better than everyone else (as everyone strives to win in Epicduel.) I could see people ragequitting and flooding the forums ...

3) Using my reason number 2 as a segway, if Epicduel becomes a game of class and not skill, the overall game play experience would be lowered. This would cause Epicduel to make less money, and if Epicduel makes less money, they would not update as often (maybe less content as well), causing a bad cycle to appear. Less revenue earned --> less content updates --> less new members --> less player base --> collapse of Epicduel.

I hope you appreciate my opinion!
(Feel free to completely disagree with me :D)

~Yu84
Post #: 14
3/1/2012 0:40:50   
Remorse
Member

^ That is true,

The game is alot like that now,

But I think this problem can be reversed, I say reversed because there were times even with class change when classes were ruffly even at killing each other.

IMO, If you take away the obviously oped classes oped skill COMBINATIONS this means if you have a passive armour you should not have an energy regian nor a damage debuff (smoke/malf).
SO CHs and TLMs need either their passive armour removed (best option) or alot of there skills traded away.

This will mean that the first part of the problem is tacken care of but people will continue to switch class due to classes being more powerful killers then another and as the game progresses this will change, but unfortunately now the game is at a stage were you need extreme power to be able to defeat everyone else who are also revolved around having powerful builds.

And as long as the game is a constant contest of power the problem of classes being more dominate will never disapear.

That is why ALL classes power source for both tanking and extreme offence need to be reduced to a stage were it doesnt matter if you can be slightly powerfuler then another class but they may still be able to beat you with smart strategy and they wont be forced to reily on luck to win.

To do this something like removing gun and aux enhaments needs to happen, there is a massive stat problem occuring now and it leads to the need of nevereding balance changes via requiments stat diminished returns and so on until essintaily all the bonus from the extra stats are reversed so it makes sence to just reverse it now.

The stat problem I belive has lead to: Overpowerful classes and the need for many new wepon/skill requiments, Extreme tankers and heal loopers, Agaialty , class hopers, increased var non var gap, Worsened luck especially starting turn, major restirictions in variety and many more!


< Message edited by Remorse -- 3/1/2012 0:44:26 >
Epic  Post #: 15
3/2/2012 12:27:52   
  RabbleFroth
Member

quote:

If they could just get the game with near-class balance AND LEAVE IT THERE, then this suggestion would work wonderfully.


This is impossible unless we completely stop developing new content for the game, which I doubt is what anyone wants (And we like making new stuff!).

Balance in a Player vs Player environment will shift even if we never made balance changes. This is because people figure out how to counter successful builds, or get around counters, or new items come out, etc. Human players are very good at adapting, regardless of whether we make changes or not.

Also, think of the suggestion this way: What if Starcraft used this system? Zerg beats Protoss beats Terran beats Zerg. Do you think millions of people would play the game like they do if that was how they approached balance?
Post #: 16
3/2/2012 12:45:44   
Lord Nub
Member

^ Yes it is indeed possible to counter anything thanks to the minimum percentages on luck factors.

Is there a reason why players are unable to control their own fates with the implementation of 0% minimums?

Are the minimums the developers agreed upon way of implementing "Balance?"

Catering to players who are unable to form any strategy whatsoever and just randomly clicking things and criticalling opponents left and right at 1% or blocking at 4% isn't my idea of a "Strategic Turn Based PvP" game unfortunately.

Any plans or anything to increase the strategy element of this game Rabblefroth?
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 17
3/3/2012 11:43:34   
Ez_Ease
Member

What I dont like is the miss use of the word fair, people complain that this character is to strong and needs to be adjusted such as the (TLM & CH). In a Rock-Paper-Scissor Format, yes the outcome can be predetermined, but if you look at pokemon they use that formula but have made it interesting by the type of move sets one chooses or learns. The same can be done here. One thing I think people are missing is that life is fair, but some how we want to punish someone for being bigger, faster, stronger or richer if they acquired any of those asset honestly I dont have a problem. There will always be people who cheat and abuse the system get use to it, example why do people who drive buy a radar detectors it is because one they dont want a ticket for doing something wrong like driving to fast. I have beaten people who cheated in everything I've done in life, is it easy no, is achievable yes, but only after some time and effort. I believe that there should be clear advantages but also I believe in the human mind, that we are able to adapt and over come any obstacle when faced with a problem.

When I started my TLM had technician, and smoke screen which I thought was cool, which I used appropiately based on a person build. if you had high defense I smoked you then attack. Just as if I saw that you was loaded up with energy I could first swicth my defense cant now stuck on physical and yes that does mean I can pour more into technology or buy armor, but I prefer to be balance and use my mind on what I need to do in a given situation, everytime I fight a particular build and if they beat me I learn to adjust my thought process on how I will proceed. Now I am penalize for looking at the other character and if they had a super strong energy build and is completely energy I would shift my shield and usually that meant asorbing a blow then heal and make
them pay for relying on one style of fighting. Sorry for the long rant but I am tired of someone saying no heal, it is in the game, let me use this picture I have my hands around your neck and I am choking you you have two choices let me kill you or do what you can to survive. If the heal is in the game I will use it, if not then I dont have that option, but some of the in game boss are very hard to beat so you need to heal. Enough of the no heal already especially when you are first to say it then heal yourself when the battle takes an unexpected turn. Taking away points from defense or moves is not a good move raise the other guys ability is a better option than pulling someone down, you dont multiply wealth by dividing it. That means you take from some one who has worked hard for it, to give to some who has not; now you tell me how is that fair, because where is the incentive for me to continue to work if some says woe is me I dont want to take the time think for myself, so if you have disposable income to buy varium people want to say you are cheating or a freak. :-) That is all I have for now. Have a great day and weekend.
Epic  Post #: 18
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