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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread

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3/15/2012 18:03:56   
Elf Priest JZaanu
Constructive!


 Though technically not a pvp balance issue, it is a game and community balance.

For players who did achieve on entering this board, a special achievement should be awarded.

About people feeling taken advantage of due to their hard work in being and maintaining their position on this board, other then status, there nothing awarded to their faction, or themselves. It is a goal to achieve with no prize. Unless those individuals plan on obtaining 150-250+ victors daily for their remaining playing careers, they will be eventually slowly dropping down in the order, and finally, not even on the board at all.

As suggested, having a special top 15 achievement for being on the phase once is concludes, and maybe an extra bonus for the player who is the top person either daily and the final standing.


Likely another battle record would be created. Phase mode record, and to make it very competitive, no npcs either. Strictly battle-mode victors. What will happen, the inflated totals and ratio of 1v1 due to npcs will decline into the 65-75% victor ratio. With Juggernaut and 2v2, those battle modes will also be recognized as well.

Sounds exciting and very balanced to me. Pick your mode and get those achievements for phase champions.

Uniquely enough, this topic of eliminating the board was mentioned and discussed on the old forums. At the time, the game was so new and the debate for it was not strong enough. The time has seemed to have arrived, and only good competition can come from this.

< Message edited by JZaanu -- 3/15/2012 18:11:53 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 26
3/15/2012 19:27:21   
PivotalDisorder
Member

@Jzaanu: love the idea of removing NPC wins from the Leaderboard count, although I think they should still give XP and credits to aid levelling.

it is about time the community got some features that favour both the old timers AND new players.
Post #: 27
3/15/2012 19:30:53   
Stabilis
Member

My Official Balance Discussion

Trans' Official Balance Discussion

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 3/15/2012 19:39:22 >

_____________________________
AQ Epic  Post #: 28
3/15/2012 19:51:47   
Mr. Black OP
Member

Lower then minimum block chance to 1%. (Why should someone with 0 or negative DEX block?)
Make 3 dexterity increase your block chance by 1% instead of 2. (nerfs high dexterity builds a bit)
Also do not allow SA to go over the maximum block chance, the celtic weapons do not let the block chance go below 4% after all.
Epic  Post #: 29
3/15/2012 20:01:59   
PivotalDisorder
Member

players have a base chance to block because no matter how agile you are compared to your opponent, they still stand a chance of blocking an attack.

not all real world physics work ingame but in this case it does make sense that we at least have a small chance to block, crit, deflect etc.
Post #: 30
3/15/2012 20:07:21   
rayniedays56
Member

Dexerity builds are the only ways to counter a huge Strength build. You want the strengths to be more vistorious than they ALREADY are?

For balance, how about the devs tweek the BM's skill tree a bit. They have WAY to many strength moves.

Examples include:

Fireball
Bloodlust
Berzerker
Deadly Aim

How many dex skills are there?

Super Charge
Overload

Technology Skills?

Plasma Cannon
Plasma Rain

Support?

Energy Shield
Intimidate
Reflex Boost

Don't get me wrong, it's a POTENTIAL nice skill tree...if there wasn't the tiny issue of how much a strength build could do...

You are looking at FOUR ways that the BM wins nearly every battle.


You manage to crit a 30 on them...they rage firball, gaining back 20

You hit 25, they use berzerker, gaining back about 12-17

You manage to rage a big move (40-50)

They hit use their gun, which would be about 22-27+34+(10) which is 22-27+44...66 damage on the low end...decent dex gives 21-26 def...that gives nearly 40 damage, and gains 10 health back...

See the results?

NOTE*** Bloodmages Do NOT need a nerf! They just need a little tweaking on their Skill Tree

To me, they are very UP because they only have ONE good build to go by.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 31
3/15/2012 20:35:10   
Elf Priest JZaanu
Constructive!
quote:

@Jzaanu: love the idea of removing NPC wins from the Leaderboard count, although I think they should still give XP and credits to aid levelling.

it is about time the community got some features that favour both the old timers AND new players.


Only for the Phase pvp play, npcs should not count in regard to win totals.

For personal record
yes

For faction competition
yes

For experience and credits
yes

tokens
yes


On a side note, not all players will be able to compete in such a demanding competition, so maybe the top 15 players will get a community badge for the phase for their efforts in being a positive role model and promoting the game. Since we have social networks to increase our demographics, players who invest their time in helping, promoting and being an example should also be rewarded too. This would be determined by staff and AKs.

Epic Duel is doing some amazing things in their development, we are the best representation of it.

Being recognized for pvp dedication, and recognition for exemplary community service. Balance.

AQW Epic  Post #: 32
3/16/2012 3:17:18   
Archlord Raistlin
Member
 

 Can someone explain why my wraith revolver has a deflect rate of about 60-70%? For one of the best guns in the
game, this is pathetic. It's even worse on rage... The guy could have 18 defense and 24 tech and it deflects...over
and over again.

How is this even possible? As my only physical weapon, it's important on many occasions, yet I can't stand using it.

Can moving deflect to technology really make that much of a difference? My aux does not deflect nearly as much.
Or is the weap just a piece of ??? I would assume energy aux and phys gun would have the same chance of being
deflected, not one twice as much as the other. What is going on?

As for all-time boards...how could you even consider complaining it away? It's like saying I don't make as much
money as you, it will take a long time for me to make that much, so to be fair you should make the same as I do...

Awesome entitlement life lesson...




Post #: 33
3/16/2012 3:57:39   
Elf Priest JZaanu
Constructive!


 Archlord, the analogy you given is not correct with the information and thoughts I have supplied.

But since you are on the Leaderboard for 2v2, what have you gained from it aside from being noted as a highly active player.

If you ever lessen your activity in this game, and your position drops from the board where your name is not even part of the top 15, would you like to be remembered for your efforts during your peak activity?

The Leaderboard is a reflective example what challenges this game has. By making it within phases, everyone has an opportunity, and all players who have achieved top 15 when the phase ends will be immortalized.

Archlord, you and along with many others will one day not be on those boards, that will eventually happen as it has happened in the past.

These boards need to be revamped and be part of the community. As of now, it only signifies effort and status.

AQW Epic  Post #: 34
3/16/2012 4:16:17   
comicalbike
Member

Jzaanu thankyou for your post i have been thinking about that for a very long time all we have is a name and we never get an achievement .a player said to me yesterday congratulations for getting 200,000 and does it feel good,
i said no i get nothing for it at all so why should i feel good about it,the leader-board is pointless really as all 15 of us get nothing at all, so what you say is correct, so the question is really why should i Cary on playing .the answer is the game is in development , can i wait that long ,i don't
know, but thank-you for putting my name in your post, and thank-you for having me in your faction in the early days it was good.please dont delete this post.


_____________________________
Epic  Post #: 35
3/16/2012 8:37:41   
Shadronica
Member

In actual fact I do remember the dev's mentioning the exact same thing you are saying Jzaanu. Proper and due acknowledgement was supposed to be awarded to anyone who had made it on the all time leaderboard. They were going to implement that right after I had decided to retire my alt Shadist from the 2v2 all time leader board. So yes that idea was left behind in the old EDF.

I would dearly love to have something to show for the fact that I spent 6 months slogging it out in 2v2 to maintain my position on the all time leaderboard. As I was running two factions and had my founder and 2 other alts I felt that remaining on the leaderboard had little to offer me apart from a tiny piece of prestige that usually only made the other players want to beat the heck out of me by fair means or foul. Considering also that my win ratio was only second to FJ at that time.

I think Archie missed the point you were trying to make there Jzaanu. We definately would not wish to wipe out the leaderboards but just acknoweledge the players who have dedicated a great deal of time and effort to make it on there.

Thank you comicalbike for a very honest post and thank you for your dedication to give players a goal to achieve (both you and Fay Bee). I remember you when you first started and you had to fight your way onto the all time leaderboard too.

Yes it would be nice to have some token of achievement.

Congratz comical.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 36
3/16/2012 9:06:50   
Zeoth
Member

You all have some very good points about the the all-time leader board.
Sure it takes hard work to get up there but what do u get in return? Jack didily squat.
There needs to be some real recOnigition. I also agree with phase leader boards. A testament to the hard
Working new phase players.
Post #: 37
3/16/2012 10:12:34   
PivotalDisorder
Member

Phase leaderboard would still allow players like ComicalBiker to dominate, but he would also be rewarded for his position at the end of the phase.
as well as being universally recognised as the most actively successful 1v1 player of all time.
Post #: 38
3/16/2012 13:42:58   
Archlord Raistlin
Member
 

 @Jzaanu

Your thoughts and intent were not solely the reason for my reply. It sounds like a good idea to add a new
phased board, one which gives every new player an equal chance to make an impact. To me, the leaderboard
is a "living" achievement, and yes i enjoy the endless chase against Hope, Morrigan and Miraged... sure, one
day I will not be on the board at all, which is part of life, but for now it provides me and every other player a
target to shoot for. Why is that anti-community? It's one aspect of the game, not some huge disincentive...
There are many players on the brink of getting on the board and that's frustrating and fun at the same time.

I also remember how gamal would never talk, holocost was and still is a "win at all costs" player, how vegitix
manipulated the game to the detriment of everyone and buffy bought her way to faction dominance... these
are all good stories, part of the history of the game, maybe heresay, and I'm sure could be debated endlessly.
I don't think anyone on the all-time expects a lifetime achievement award and if someone remembers us in the
future for good or bad...eh, it's probably all good in either case.
Post #: 39
3/16/2012 14:06:40   
Stabilis
Member

It looks like the chatter turned from balance to history + leaderboards. If it helps I will save all of your comments and append them to a new thread.
AQ Epic  Post #: 40
3/16/2012 15:19:49   
Elf Priest JZaanu
Constructive!


 Archlord, ty much for your honest reply. It aided me in thinking about exactly what is missing.

Reading your post, and adding more thought, you are very correct the All-time board should not be removed. What the all-time board represents it is the longevity of players in this game. The most passionate players who love this game will be on that list directly by making a strong effort, or passively by consistent play. When we view other events of competitive nature, they all have some type of All-time list. That being said, this All-time should be expanded to top 100.

We have daily events, and so what is missing?

In the previous posts, we discussed about phase, referring to, game phases. The only difficulty with this is, when does it end, and when does it begin. It is extremely difficult to plan and coordinate an honest effort when the basis of phases is the game development, and not competitive.

To improve upon the phase element, the game is only missing seasonal. Epic Duel, in terms with events, and within the story-line, there are seasons. If the game created an actual calendar and real official seasons like summer, spring, fall, and winter, these could become 4 competitive seasons. Why 4? Due to players schedules, some have outside responsibilities, and these players could coordinate their effort better when they are definitive established times. By doing this as well, everyone can participate from level 1 to cap. The past has no correlation on seasonal competing, nor is there any future responsibility in competing once the seasonal event has been completed. The top 15 would get a special achievement like 2012 spring top 15 achievement or 2012 Spring Champion for the top placing player. By having the seasonal competitive mode, it will bridge the gap that daily and all-time has left.

If we added certain criteria like...

1) No NPCS
2) No Class Change. If they do, their the current seasonal victors will be reset to 0.

This will aid in better balance for the game without players compromising balance by seeking loop hole builds in the middle of competition.


Players who only enjoy and play for All-time, just let them play as they wish.


I appreciate all the responses and ideas on this community balance sub-topic.



< Message edited by JZaanu -- 3/16/2012 15:31:28 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 41
3/16/2012 15:21:51   
Stabilis
Member

^

I will add your post to this thread.
AQ Epic  Post #: 42
3/16/2012 16:30:05   
Ashari
Inconceivable!


 Thank you for making that thread, Depressed Void. I'll have to ask everyone to continue your discussion of leaderboards in the Discussing the All-Time Leaderboard, and possibility for Phase Leaderboards thread since seasonal leaderboards as a feature isn't really a balance issue.

I'll be removing the off-topic posts in this thread, since it looks like Depressed has already quoted them in the other thread. Let's get back to the topic of class balance please. :)
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 43
3/17/2012 18:44:18   
Shadronica
Member

I have seen Jzaanu post many times regarding the liberal use of class change upsetting balance.

I agree that this feature has made it far too easy to just hop to the latest OP class with its OP build.

I would like to see a restriction in place as to how many times per year you can class change. Perhaps twice a year would be good because it would make players think long and hard before they just jump to another class.

If we could limit the amount of people changing classes all the time we would start to see more players coming up with innovative ideas/builds to counteract a lot of the problems we have all encountered. Then you would actually get a good overall picture of which classes truly needed a buff or nerf.

I would think it would be distasteful to simply put the cost of class change up as it would not only be a short term quick fix but would again just cater to the already bloated elitist attitude that has been cultivated in this game.


I am not sure how easy or difficult this would be to implement but I really do feel that we currently have an environment where it is easier to class change to an easy class than to use our brains to be creative.



< Message edited by Shadronica -- 3/17/2012 18:53:41 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 44
3/17/2012 23:31:24   
Mr. Black OP
Member

If a person goes first their initial attack shouldn't be able to be a critical, I have started the game with more then half my health gone on my first turn because of this on many occasions.
You also can't block or deflect if the attack was guaranteed to kill you, by this I mean even if the attack was to take the lowest damage from the attacker's range and the highest defense from the defender's range and would still kill then it can't be blocked or deflected.
Any opinions?

< Message edited by zman 2 -- 3/18/2012 0:32:25 >
Epic  Post #: 45
3/17/2012 23:57:04   
drinde
Member

Strike Theory:

The constant 100% DMG supports STR Abuse, especially without any penalties.

Revamp Idea:

Strike 1st used does 100% DMG. Then if used again (Without regard to any turns Strike was NOT used), it does 80% DMG, then 60% DMG. Strikes will do 60% DMG for the rest of the battle.

THIS CANNOT BE REDUCED BY BOT SPECIALS!
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 46
3/17/2012 23:59:22   
Mr. Black OP
Member

^
What happens if someone uses EMP followed by yeti? the person would have weak attacks and can't use any skills cause of the EMP.
Also, some low levels only have strike.

< Message edited by zman 2 -- 3/18/2012 1:41:53 >
Epic  Post #: 47
3/18/2012 0:01:07   
drinde
Member

^
Urm. Robot?

How about it would scale like this:

100%, 65%, 100%, 65% and so on....
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 48
3/18/2012 1:39:48   
Elf Priest JZaanu
Constructive!


 Shadronica, it is a cycle we have seen continually since Class Change was established.

There will be players who wish to Class Change for enjoyment and new experience, it would be great for them to have that option.

Yet, there is a strong demographic of players who class-change for advantage, and this should not be an option for them. This alone, it throws so many problems over and over with balance.

Shad, I do hope something will be done. One of the best elements in competitive games is the ability to problem solve.

< Message edited by JZaanu -- 3/18/2012 1:40:11 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 49
3/18/2012 3:49:10   
Shadronica
Member

Jzaanu when I wanted to experience class change for enjoyment I simply made an alt or two or three. It wouldn't harm a lot of people to have to fight their way up from scratch to experience a new class. Personally I found it challenging and most pleasurable. It gives an individual a whole new perspective on the game as well. Rather than just swinging from easy class to easy class.

A class change once every six months would be acceptable. You couldn't possibly entertain giving players a twice a year option because they would use them up in the first week then be unhappy that they couldn't change again for a whole year. Or even at worse a class change once every four months. But this whole thing really needs to have a plug put in it.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 50
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