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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread

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3/23/2012 11:26:06   
Remorse
Member

^ Exactly,


Power builds are the problem ND, you saying that asimilation will let blood mages be ABLE to counter power builds.... THAT IS GREAT, it means blood mages will finaly be able to use OTHER then STR spamming.


AND,

It lessons the major powerbuild option and that is STR Blood mage.


Power builds are a problem because builds shouldnt be able to win so easy just because they were in the right starting position.

Epic  Post #: 126
3/23/2012 13:36:48   
Stabilis
Member

Reserved!!!
AQ Epic  Post #: 127
3/23/2012 13:56:01   
Leprechaun
Member

^
R u reserving a spot? :D
Post #: 128
3/23/2012 14:17:38   
Oba
Member

So, what do you people think the new Merc passive-rage skill will be? I for one hope you will get some % back of the dmg dealt with rage in energy. Would solve lack of ability to regain energy for mercs.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 129
3/23/2012 15:17:47   
Ranloth
Banned


 I said about Zerker -> Assimilation in DNs thread so simply put:
  • Solves power-build issuse
  • Gives much more choices for BMs - variety = good
  • Pleases the players - Energy drain + strategical value

    @Oba
    I'd say perhaps bigger drain of Rage from SS + some of it goes to you, or some kind of passive boost to Rage after it's used or something! xD But yours is quite interesting, would love to see if that's right as I could change my build a little again and make it more interesting. c:
    • AQ Epic  Post #: 130
    3/23/2012 17:40:33   
    ND Mallet
    Legendary AK!!!


    		 @remorse I think you're missing my point. My POWER MAGE, uses Assimilation and can beat a POWER BM. There is no incentive to not use strength with Assimilation because guess what? I can hit you for 30+ and steal up to 12 energy for free. Swapping the skills isn't changing anything besides a small nerf to Strength builds but one could argue that would give even more power over other strength builds. So it doesn't destroy them, merely allows them to play a different strategy that is also as scary. Hitting for big damage and removing energy for healing and shielding later on in the fight. Without Berzerker I could use default energy and put all those points into more strength instead of trying to get enough for Zerk and Fireball now.
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 131
    3/24/2012 0:56:58   
    drinde
    Member

    		First blood should not draw Rage.

    I meant that as in when you start the battle, your first hit doesn't add to the Rage Bar.

    This would lessen 1st Turn's power.
    DF MQ Epic  Post #: 132
    3/24/2012 0:58:55   
    Mr. Black OP
    Member

    		^
    I like the idea, another thing is that the first attack shouldn't be able to crit, even if it is a BB or cheapshot.

    I think TMs plasma bolt should get 1 more turn of cool down, they are even worse then BMs strength builds.
    Beserker shouldn't be able to crit.

    < Message edited by zman 2 -- 3/24/2012 1:27:51 >
    Epic  Post #: 133
    3/24/2012 2:46:33   
    Remorse
    Member

    		@ ND,

    You forget that by giving BMs assimilation for beserker, then the blood mage skill tree is then givin the abailty to beat powerbuilds WITHOUT being a powerbuilds themsleves.


    So the STR BM wont necesarily be effected that much (your right to a point here) though without beserk as an option they become a fair bit easyer to counter as you know you get a space of a 2 turn cool down between fireballs rather then knowing hat there is no gap in extreme powerful attacks if the need to use as much power as possible.


    AND if Blood mages are given the abailty to beat there own STR builds then the STR builds will hopefully become less popular and Blood mages wont unfairly be limited to powerbuilds.

    I think its extremely unfair that blood mages are limited to powerbuilds considering the have potential with good sheilds and intimidate to do other startegies BUT that is stopped in its tracks because they are the ONLY class without a energy drain of some sort.


    This change isnt to just fix powerbuilds its to give Blood mages more options OTHER then Powerbuilds.

    ANd you also said that asimilate will make it easy for powerbuilds to counter powerbuilds THIS is also good because it means that powerbuild win ratio would hopfully lower and then become less popular.



    < Message edited by Remorse -- 3/24/2012 2:50:03 >
    Epic  Post #: 134
    3/24/2012 10:25:23   
    Oba
    Member

    		Cant say that this new skill for mercs was much of a buff. It is still rather weak.
    AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 135
    3/24/2012 12:03:56   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 I feel like it should be shared with everyone as it's an important issue and I managed to get hold of Practel on IRC. :P

    quote:

    [14:12:41] <Practel> Like Ashari said, dimnishing on stats is going to come
    [14:15:01] <Practel> Believe me, we all saw the Caster build in a video
    [14:15:07] <Practel> We don't like the unfairness it gives


    So basically power builds will come to an end, Caster TMs as well which are common issue and I do find them difficult myself with a good build so it's matter of time. That also means Str-abusing will be coming to an end slowly as they will have less damage and perhaps some restrictions will be put on skills: example of Plasma Bolt not being useable on 1st turn if you start, etc. But this is just speculations so I do not know myself. Issues are known by Devs and change will be happening soon to stop all of them at once rather than separately, isn't that great? ;D

    Changes to Rage - there you have explained how Rage works now which is definitely different to what Remorse has made an issue on as before, as Remorse has said, it wasn't even useful as powerbuilds abused it. It might still favour them slightly, but as dimnishing on stats will be here it shouldn't be an issue.

    ED is definitely heading in right direction as they are making major changes to stop things like powerbuilds, balancing classes - CHs will meet their (balanced) end, and so on. But also keep pushing it forward as we had already few of the major changes and we're looking for few others which are in works. :)
    AQ Epic  Post #: 136
    3/24/2012 12:32:33   
    Rui..
    Banned


    		 diminishing stat is not the solution cause the problem is totally not there.
    The main issue is skill not having a requirement.
    All skills to have a heavy requirement.
    Plasma bolt and cannon need 50 support at max level.
    Bunk and fire ball need 50 dex at max
    all duel hitting skill need 50 tech at max level.
    Second issue is weapon requirements.
    All level 30 plus items need to have a uniform base requirement.
    Lastly the bonus from weapons need to be scaled equally like the wraith items. This way power build abusers will not end up defeating other players.

    1. Price you pay for lousy net
    2. 50 is just a hypothical number. They could make a pivot on the top 20 abuseers every week and see if it makes a difference
    3. Yes i am a bit evil at times

    Posts merged, please use the edit button instead of double posting. ~Illuminator

    < Message edited by Illuminator -- 3/24/2012 23:10:15 >
    Post #: 137
    3/24/2012 12:45:29   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 Dimnishing is a not a solution because..? It gives you less power the more you abuse the stat? Surely that's a good thing, unless you like Caster TMs annihilating you infairly.
    Requirements are also bad way to solve issues. You're further forcing people to have Focus 5 build to get most out of it and pick requirements that completely make no sense and might not change anything. If you put Support for Bolt + Cannon then you're forcing everyone to use one build. Pretty much same with other skills. Restrictions are good but having requirements on every single skill is a no, I like my build as I invest more in Support while maintainging Tank values (Focus 2 only). I don't want Focus 5 as it's boring..

    Weapon requirements - they are good as they are. There's variety of items for a reason so you can fit them for your build simply or if you want a weapon badly then adjust your build to it if you cannot afford another weapon but want to change builds. And bonus scaled equally enforces 0% creativity and Focus 5 again, what's the point in that one?
    Lastly you mention power builds, well stat dimnishing is taking care of that.. ¬.¬ And weapons usually give 2 stats (good) and 3rd stat (poor) like +10 Dex, +8 Str and +4 Str. There are few occassions where they go for one stat which is one of non-Varium weapons at Lvl 34 which focuses a bit more on Str and Dex.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 138
    3/24/2012 12:48:04   
    Stabilis
    Member

    		If diminishing becomes a key feature in PvP, then we will surely have to split Focus from Strength, Dexterity, Technology, and Support because it becomes obvious that investing a stat point slowly becomes troublesome, whereas the points needed for Focus are not affected because Focus never has one type of stat in the extremes.

    Surely players will flock to Focus especially if they are simple class hoppers, and eventually Robot problems will arise as a balance issue. Please make Focus it's own stat.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 139
    3/24/2012 12:57:25   
    AQWPlayer
    Member

    		I just tried that "Adrenaline" skill on my merc alt and guess what? It's a joke really...it should be increased by at LEAST 10% or 20% IMO
    AQW  Post #: 140
    3/24/2012 13:10:53   
    Rui..
    Banned


    		 trans you have again failed to understand. When they diminish stats players will start evening out stats to get the most out of points invested making way for more focus builds.
    Adding heavy requirements to skills and weapons will reduce the abusers from spamming a single stat.

    So if you want to use plasma cannon you will have to add 50 to support. Thus restricting you from abusing a single stat.I hope you understand now.

    As for your second part. Yes weapons can have stats like 10,8,4 but their requirement needs to be changed to 30 strength dex tech and support. Or whatever. And the items that give even stats should have uneven requirement.


    < Message edited by Rui.. -- 3/24/2012 13:14:35 >
    Post #: 141
    3/24/2012 13:13:20   
    ND Mallet
    Legendary AK!!!


    		 @aqw It wasn't meant as a fix for low levels, it was meant as a fix for high levels. On average, the skill will get you rage 1 turn faster and then 2 turns faster and so on. Tanks would get the most from the skill because they rage faster as the battle goes on longer. Add in Surgical Strike to further delay the enemy rage and you've got a good build
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 142
    3/24/2012 14:00:16   
    Wraith
    Member
     

    		 @ND: AQW's alts are typically cap level, other than eloy 2006. With space.

    And anyways, tbh, it's not enough. I mean, Bunker hurts but...

    _____________________________
    AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 143
    3/24/2012 14:01:05   
    PivotalDisorder
    Member

    		I like the idea of higher requirements, 5 focus shouldn't have every ability at their disposal as well as strong strike, gun, aux and robot.

    quote:

    Plasma bolt and cannon need 50 support at max level.
    Bunk and fire ball need 50 dex at max
    all duel hitting skill need 50 tech at max level.

    probably not these exactly, but this is on the right track IMO.

    < Message edited by PivotalDisorder -- 3/24/2012 14:02:06 >
    Post #: 144
    3/24/2012 15:22:19   
    Stabilis
    Member

    		How far would you go with stat requirements? All the way? Or do you have your own personal limits?
    AQ Epic  Post #: 145
    3/24/2012 17:27:52   
    Wootz
    Member

    		Supermasivo,
    only thing that you have shown is that you are an immature chield. Thats all.

    quote:

    Plasma bolt and cannon need 50 support at max level.
    Bunk and fire ball need 50 dex at max
    all duel hitting skill need 50 tech at max level.


    So, lets see. Instead of 5 focus that many players would turn to.
    Strenght Bounty Hunter, Massacre, Strike, Smoke Screen, "all dueling skills" that is would require 50 Technology to use, 'cause seriously. Why not have a boat load of Technology which would increase that debuff meaning a more powerfull damage with Massacre, higher Health regain and better resistance. The Cyber Hunter and the Tech Mage class could never beat it then, atleast everyone would buy Charfades Claws. :P
    Strenght Cyber Hunter, same thing as the Bounty Hunter, only even more technologically advances because of the Plasma Armor.
    Tank Tactical Mercenaries, they'd benefit for everything. As there would really be an loophole in the Hunters, which is Physical damage, 'cause the class would have to use all points into Technology and won't leave any for Dexterity, so pretty much. The killer.
    Blood Mage, all killer no filler. Energy Primary, Physical Gun along with Deadly Aim, Fireball and Berserker, you'd literally force them into a focus build with excesive Strenght and low Health, which would totaly destroy everything as it can cover both defenses.
    Mercenary, probably the most weakest class then.
    Tech Mage, are very weak. Without any skills that would benefit from it except Support Abusing, and maybe Super Charge abuse which would fail againts Hunters, because you'd force them into 50 Technology minimum. Againts the other classes. Most likely pure luck.

    Edited out some things, please use better word choice next time. ~Practel
    Please don't use pink. Its killing me. Thanks!

    < Message edited by Wootz -- 3/26/2012 12:39:07 >
    AQW Epic  Post #: 146
    3/24/2012 23:29:20   
    drekon
    Retired ED Guest Artist


    		 Plasma Bolt and Plasma Rain seriously needs stat requirements. Also, please do something about these Supercharge Tech Mages.
    Epic  Post #: 147
    3/24/2012 23:35:43   
    Luna_moonraider
    Member

    		plasma rain does not need any stat requirements but plasma bolt and plasma cannon do. str requirement or dex requirement would do the trick. mages are so strong at low lvls i basically can use a 2 hit ko build in 1v1 which 2 hits almost every1 i meet. if not it takes round 3-4 turns to beat them. now that is a problem i guess low lvl activity is not detected by the balance tracker.

    < Message edited by Luna_moonraider -- 3/24/2012 23:45:33 >

    _____________________________
    AQW Epic  Post #: 148
    3/24/2012 23:55:39   
    Stabilis
    Member

    		Stat requirements are not needed...

    All you need to do is make such skills diminish the more stat points there are.

    Eventually we should remove the "stats improving skills" behaviour.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 149
    3/25/2012 1:02:25   
    drinde
    Member

    		Technically, to stop Power builds, we could just reduce 6 from all primary weapons. Theoretically.
    DF MQ Epic  Post #: 150
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