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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread

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4/15/2012 12:56:14   
khalidon5000
Member

Then plasma rain multi needs to be strengthened. People have a problem with strength Blood mages not dexterity blood mages or tech blood mages.
I agree that plasma rain needs to be strengthened but mercenaries still lose to other classes. Yes the multis are unbalanced but what happened with you happened because of OP Caster tech mages. So basically you got caught in crossfire for the battle of balance...Therefore mercenaries aren't strong and needs a buff and we need to figure out what to do with dexterity blood mages.
Epic  Post #: 51
4/15/2012 13:19:57   
essenceend
Member

If youant it to be TLm it could be tlm, But the merc's need to have skill's that are a little toned down. *cough*artillery strike*cough*

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Epic  Post #: 52
4/15/2012 14:40:17   
ScarletReaper
Member

Anyone else think it's stupid that supercharge improves with tech now? So now a tech abuse mage instead of plasmabolt plasma rain, can go plasma bolt, let reroute give my energy back a few rounds... Supercharge!! how is that better?

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DF AQW Epic  Post #: 53
4/15/2012 14:56:18   
Hun Kingq
Member

Only one type of nerf that should happen is EMP and Atom smasher, since both could take away large amounts of energy be limited to one use per match and in 2vs2 and 2vs1 no two energy draining skills can be used on the same person. Since the bounty Hunter Class and the Blood Mage has no viable energy regain and that the Blood Mage has no type of energy drain and will never get one as it was made clear in a round about way by staff.

The Skill Guardian would be a great benefit to the Dex Blood Mage since we are hit not only with energy attacks, weapons and skills but also physical attacks and it is quite clear that Reflex Boost on the defense side is inefficient but dex boost is just fine a strength merc with my level 8 Reflex boost on got 51 damage with double strike. To get any power at all out of Plasma Rain the Dex has to be above the chart.

Out of 10 2vs2 matches I lost 7 due to partners having bad builds when majority of time and Artillery Strike and the Plasma Rain would have did the job so stop trying to say the merc class is weak they have players with bad builds. Using builds for 1vs1 for 2vs2.

If I did not have to pour the majority of stat points into DEX to get power from the Plasma Rain then I would be able to put stat points into tech not only to deal with the tech mages plasma bolt but also deal with the players that want to send in the bot to do an energy attack and win the battle that way instead of using their skills especially when they got 50 Critical with focus level 4.

ScarletReaper, I just seen that this is what happens when you want a nerf you will not always get want you want so now I will try a high tech build with Plasma Cannon/Super Charge but as the tech mage has nothing to improve dex the Blood mage has nothing to improve tech.

The balance issue has always been a problem no more so then every when one class has to use a boost to get the power while the other class does not but now the tech mage has nothing to boost the power of Plasma Rain as the Blood Mage does which both classes once before could boost the power of the plasma rain. We are what you would call a balance yo-yo due to a skill that is link between the mage classes but two different classes.



< Message edited by Hun Kingq -- 4/15/2012 15:05:53 >
Epic  Post #: 54
4/15/2012 15:20:52   
Ranloth
Banned
quote:

Only one type of nerf that should happen is EMP and Atom smasher, since both could take away large amounts of energy be limited to one use per match and in 2vs2 and 2vs1 no two energy draining skills can be used on the same person. Since the bounty Hunter Class and the Blood Mage has no viable energy regain and that the Blood Mage has no type of energy drain and will never get one as it was made clear in a round about way by staff.

I'll agree on EMP - make numbers a bit lower (and level scaled) and take away improving by stats. I had Lvl 5 EMPs taking away 34+ Energy at once and for 14 EP only IIRC which can destroy any build, whether it has Reroute or not, high EP or not.
I could argue on Atom Smasher, it can miss but is based on Str which is a bit meh. Perhaps base it on weapon's damage itself instead of Str? Then you have to train it to get it to be effective not just have it at Lvl 1, just like EMP.
AQ Epic  Post #: 55
4/15/2012 15:41:44   
Hun Kingq
Member

Trans, just in a 2vs2, a cyber hunter used emp not once but 3 times one me while testing out super charge build wasting 2 energy boosters while he used static charge twice gaining his energy back the battle was lost with my weapons only getting less than 10 points of damage.

The highest energy drain from an EMP on me was 47 points

This is another true balance issue other multis that has to be dealt with.


BadLT, the mercs had Blood shield but everyone complained how weak it was but the mercs I fought that used it it worked against energy skills and energy based weapons, a useless skill it was called so it was replaced because players duped the staff in thinking the merc class is under powered with something to boost the damage of your rage which they did not need.

< Message edited by Hun Kingq -- 4/15/2012 16:00:58 >
Epic  Post #: 56
4/15/2012 15:54:19   
BadLT
Member

every class besides mercs has shields , we have weak hybird armor -.-
Honestly our class needs a boost...
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 57
4/15/2012 16:10:21   
khalidon5000
Member

Hun Kinqq
quote:

players duped the staff in thinking the merc class is under powered with something to boost the damage of your rage which they did not need.


Lol what? It increases rage gain by a maximum of 20% (Basically decreasing time taken to get rage by remember when maxed 20%).

Nice research.

< Message edited by khalidon5000 -- 4/15/2012 17:10:12 >
Epic  Post #: 58
4/15/2012 18:40:10   
Arevero
Member

Mercs takeaway Adrenaline and replace it with a new passive that improves dmg output. Make the requirement on support, and max % is 20%, highest requirement: 40sup. If mercs can't defend, let them engage. Or you could actually give them a 'Mercenary' ability, such as hiring another 'person' who could either heal, attack, defend for you, because that would be pretty cool.

EMP again makes Hunters unique, although i do agree that it is quite easy to control the opposing players EP, but then again we have no 1-turn kill skill(bunk, bolt, etc), so that is why we have EMP. Being a Hunter is all about strategy, whereas you have seen that caster mage/STR BM requires none of that, they have all powerful kill-skills in tier 1, we only have a cheapshot that can barely kill in a single shot.

And Atom smasher is fine, if you want to nerf it, increase EP to 10 to make it in par with EMP, and raise it's %. And hopefully 2v2 balance tracker can be dealt with sometime soon, i have had some unnecessary losses due to this fact. So yea, that's all i have got to say so far.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 59
4/15/2012 18:43:27   
Ranloth
Banned


 I actually updated my suggestion post, including Mercs and BHs this time and mentioning few of the skills. :3
If you want to read it then here's the link: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=20244634

Feedback would be appreciated as I add all the suggestions there over the time to keep it neat. :D
AQ Epic  Post #: 60
4/15/2012 19:27:28   
Wootz
Member

I really like your ideas Trans!
And I support them all!

Arevero,
That is basicly quite similiar to Diamond Blades which was taken away long ago due to the base damage increase.
The "Mercenary" ability sounds quite cool. :) I wonder how that would look.
Hunter. Strategy. We should battle. My whole strategy is Energy control. ^^

quote:

Trans, just in a 2vs2, a cyber hunter used emp not once but 3 times one me while testing out super charge build wasting 2 energy boosters while he used static charge twice gaining his energy back the battle was lost with my weapons only getting less than 10 points of damage.

Hun, next time, please just tank and be strategic a bit and actually use that Reroute a bit.
I saw higher EMP drains, I had higher aswell.
-----------
What I would like to see is basicly just a little, lets call it, "expansion" to the classes. Which would let them use other types of builds and not failing miserably.
For example, Cyber Hunters:
the only "effective" builds are: Strenght, Dexterity(both abuse) and Tankish.
Why don't Cyber Hunters use Technology or Support builds? Because they're weaker then they should've been. Belive me I tried.
And Blood Mages,
The only ones are Strenght, 5 focus, or if you torment your friend like me to try Support one(which is totaly the best of the listed)
I have never seen a tank Blood Mage, moderate defenses yeah, but high, like Tactical Mercenaries and Cyber Hunters nope.
Their only strategy is to be offensive and thats doesn't crush on them.
Every build has it weakness, Blood Mage's every build weakness is Energy drain. Which a Hunter or an Mercenary can easily do. With minimum chance of getting blocked. 'Cause face it, they got huge Dexterity. So do I.

And that is why I am supporting Trans' ideas. 'Cause it would eventually let all classes to try new builds that wouldn't get completly destroyed by "flavour of the month(s)" because probably more then 50% of the community is definetly in the currently Over-Powered class.
AQW Epic  Post #: 61
4/15/2012 19:42:38   
Joe10112
Member

Just occured to me:

Tech-Venom CH Loop Build.

Sounds complicated but here are the rebalances needed for this to work (totally fair IMO)

Remove SA from us CH, give to BM and swap with DA, rework SA so it gives passive % to connect as well (for zerker)
Remove Plasma Armor, give us Technician
Reduce Cooldown of Static Charge to 1, and buff up only slightly (to like maxxed out 35% or something), OR keep cooldown at 2 and bring at least (AT LEAST) back to normal.

(First of all, for those three suggestions, is anyone against that? I think it would give better balance IMO especially the DA->SA switch and the rework of SA)

Then, buff up the grenades in general. Maybe like +5 or so damage to them AT LEAST. Overload smites them in terms of damage I think.

Then with this all said, I introduce to you the Looping Tank Poison Annoying CH Build. (A mouthful).

Basically high DEX high TECH high HP low EP low STR mid SUP.

Mid-Heal, Mid/High EMP, Mid Defense Matrix, (Near) Max Venom Strike, Level 1 Massacre (for emergencies), mid Deadly Aim, high Technician.

Idea? Technician First turn then EMP. With high DEX and TECH already, Technician = Great TECH boost, then EMP for MASSIVE EMP LOSS. I swear, EMPs in the high 40s low 50s wouldn't make me surprised. All this at the mere cost of like high 10s low 20s EP. Static it all back, throw in a Venom Strike, Gun, then Static it again. Defense Matrix when necessary of course (against high STR or Smokes), Massacre for neat kill if needed, and heal when necessary. This would be a great Tank build and would keep your opponents just aimlessly striking/gunning/auxing and doing minimal damage on you. Wouldn't be surprised if this got a very very high ratio.

Anyway that was offtrack. My main point was the three points I've been saying all along-

quote:

Remove SA from us CH, give to BM and swap with DA, rework SA so it gives passive % to connect as well (for zerker)
Remove Plasma Armor, give us Technician
Reduce Cooldown of Static Charge to 1, and buff up only slightly (to like maxxed out 35% or something), OR keep cooldown at 2 and bring at least (AT LEAST) back to normal.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 62
4/15/2012 19:55:34   
Ranloth
Banned


 Again, SA -> DA for CHs and DA -> SA for BMs is a nerf for BMs and a buff to CHs which is not needed, with current or old skill tree. It'll make them even more OP, and Str builds cause DA to be removed? If Zerker is removed for sake of Assimilation or Bludgeon, then Str builds will be reduced as their damage output won't be as big. Abuse you may say? Stat diminishing is coming closer, give it a time and abusers will be weakened, no matter what stat.
Buffing up SA a little for CHs and their old skill tree is enough, and DA can stay with BMs due to above. DA is like HA and SA should stay with their respectable classes (DA = Mages, SA = Hunters, HA = Mercenaries). Reasons also above as of why I'm against it.
Technican, eh? Energy Shield would be much better as it'd gain you bigger defence to compensate for loss of Plasma Armor but whatever floats your boat I suppose.

At Joe again, Technican and EMP combo you say? That's what I'm getting at with my suggestion - make it fixed and scaled a bit by Level just like some other skills are. Then you cannot abuse it, you can take away as much as others can while keeping it strategical, not abusing.

quote:

Mid-Heal, Mid/High EMP, Mid Defense Matrix, (Near) Max Venom Strike, Level 1 Massacre (for emergencies), mid Deadly Aim, high Technician.

That build is purely asking for a nerf. Tanking, great EMP, Poison that breaks through Tanks, Massacre rarely used but in case you need it, boost from DA, more Energy from SC so you can Heal + EMP loop. Sorry but it's a no with DA for a reason. And high Tech + EMP is my point exactly, it's too strong or even OP, for any build or class.
AQ Epic  Post #: 63
4/15/2012 20:06:42   
Mr. Black OP
Member

Venom Strike should be made cheaper or stronger, its 2 less poison, has a requirement, the initial strike is blockable, and it costs just as much as toxic grenade.
Remove agility. Why should someone be given defense for neglecting a stat?
Have heal improve with support, but keep the minimums (example: a lv 1 heal at 34 will always be at least 33).
Make fireball require 1 additional point strength for extra damage and a support requirement instead of a dexterity one.


< Message edited by zman 2 -- 4/16/2012 21:11:56 >
Epic  Post #: 64
4/15/2012 20:48:43   
Hun Kingq
Member

Wootz, I am a Blood Mage, Blood Mages don't have reroute Just a Level 8 EMP took away 45 points of energy leaving me with a choice use reflex boost, Plasma Rain without the boost to get a as much damage on two players as I can then the second hunter took away 26 points of energy so I had to waste a turn using an energy boost too early in the match then I used Plasma rain when my turn came getting damage in the low 40s on each.

Multiple EMPs or Atom smashers give unfair advantage to those without energy regain with basically no power to the weapons due to they have to put as much points into tech or dex to get the viable damage we need to win the match.

Maybe this can be balanced out quicker than the multis but something needs to be done with both.

< Message edited by Hun Kingq -- 4/15/2012 21:50:42 >
Epic  Post #: 65
4/15/2012 20:54:58   
Arevero
Member

Do remember that you can use energy boosters, and btw, I'd really like to see the Merc hiring idea implemented, >.< and of course, not to powerful...

They better do the BM and CH change this week, we have already waited for months for a CH skill tree revamp. And I have seen BMs goin tech builds with SC and PC, cognrats to them for trying something new via the tech mages SC change. :D
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 66
4/15/2012 22:09:41   
liy010
Member

Yeah the Merc Idea...Remove Adrenaline and add Support Unit Which provides a 20% Chance to Heal, 25% Chance to add Defence (For 5 Turns), 25% chance to add resistance (For 5 Turns), 20% chance for a Strong Attack and 10% Chance for a Poison (I thought about increasing STR but hey, they've already got FC)

Support Unit (Increases with None :P)
15 Energy at level 1. Increases by 2 each level
Cooldown: 3
Warm-Up: 1
Level 1: Heals for 35 HP, Adds 3 Defence, Adds 3 Resistance, 20% more Damage, 4 Poison
Level 2: Heals for 37 HP, Adds 4 Defence, Adds 4 Resistance, 25% more Damage, 5 Poison
Level 3: Heals for 39 HP, Adds 5 Defence, Adds 5 Resistance, 30% more Damage, 6 Poison
Level 4: Heals for 41 HP, Adds 6 Defence, Adds 6 Resistance, 33% more Damage, 7 Poison
Level 5: Heals for 43 HP, Adds 7 Defence, Adds 7 Resistance, 36% more Damage, 8 Poison
Level 6: Heals for 46 HP, Adds 8 Defence, Adds 8 Resistance, 39% more Damage, 9 Poison
Level 7: Heals for 49 HP, Adds 9 Defence, Adds 9 Resistance, 42% more Damage, 10 Poison
Level 8: Heals for 51 HP, Adds 10 Defence, Adds 10 Resistance, 45% more Damage, 11 Poison
Level 9: Heals for 53 HP, Adds 11 Defence, Adds 11 Resistance, 48% more Damage, 12 Poison
Level 10: Heals for 55 HP, Adds 12 Defence, Adds 12 Resistance, 51% more Damage, 13 Poison

The % might be a little stronger but it's a gamble so you never know...You could have 3 HP left and heal is still on cooldown...Use this skill...Boom, the poison effect happens...Useless!

< Message edited by liy010 -- 4/15/2012 22:10:00 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 67
4/15/2012 22:43:36   
Joe10112
Member

@^: Er that skill is pretty OP. I mean really, really OP even with luck factor.

Anyway, I think that E. Shield and D. Matrix should not be together. Otherwise you get massive SUP builds and then HUGE HUGE HUGE tanks giving +20 points on like level 1.

I mean BMs, TMs, BHs all have (boost) + (opposite shield) (DM and Technician, or E Shield and Reflex Boost).

AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 68
4/15/2012 23:23:55   
Arevero
Member

uh 55hp heal seems a bit over the top for what i was thinking when i first thought of this idea. FM would be in the dust for Mercs almost, but then again it's a chance thing i guess. Make the max 11DEF/RES since the passive armors have reduced to 11pts, and make poison 12 and 45% more dmg. Heal goes down to 45, we don't want mercs to OP O.o.

AQ DF MQ  Post #: 69
4/16/2012 1:16:19   
BlueKatz
Member

quote:

I think BloodLust is fine as it is. I've been playing a level 19 Bounty these days and BloodLust at it's max only gives 23% which is like...2-3 Health back for every 10 Damage...What difference does 2-3 Health make...?

That's the problem with BL. It depends way too much on the stats difference. I do play with BH, and I don't enjoy the BL skills at all, not until I got max level and varium (using my cousin acc) - which turn out to be a real massacre against every weaklings. But it's so terrible vs anything with higher stats (including classes with armor passive).
I'm not sure how, but I think BL should be changed, it's not necessary to be a nerf but it should be more stable.

Also Azrael's Borg MUST be nerfed or changed, This is the most STUPID idea ever and it really ruined the whole fun challenging of the game. I did a long run yesterday and this bot remind me why I don't play ED as often as I would love to. Why the hell they think it's good idea putting a bot that only purposely shut down enemy strategy?

I don't play ED that much because all of those annoying thing Im listing. (and the ridiculous Block decay too)

Also I just checked Merc new skill and it's suck. It costs way too much skill points and Merc don't have skill points to spend on that. And it still sucks as a skill. Yeahh also since rage doesn't happen that much you can only spend it at some rate, not higher or lower (it's rank 7 or around that I think, depend on builds which Merc don't have many) - so it's really bad design.

Maybe some small tweak would help:
Level 1: 5 % More Rage Gain; 5% Lifesteal on Rage
Level 2: 7 % More Rage Gain; 7% Lifesteal on Rage
Level 3: 9 % More Rage Gain; 9% Lifesteal on Rage
Level 4: 11 % More Rage Gain; 11% Lifesteal on Rage
Level 5: 13 % More Rage Gain; 13% Lifesteal on Rage
Level 6: 15 % More Rage Gain; 15% Lifesteal on Rage
Level 7: 17 % More Rage Gain; 17% Lifesteal on Rage
Level 8: 18 % More Rage Gain; 18% Lifesteal on Rage
Level 9: 19 % More Rage Gain; 19% Lifesteal on Rage
Level 10: 20 % More Rage Gain; 20% Lifesteal on Rage

It's like 20-30 more HP on rank 10, fairly reasonable I think
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 70
4/16/2012 1:32:51   
Hun Kingq
Member

To get the same or greater damage that the merc classes gets with Artillery Strike with Support at 141 (29-35) with aux +38,
the mage class for Plasma Rain (80 potential damage) have to have DEX at 181 (45-54 +1) so as you can see this is not a small gap without reflex boost that is 30 points that could be invested else where like tech health support to boost Reflex boost so we could have less points there more in Deadly Aim to boost the sidearm with low strength for when the energy runs out.

Other than that the main problem with people thinking one class is over powered and another class is under powered is the wrong builds for the wrong Battle mode. In 2vs2 you don't want to pick off one player at a time but both at once. If i was a mage I would have a malfunction Plasma rain build for 2vs2 I let you figure out the rest of what to do. If you are on my side I see you have max Plasma Rain with lower Dex I would boost you dex so you could have damage in the mid 40s as well.

When players saw what damage I got with Reflex boost on they seen I did not use that skill for protection but as a boost because a strength merc with level 1 Double strike was not blocked and got 35 regular damage like if it was not there and with that knowledge they constantly went after me first because I was the more dangerous opponent.

I surely hope the staff will take this information and make adjustment to the plasma rain so that more mages will be inclined to use it in 2vs2 and with that adjustment that is how balance will be done, not nerfing Artillery Strike or Multi Shot.

Epic  Post #: 71
4/16/2012 3:03:57   
Arevero
Member

Is anyone going to fix ENH or tank issues? I remember Rabble's idea of quadrupling the amount of base stats you get per level, which is good, just please stop the TANKING. >.<

Anyways...as most have proposed, DEX should be in par with TECH. Why does it differ? it's really unfair and most of the time, a bounty with lv5 smoke reduces my 27-33DEF to 18-22DEF. ??? Is that really balanced? It also provides unfairness to specific class/builds. As a CH, we are needing more DEF than RES, therefore we get cheated by 10 or 12 stat points. Then a TLM can have massive RES due to it's advantage. I am not saying CH is weak, it just needs to balance out DEX with TECH.

Either increase TECH to make it balanced, or reduce DEX needed for DEF. And usually when i malf(lv5) someone with 31-38RES, they are left with 26-32 or 27-33RES which is obviously weird compared to Smoke Screen on DEF.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 72
4/16/2012 5:08:59   
drinde
Member

The EMP Nerf:

This could be solved by making a CAP with the numbers.

But I don't really think it needs that much of a nerf as removing improvement, since Cybers can't really do TECH builds while BHs are still not OP.

Now, I think we should focus on CH and BMs, until them TMs come out with another build. :3
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 73
4/16/2012 5:42:41   
Ranloth
Banned


 @Joe
quote:


Anyway, I think that E. Shield and D. Matrix should not be together. Otherwise you get massive SUP builds and then HUGE HUGE HUGE tanks giving +20 points on like level 1.

Support you say? In my suggestion, I wanted it to improve by Tech. If they need more Res, then making it improve by Tech is wise choice to compensate for no stat booster and loss of Plasma Armor. So Matrix would be Support-based as it is now, whilst E-Shield improves with Tech. :D

@BlueKatz
I quite like the idea, it'd require Adrenaline to work so you wouldn't heal on any Rage and gives nice buff for Mercs who have no EP nor HP regeneration. And 20% at max is really fine as most it'd heal at 50 damage is 10 HP which isn't really that much compared to BL, and it's only on Rage! :3

@Arevero
Rabble's idea of quadrupling stats? Some Forum member suggested it, Rabble disagreed with it as it's not necessary to x4 all the stats and re-work the game. I still stand by Goony's idea of enhancements not counting towards skills, but just attack/defence. So skills improve by your base stats + bonuses from weapons but not enhancements. Gap is smaller between Varium and non-Varium and enhancement's power is lowered don't - abuse wise. :)

@Hun
quote:

I surely hope the staff will take this information and make adjustment to the plasma rain so that more mages will be inclined to use it in 2vs2 and with that adjustment that is how balance will be done, not nerfing Artillery Strike or Multi Shot.

You can always test the skill (Plasma Rain) with someone and calculate what damage it should deal. If it deals below the amount it should, you can report it as a bug as it may be one as well. If it is, then "buff" will be due in as it'd be a bug fix which are taken care of quite quickly. ^^

@drinde
Can you read my suggestion on EMP? I explained why it should be changed and you could read Merc's section with Atom Smasher to justify my options. :D http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=20244634


Sorry for long post, but I feel like giving feedback will help others so why not!
AQ Epic  Post #: 74
4/16/2012 5:51:20   
drinde
Member

Instead of removing all those Improver Stats, what about making it harder to improve skills?

Also, I suggest Hybrid, Plasma and Mineral Armor get a shift:

Plasma/Mineral

LV01: +14% of base DEF or RES
LV02: +17%
LV03: +20%
LV04: +23%
LV05: +25%
LV06: +27%
LV07: +29%
LV08: +31%
LV09: +33%
LV10: +35%

Hybrid:

LV01: +3% of base DEF and RES
LV02: +7%
LV03: +10%
LV04: +12%
LV05: +14%
LV06: +16%
LV07: +18%
LV08: +20%
LV09: +21%
LV10: +22%

In my opinion, replacing ZERKER with Assimilation isn't that effective now. What if we replaced FIREBALL with it?

< Message edited by drinde -- 4/16/2012 5:53:04 >
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 75
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