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RE: =ED= June 6th Design Notes - A Stable Design Notes/1.4.5d Patch Notes

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6/6/2012 16:09:16   
Tiphareth
Member
 

 oh understand :) thank you :)
Post #: 26
6/6/2012 16:10:06   
Ranloth
Banned


 @Void
Then Multis would be pointless. Since Multi is meant to be used on 2v2 hence higher cost, not in 1v1 since it has lower damage compared to likes of Bolt or Fireball. Same cost would destroy the skill, one of the poor ideas since it'd deal:
- Less damage than 1v1 skill
- Less damage on 2v2
- Not worth the cost (EP efficiency)

It costs more EP because it deals more damage than 1v1 skill, that's total on on one enemy, and making it fixed is bad idea. Multi is self explanatory, meant to be used on multiple enemies.
AQ Epic  Post #: 27
6/6/2012 16:10:17   
Hun Kingq
Member

"Multi damage on more than one target increased from 75% to 85%"

So now with Plasma Rain on two targets it goes up from 15 damage on each player to 20 damage on each player with health over 100 and high resistance and it does not change the fact that super high dex will be needed to get any noticeable damage.

This change will not encourage players to use the multis in 2vs2 when single shot skills get 3x as much damage and cost less energy and that because the Blood Mage has no energy regain they need high damage to get any health benefit so let see fire ball, Plasma cannon, Bludgeon, overload usage or the weak Plasma Rain?
Epic  Post #: 28
6/6/2012 16:13:03   
Mr. Black OP
Member

^
I'm pretty sure plasma rain and multi-shot have the same power.
Epic  Post #: 29
6/6/2012 16:13:53   
PivotalDisorder
Member

@Hun Kingq: plenty were still using Multis when it was changed to 75% and can't see much changing now it's improved to 85%.
you are right about having to stack a stat to get the best out of it, but all classes benefit in other ways from having a stat high,
if you don't want to use a build with a high stat for the multi, then don't make that build? plenty of other options for 2v2.

ive got around 120+ dex and my multi is good enough, plus I get 41 def [max] and block a ton more.
Post #: 30
6/6/2012 16:16:57   
Ranloth
Banned


 Sure it deals less damage Hun, but it's split into two since it's called Multi (there's a reason for that). And 15-20 damage again? Lvl 1 Multi, I recall? ;)

Not trolling you or anything, please give some data of when you get such 15 or 20 damage. Good Multi, Dex/Tech/Support, is about 100 in the stat and they deal about 62-64 damage I believe total. 85% of damage is 53-54, and to deal 20 damage you need 33-34 Res/Def*. That's doable since you get 20 damage on that enemy, but there's a second enemy so it adds up to 40+ usually (if we assume same resistance or lower). Now using normal skill such as Bolt or Fireball dealing 72 damage (about 100 Tech/Str I believe), it'd deal 38-39 damage on one enemy. Now explain me where you get x3 more damage? And you get Rage from one enemy, Multi gives you two.

* Tell me cases when you get such high Def or Res? CHs and TLMs sure with good stats, but Mercs aren't as easy to reach it at times and non-Passive classes are stuck; stuck as in no Armor but have other skills to substitute for it such as DA, BL, etc.
AQ Epic  Post #: 31
6/6/2012 16:30:47   
Hun Kingq
Member

PivotalDisorder and Trans, what class do you play Blood mage or Tech mage? Does the Blood mage have anything to improve energy damage by reducing the resistance of the opposing players, no. When you and others understand that all what a Blood Mage have to increase the damage is stats and enhancement then and maybe then you will see that the Blood Mage have very little options. The lowest damage I seen was 5 damage on each player.

It was already stated that the Blood Mage is a high damage class and if Plasma Rain does less than 40 then how can the Blood Mage be considered a high damage class. For the Blood Mage to get any benefit from health regain not only they have to have Blood lust on mid to high level but also get high damage to see any benefit from it with damage less than 40 where is the benefit?

The low damage maybe alright for the tech mage class but they have reroute for the Blood Mage it is basically a one use skill.

< Message edited by Hun Kingq -- 6/6/2012 16:32:23 >
Epic  Post #: 32
6/6/2012 16:39:02   
Mr. Black OP
Member

^
BH/BM: High dexterity+reflex boost+plasma rain/multishot
CH/TM: High dexterity+malfunction+plasma rain/multishot
Merc/TLM: High support+artillery strike
So if anything mercenaries should be complaining because their multi does not improve with dexterity or technology so they are missing defenses, AND they cannot lower their opponent's defenses or raise the power of their multis like we can. If anything BMs and BHs would theoretically have the best 2v2 builds since they gain some health as well.

Also to gain enough energy to reuse a max multi in 2v2 as a mage you would need to take 133 damage with a max reroute.

< Message edited by Mr. Black OP -- 6/6/2012 16:40:58 >
Epic  Post #: 33
6/6/2012 16:39:32   
Ranloth
Banned


 High damage class = Glass cannon. Deals a lot of damage at cost of taking high damage. Why so? Str-based class - Fireball, DA, BL, Bludgeon. Who mentions Malf here as increase to damage? TM Multi build usually consists of maxed Overload, maxed Multi, about Lvl 7 Reroute, and leaving you with 4 stat points at Lvl 34. That's Lvl 3 Malf at most if you want it. With about 30 Support (if you don't need it, or have Support requirements), it's -22 Tech away. -5 Res at cost of 18 Energy + Str requirement of 23 (not relevant). Seriously, 5 damage?

5 damage? Understandable at Lvl 1 dude.. Good Multi is about 62-64 damage, after penality it's 53-54, where the hell have you met someone with 48-49 Resistance? Possible with a Shield but isn't that obvious, Sherlock.. Without Shield, you're looking at CH with Plasma Armor maxed, E Armor and 28-29 Resistance - doable but they rarely do so since it fits Dex build but costs some stat points too.

Please give us data. Without it, your points are severly invalid since you give no proof. Even in English Language, you must've learnt something along of "PEE" - Point, Evidence, Explain. You lack Evidence which affects your Explanation. This is no different, it's a game and you raise a point - give us evidence. If you wanna argue in a civilised way, provide data or don't raise the point since, as I said already, you have no data. Lastly, Lvl 1 Multi is not enough data.. >_>
AQ Epic  Post #: 34
6/6/2012 16:41:42   
PivotalDisorder
Member

@Hun Kingq: I have a 34 for every class, and also have an extra 31 BM, 33 CH and 32 TM.

Mercs and Tac Mercs can't lower res/def to favour their multi either, plus they don't get to stack a defensive stat to make it
even more powerful, they are stuck with support, the most underpowered stat in the game. we all know BMs need a slight
change but constantly complaining that everything isn't stacked in your favour for every fight is getting very old mate.
Post #: 35
6/6/2012 16:46:52   
rej
Member

Excellent, the Beta Weapons are now being classified as Ultra Rare.

_____________________________

It is difficult to enjoy your cake when your pants are on fire.
~Dragon of Time
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 36
6/6/2012 17:35:51   
Stabilis
Member

Suggested Plasma Rain -> http://i49.tinypic.com/64ku2d.png

Any suggestions?

(I am soooo bad at editing text)
AQ Epic  Post #: 37
6/6/2012 17:43:01   
Ranloth
Banned


 Yes. :3
- Post in =ED= Balance Discussion IX
- 50% damage to 2 enemies and 16 EP Cost each, that's same as on one enemy and 32 EP. No need to split it since it may confuse some people.
- Scales by 3 Dex? I demand Plasma Bolt and Fireball change as well since scaling would have to be changed - Multi is 2v2 skill, Bolt/Ball are 1v1 and Multi shouldn't top them.

And besides, no offence, it's quite crap (weak). 47 damage and 50% on each enemy, 24 before defences. Really? If we factor higher Dex, let's say 90 which is 20 damage meaning it's 67. Divide by 2, you get 34 and defences lower it down to below 10 since 24+ is average defences at high Levels. That's really worse than current Multi which can deal 20 damage easily at high Res/Def with about same Dex.
AQ Epic  Post #: 38
6/6/2012 19:25:15   
Hun Kingq
Member

After 20 failed battle starts here is the damage results from two 2vs2 for the Plasma Rain

67 potential damage without reflex boost dex at 111 31-38 +5 +1

Player 1 total resistance 33 - 39 with the 85% reduction 26 damage without 34 - 28

Player 2 total resistance 37- 42 with the 85% reduction 26 damage without 30 - 25


76 potential damage with reflex boost dex at 161 41-50 +5 +1

Player 1 total resistance 27-32 with 85% reduction 39 damage without 49 - 44

Player 2 total resistance 41-46 with 85% reduction 31 damage without 35 - 30

So as we can see the damage results without the reduction is still low so why do we have to have a reduction to damage that is already reduced by resistance. When players got malfunctioned before the changes and after the changes I saw real match changing damages from the Plasma Rain.

A Cyber Hunter with level 3 emp took away 40 points of energy just imagine two Level 3 emps so Plasma rain at max only using 40 energy does not mean nothing when a low level energy drain skill can take over half your energy and you have no way of regain energy. A Cyber hunter with 111 dex got 40 damage on me with level 7 multi shot that was with total resistance at 27-33 +5 +1.

The very first time I blocked over and over again was only against one level 31 cyber hunter rest of the matches no blocks while level 33 and 34 Cyber Hunters Blocked over and over again.

PivotalDisorder
Do you not forget the mercs multi improves with support and with high support they would get critical damage on their multi over 90% of the time while the Blood Mage Plasma rain can't due to lower support and that is why they don't have a debuff skill to increase damage of their multi. Then the tech mage using malfunction before Plasma Rain can get more damage than a Blood Mage using Reflex boost/Plasma Rain combo.

The merc Class have Hybrid armor with Delta armor they can have +12 defense/resistance with health at 94 can the Blood Mage have that with the Delta Armor?

How the multis scales with the stats need to be looked at and adjusted because when a Cyber Hunter with dex at 111 31-38 and my resistance at 27-33 +5 +1, not being malfunctioned and without him raging gets 43 damage with a Level 7 multi shot and I have more dex with reflex boost on and get less that 40 damage something is wrong with the scaling and the multis are not equal.

As the small percentage of you want to settle with the reduced damage multis many others in the game think it is crap especially when the damage is reduced already by resistance or defense.


Epic  Post #: 39
6/6/2012 19:43:13   
Stabilis
Member

@trans,

What if, Plasma Rain instead of the energy reduction bonus on 2 enemies, same damage, same energy cost, but instead, Defense & Resistance ignore? I will swap out this photo for a revised photo.

Edit:

Damage reduction AND D/R ignore.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 6/6/2012 19:44:39 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 40
6/6/2012 19:47:13   
Ranloth
Banned
quote:

67 potential damage without reflex boost dex at 111 31-38 +5 +1

Player 1 total resistance 33 - 39 with the 85% reduction 26 damage without 34 - 28

Player 2 total resistance 37- 42 with the 85% reduction 26 damage without 30 - 25


76 potential damage with reflex boost dex at 161 41-50 +5 +1

Player 1 total resistance 27-32 with 85% reduction 39 damage without 49 - 44

Player 2 total resistance 41-46 with 85% reduction 31 damage without 35 - 30

I have no idea how you got these numbers, I mean reduction or damage range. It's total damage * 0.85 (85%) = <<whatever result is>> - Resistance/Defence = x-y damage

quote:

A Cyber hunter with 111 dex got 40 damage on me with level 7 multi shot that was with total resistance at 27-33 +5 +1.

67 Damage * 0.85 = 57 - 39 = 18
67 Damage * 0.85 = 57 - 33 = 24

Damage he could've gotten was 18-24 on you (assuming your partner was alive). If partner wasn't, add 10 damage onto the range which is 28-34. I'll run these numbers just in case if it was Crit, Rage or both:
Crit: 18-24 + 17 = 35-41 & 18-24 + 20 = 38-44 --- Range was between 35-44
Rage: 18-24 + 15 = 33-39 & 18-24 + 18 = 36-42 --- Range was between 33-42

Needless to say Crit+Rage will ignore even more of it.

Excuse me Hun, but you're posting bunch of lies again. He sure got that damage on you, it was either Rage or Crit since 40 damage IS in the range. Seriously you wanna argue before calculations? Give some proof in form of screenshots before you post. It's crucial if you wanna justify your point.

quote:

The merc Class have Hybrid armor with Delta armor they can have +12 defense/resistance with health at 94 can the Blood Mage have that with the Delta Armor?

Right. And you as BM have BL which Mercs do not have, as well as DA. DA = Hybrid Armor, if you look at it you can get +10 damage at Lvl 10 DA with good weapon and negate HA which adds to +12 defence but split. Not gonna mention BL which will give you HP back. Really Hun? I mean really?
AQ Epic  Post #: 41
6/6/2012 20:47:06   
rej
Member

It seems like it would be more reasonable if the 15% was subtracted from the multies damage after applying enemy resistance defense. For example:
Enemy has 20-24 resistance
multi deals 70 damage base
(70 - 24) * .85


AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 42
6/6/2012 22:28:06   
Hun Kingq
Member

Trans, How do think I kept track of numbers and if the staff wants the screenshots then they can have them but for you, you get nothing. it is quite clear you have no idea that I was showing a comparison or that the first match two different players of two different classes with two different levels of resistance got exactly the same damage. If the staff is truly tracking the data from the battles them they will confirm the numbers I posted matches the ones from the battles.

Player 1 total resistance 33 - 39 with the 85% reduction (Output on the screen) 26 damage (This what it would have been without the reduction) 34 - 28

You know what before and after is this is before the change of the Plasma rain 34 - 28 damage this is after 26 damage. I put down what is shown to me on the screen. That Cyber Hunter did get that damage with Level 7 multi shot no rage no critical damage and with my resistance as high as it was that proves that the Delta armor fails with +5 resistance for a non passive armor class.

Last time I checked Deadly Aim does not offer any protection and at level 10 you need 42 support so a Blood mage without alpha or Beta weapons have to sacrifice points from somewhere else. Blood Lust does not give enough health at max when you are taking 10+ damage from two opponents in 2vs1 and 2vs2. Hybrid armor maybe split but what is +6 +5 +1 take that and put it on defense and resistance so the merc class with the Delta Armor gets back their +12 defense/resistance while the tact mercs and cyber hunters with their passive armors are just as bad.

I have no idea why you want to keep the multis weak and unequal while the rest are trying to correct the major mistake on staff part in thinking they should weaken the multis.

When two things are side by side and a overhead strike happens the amount of damage is the same but lessened depending on the amount of protection.

Before the changes to the multis they where screwed up and was not equal after the changes they are screwed up even more and further from equal.

The multis need to be redone and rescaled. All the formulas need to be revisited and updated because as things are added and changed so to the formulas needed to be updated.

Epic  Post #: 43
6/6/2012 23:13:05   
D.v.D.
Member

Do you not have any other build where plasma rain is not used?
AQ Epic  Post #: 44
6/6/2012 23:24:02   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 Hun Kingq, quite simply, if you are speaking to the community and trying to convince them, you need to show us screenshots. If you are not speaking to the community and only wish to speak to the mods/devs, then don't even bother posting here. PM them, with screenshots.
Post #: 45
6/6/2012 23:51:52   
PivotalDisorder
Member

@Hun Kingq: I want to believe you, but you always seem to be wrong and then you refuse to back it up with hard evidence. we are
not asking for much, just that when you post numbers like that in the balance topic or other related topics you actually link some
screenshots, cause otherwise all we see is yet more inaccurate statements from a person who now has a reputation for making them.

the balance tracker is only for 1v1 btw, so isn't going to show any results for multis in 2v2. Not sure if you knew that.

Maybe one day Blood Mages will get their own multi, or a different version is released that has same scaling as Artillery Strike and Multi
but the power of it seems ok to me, both in 1v1 and 2v2. plus like I said earlier, we get great benefits from stacking dex, as a bonus.

< Message edited by PivotalDisorder -- 6/6/2012 23:53:53 >

_____________________________
Post #: 46
6/7/2012 3:01:27   
FrostWolv
Member

When will the war come ?

_____________________________
Epic  Post #: 47
6/7/2012 4:09:46   
Ranloth
Banned
quote:

You know what before and after is this is before the change of the Plasma rain 34 - 28 damage this is after 26 damage. I put down what is shown to me on the screen. That Cyber Hunter did get that damage with Level 7 multi shot no rage no critical damage and with my resistance as high as it was that proves that the Delta armor fails with +5 resistance for a non passive armor class.

Yes yes yes. And that's impossible without Critical or Rage. I proven it by doing math. It's impsosible without either but possible with Rage or Crit or even both if you wish so. Give me screenshot, their Resistance and then we can talk. Currently it's like talking with someone who has no idea what they are doing. Evidence is crucial, Staff won't check your numbers as they do NOT track every move in battle. They track how skills are used, how efficient they are (if they are still used, how they affect battles, etc) but they do NOT track your damage in every fight. They have no need to check your numbers since you made them up - I proved it by math by calculating Rage and Crit Multi which seems to be right.
Not mentioning your previous argument where CH had PA maxed and E Armor and numbers were right. Before, you posted as if the guy had neither of them which caused wrong numbers. After you told us about PA and E Armor, math was right.

quote:

Last time I checked Deadly Aim does not offer any protection and at level 10 you need 42 support so a Blood mage without alpha or Beta weapons have to sacrifice points from somewhere else. Blood Lust does not give enough health at max when you are taking 10+ damage from two opponents in 2vs1 and 2vs2. Hybrid armor maybe split but what is +6 +5 +1 take that and put it on defense and resistance so the merc class with the Delta Armor gets back their +12 defense/resistance while the tact mercs and cyber hunters with their passive armors are just as bad.

I feel like I'm talking with a brick wall at times. Lvl 10 and 42 Support? Cool. Armors also require 42 Dex or Tech, what's your point? Wait what. Not offer protection? 10 damage = 10 defence, it's simple. The more you deal, the quicker you kill and the more you have defence, the less they deal. I thought it's like.. really obvious..

Unless you post evidence, don't bother bringing up the issue to the Forum. Evidence is a must if you want to show us it's a bug, you must not use Staff to give you the data since it's you who must give it. If you report a bug, it's YOU who needs to give data so they can reproduce it. Works same here in balance.
Notes: Bunker critting wasn't a bug, I gave my own data. See how that works? Exactly. :)

AQ Epic  Post #: 48
6/7/2012 4:12:44   
khalidon5000
Member

@FrostWolv
quote:

We should be starting up with the new war later this month, but preparations must still be made.


@Trans Hun Kingq will not give you a screenshot so just leave it.
quote:

Trans, How do think I kept track of numbers and if the staff wants the screenshots then they can have them but for you, you get nothing.

You have said everything that needs to be said and this is going nowhere.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Also, could we have pictures of the new weapons?
I'm very excited about the new shop, let us just hope the weapons have nice stats :D
One last question, will the weapons be level 35?

< Message edited by khalidon5000 -- 6/7/2012 4:23:06 >
Epic  Post #: 49
6/7/2012 4:29:26   
Ranloth
Banned


 http://disturbedae.deviantart.com/

Here's Disturbed's account. He always posts his weapons on Twitter - just pictures - and animation included on Deviant Art. So big chunk of them will be in the shop tomorrow, which ones we don't know but expect quite a few. ;)

And yeah, I'm dropping it unless Staff will come in since yes, it's going nowhere. Or it's maybe BMs trying to fool Balance Tracker to get a buff, just like Mercs apparently did it so they do it too.. Logic is killing me here. <_<

< Message edited by Trans -- 6/7/2012 4:42:59 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 50
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