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RE: Energy steal BM?

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11/13/2012 10:21:45   
Mysterion.
Member

Mother1

TLM: Frenzy + Reroute?
TM: Overload + Reroute?
BH: Reflex Boost + Blood lust?
BM Reflex Boost + Blood lust

And assimilliation is 3 turn cooldown.

So get your facts straight.

< Message edited by Mysterion. -- 11/13/2012 10:26:33 >
Epic  Post #: 26
11/13/2012 10:33:20   
Mother1
Member

Mysterion

It still destroy's builds one, and two none of those combos gives you back energy and health in the same attack like assimilation and blood lust would! Also overload doesn't give you back energy it only at best stun's your opponent.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 11/13/2012 10:35:45 >
Epic  Post #: 27
11/13/2012 10:40:18   
Mysterion.
Member

I meant Super Charge instead of Overload, my bad.

But still, it doesnt matter if they recover in the same turn. its about the whole picture to bring down the OP Str BM.

And if they lose bludgeon it instantly lose one of their strongest attacks.

The only downside is that the Focus builds have a bigger advantage, but this would make them just like TLM's
Epic  Post #: 28
11/13/2012 10:46:28   
Mother1
Member

Assimilation believe it or not works with strength with it's physical damage. while it's main purpose isn't to do damage it still does just that along with energy drain. Plus it doesn't even cost any energy so it can be spammed just like strike and they can gain energy from it to use other skills. This won't help bring down OP strength builds. This will only help to OP them even more since bludgeon cost energy and can be blocked (at the cost of gaining more rage) so it is hard to spam this move while assimilation costs nothing, if it is blocked help they gain more rage, and can be used again after cool down while having the power to destroy exact energy builds.

If you want to bring down Str BM then I suggest nerfing strength itself since by doing this all of the strength builds will come down in power along with the moves they use.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 11/13/2012 10:48:53 >
Epic  Post #: 29
11/13/2012 11:08:37   
Mysterion.
Member

First of all, Assimilliation deals primary weapon dmg, so if they have energy primary its not psysical.
And since it has a 3 turn cooldown and Bludgeon only 2. And its also blockable just like bludgeon
And all Str BMs only need max 5 turns to kill sow they can only do it twice.
And 12 energy isnt enough to use another skill that is above lvl 2.

Sow yeah, this would definetly get the STR a bit down

< Message edited by Mysterion. -- 11/13/2012 11:11:22 >
Epic  Post #: 30
11/13/2012 11:16:24   
Mother1
Member

quote:

First of all, Assimilliation deals primary weapon dmg, so if they have energy primary its not psysical.
And since it has a 3 turn cooldown and Bludgeon only 2. And its also blockable just like bludgeon
And all Str BMs only need max 5 turns to kill sow they can only do it once.
And 6 energy isnt enough to use another skill


1 The primary works with strength just like any melee attack which won't just BM but help them since bludgeon is locked as a physical move.
2 The point is it can still steal energy while bludgeon can't and it doesn't cost energy either. Depending on the situation Assimilation could would be worse the bludgeon since even with this one turn cool down can still be reused without worry.

3 I call you on this one. I have thought plenty of BM and not all of them were beaten in 5 turns. Depending on the player it would sometimes take longer to do so.
4 It is if they don't use exact energy. I have come across many BM who don't use exact energy or if they do sometimes leave their plan and use another more leaving leftover energy. Assimilation would only give them back the energy they need for another skill and if it is the right skill for them it will bring pain for you.

Also lets just say they do what you wanted and added Assimilation in the place of bludgeon. People can and will adjust their builds to work with this move (AKA adapting) so that when they use this move they will have the energy later on to use their moves along with destroying other builds.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 11/13/2012 11:19:52 >
Epic  Post #: 31
11/13/2012 11:20:13   
Mysterion.
Member

Yeah, they can steal energy but what will they do with it?

The only ATT skill left for them is Fireball. And if you max Assimilliation you cant even max Fireball anymore.

Sow in order to even get assimilliation to work, they already lose 2 other skills power since bludgeon is mostly under lvl 5 and Assimilliation needs to be at least 9 to work
Epic  Post #: 32
11/13/2012 11:24:26   
Vegafire
Member

The fact that we have DA and Bludge and Bloodlust does not mean we are overpowere for all 3 you need str and Support meaning that our defences are extreemly low, if they are using a 5 focus build then yes there defences are raised but attacks are nerfed without changing any aspect of the game. Every class is good as one another and i know threw experience of using every class you just need to work out the most suitable build for your playing style and execute the skills in perfect order each time.
AQW Epic  Post #: 33
11/13/2012 11:35:46   
Mother1
Member

quote:

Yeah, they can steal energy but what will they do with it?


Even if they couldn't do anything with it at best, they can still destroy builds with this by draining 12 energy away. At the worst if they have extra leftover energy (since some BM will change plans if they have to.) they will have energy for a reflex boost, energy shield, or even healing since if they change plans they will have extra energy and assimilation will only add to that energy pool along with dealing heavy damage with strength.

quote:

The only ATT skill left for them is Fireball. And if you max Assimilliation you cant even max Fireball anymore.


Most strength BM don't even use fireball anymore thanks to it being nerfed, and if they do it they use it with rage. Plus Assimilation right now is more powerful then fireball so you give them this move most willl gladly leave fireball at level 1 so they can use a max assimilation. Oh wait fireball is in the top tier so even if it stays at level 1 it is still usable.

quote:

Sow in order to even get assimilliation to work, they already lose 2 other skills power since bludgeon is mostly under lvl 5 and Assimilliation needs to be at least 9 to work


They still have deadly aim sidearm which is very powerful, they still have their melee attacks, and now they will have assimilation which will do damage, gain health due to bloodlust, and give back energy at the same time while effectively destroying another players build. Fireball is hardly every used by most BM due to the nerf unless they rage it for the old damage, and level 5 bludgeon? Ok don't know what BM you fight, but the ones I encounter use levels 8-9 at least so it isn't a big lost for them.
Epic  Post #: 34
11/13/2012 11:36:53   
Mysterion.
Member

Deathshadowslayer

I also agree with you, i do not find BM OP. But most people do think that because of the high str builds.
But you have too agree that assimilliation would be very negative for your str builds.

It is only more balanced since they dont have a energy steal skill and already have more powerfull attacks
Epic  Post #: 35
11/13/2012 12:23:56   
Ranloth
Banned
quote:

The fact that we have DA and Bludge and Bloodlust does not mean we are overpowere for all 3 you need str and Support meaning that our defences are extreemly low, if they are using a 5 focus build then yes there defences are raised but attacks are nerfed without changing any aspect of the game.

Who cares about defences? High Str and BL cover defences just as good as well as crush through Tanks. Who cares it will deal less damage? Damage is NOT everything. You say that we find BMs OP due to high Str builds yet it's YOU who says that they lose damage. It is NOT the most important thing.
So for DA + Bludgeon + BL you need Support? Yeah like bare minimum for DA since there's no point in maxing it.. :l I can do, with my equipment, 120+ Str build whilst maintaining a bit over 20+ Res and Def, get use out of decent DA, and loop it. Whether it's TM or BM, both can work (and Reroute + high HP + low defences + high Heal = beast).

Do BMs need EP steal? No. They aren't needed in every class nor it's balanced to give them one. TMs ONLY have Assimilation because Atom or EMP-like skills would overpower the class so they have that to drain EP and it's up to 12 EP at most at Level 10 whilst other drainers have that easily at Lvl 1 with low Tech/Str. BMs have stronger skills than TMs because of BL and DA, you already have damage combo and BL (Heal) allows you to skip defences if you wish to or make up for them. By that logic, why doesn't TM's Assimilate drain HP? I'd love HP drain since it's hell of a lot more useful and we already have Reroute.
The combo you have is strong enough. No it's NOT Bludgeon but your skills, they are powerful as they are (Cannon skips defences + Crit chance, Fireball = Plasma Bolt, Multi is same for all). You have better damaging skills than TMs, that's why you don't need EP drain. Fact BHs do have EMP and BL makes up for the fact majority of their skills are blockable and they don't have passive damage boost.

Just a quick question at you, if BMs already HAD Assimilate, why do you think it was taken out later on? Exactly. >_>
AQ Epic  Post #: 36
11/13/2012 12:43:19   
Mysterion.
Member

Well Trans, because i didnt know that BMs had assimilate before?

I came in just after the Bionic Battlelion Sage. So i never experienced the nerfs of all the classes, thats why.

And i only say that EP steal would make the STR BM builds less OP then they are right now, because now bludgeon is a deadly attack, and for the whole balance section it would be better.
Since BMs already have enough ATT skills, and no Energy skill i think it would be better too make it less OP
Epic  Post #: 37
11/13/2012 13:10:24   
Ranloth
Banned


 But the only problem people have with Bludgeon is the Strength abuse. It's fine otherwise for them AND their solutions for fixing them is making BMs (as a class) scapegoats. Few people just want slower progression to Strength, then it'll be efficient nerf to Str abusers but also will nerf everyone's build by a bit which will solve the issue once and for all.*

EP steal isn't needed nor a nerf to any of BM's skills, only change that should be done is nerfing Strength progression and then BMs won't be an issue for anyone (if you put +1 Str to progression at all Levels, it'll nerf the damage by up to 4-6 IIRC, for abusers). Not much but it does add up since Bludgeon relies on it and so do Guns (and DA).
They have good combos already without EP drain (nor EP steal). TMs barely made it with EP drain, in fact Assimilate was given as an additional skill (when all classes received one), so before that TMs were the only class without EP drain too. BMs make up for that in damage instead since Assimilate isn't that strong as it is & blockable on top of it.

* People also have issues with BHs and seek a nerf due to Smoke + Mass combo (coupled with BL), yet nerfing Str will directly affect everyone and balance them out too. Simple change yet should prevent nerfing individual skills & turn the class into oblivion.
AQ Epic  Post #: 38
11/13/2012 13:55:51   
Mysterion.
Member

I dont have a prob with BH's. I think they are one of the easiest because they are nothing without massacre, and i can take that away easily sow.

i also think that str does not need to be nerfed, it is fine like this.
If someone wants to abuse str, let them.

I as a TLM went 1vs1 today (with my jugg build) and over the 100 battles i guess i have lost 3 of them?
and guess of what classes? TLM, TM and 1 BM (Focus build)

No bounty nor BM (STR build) has beaten me, and i faced good ones (Daddi Fudge, Slashkillia 2nd, Allas).

The only reason i came up with this is to nerf the whole 'BM STR OP' thought of everyone
Epic  Post #: 39
11/13/2012 14:23:09   
Mother1
Member

@ mysterion

Just because you can deal with strength builds doesn't mean everyone else can. I myself can handle some strength builds but if they have overwealming strength (120+) even with high defenses they cut through your defenses faster then you can remove their health. That is why most want strength builds nerfed because they are OPing the masses or don't you remember when BM could 2 turn people with fireball and berzerker when they had it regardless of who then came across?

When one build can destroy all it is OP and that is what str BM was before their last 2 nerfs. Also I have to ask you if you don't find strength BM to be a problem then why do you want to remove bludgeon for assimilation?
Epic  Post #: 40
11/13/2012 14:41:18   
Mysterion.
Member

Mother1

Didnt i said i never experienced the nerfs of all the classes? I never saw a BM with berzerker, nor a TLM with smoke.
I came after the Bio Sage.
And if a Tank TLM build can outclass STR BM, its not a OP build.

And i want that sow i can steal energy as a Blood, because everybody should have one.
Epic  Post #: 41
11/13/2012 15:09:08   
Ranloth
Banned


 They should but don't have to. Just like not every Class needs a debuff, TLM is prime example. They can live without one and so can you without EP drain. It was taken away once for a reason, Str abuse was one of them. It doesn't matter Fireball is weaker now, it had the SAME power back then and Zerker but Bludgeon is EP-efficient which makes it sometimes better than Zerker.
AQ Epic  Post #: 42
11/13/2012 16:31:46   
Metallico
Member

Bludgeon should be replaced for double strike, it requires much more energy and deals lower damage than bludgeon
Epic  Post #: 43
11/13/2012 16:38:24   
Ranloth
Banned


 It's a Merc skill and Tier 1. You may not see it but it's not locked to Physical which means you're more flexible with it. You cannot shove in Tier 1 skill into Tier 2 since it means that the skill will get a buff instead to fit into the 2nd tier thus ending up better in terms of damage than Bludgeon, not fixed to Physical but a bit higher Energy perhaps.

See what I told you? People want swapping skills that are fine and won't look into dealing with the STAT which causes the issue with it (Str abuse + Bludgeon; nerf Str and Bludgeon will deal less damage). <_<
AQ Epic  Post #: 44
11/13/2012 16:57:59   
Mother1
Member

@ trans

There is something else I noticed about all strength skills. Every single one of them has does (insert X Percent more) damage instead of actual scaling ranges like the moves with Dex, tech, and support. Do you think scratching this current strength system, and making each move scale with strength like every other skill will help with the nerfing to strength itself?
Epic  Post #: 45
11/13/2012 17:00:32   
Ranloth
Banned


 % means it'll work at any level which is good. Putting it into range means they are somewhat fixed (and level scaled) which prevents abuse in a way but could end up making the skill too weak and skills being too plain with ~same ranges. %-based skills are fine, Strength mainly benefit from it but you can deal with Strength once and for all by slowing down the progression.
AQ Epic  Post #: 46
11/14/2012 6:03:32   
Scyze
Member

As The ND Mallet Guy posted, 2 Energy Points is a difference maker.
BM's Reflexive Boost lasts 4 turns. You get 15% Energy of the damage done.


Blood Mages are already OP. What else do you want?
This is stupid. Why am I even here.

I think this is the same as;
Taliban forces should get an EMP device so that the Good Guys lose connection with the allies.

@LegitKillz
Use your brain. You just want BMs to be OP. I know that. We all know that. Even if I was a BM, I would disagree with this as to this would be too unfair to Non-Varium players and a few other beginers.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 47
11/14/2012 6:07:43   
Mysterion.
Member

I have too disagree.

BM's are not OP.
If one build can outclass all those BMs out there it is not OP.

Assimilliation will only bring their att skills down since it can be blocked and has a 3 turn cooldown.
And since the STR builds dont have high dex, it will get blocked most of the time.
And even if they steal the Energy, where will they use it for?
A STR BM has no skill that requires less then 12 as i remember, and if it does, its a lvl 1 and its weak.
And also they have to get it lvl 9 to even get 5 energy back.

And for the Focus BM's out there, they have most of their skill points spend on Reflex Boost, Energy shield, BL, DA and FM, right?
They must drop one or two of them to even get Assimilliation on a good lvl.

So more OP (even its really not OP)?
How can you make it up?

< Message edited by Mysterion. -- 11/14/2012 6:12:53 >
Epic  Post #: 48
11/14/2012 6:14:12   
Ranloth
Banned


 Str abuse, BL, DA + Gun, looping Assimilate. They don't have to get use out of 6, that 6 can be ADDED onto existing poll of Energy and allow you to use other skill. You have high damage so you crush through people's defences & if they are Tanks then you rage faster, you have low defences but your damage makes up for it and BL gives you back HP, Assimilate deals damage (same as Strike) AND takes their Energy AND gives some to you.

You severly underestimate Assimilate, it's powerful in TM's hands as it is. Str TM can abuse hell outta it if you do the build correctly.

TLMs have NO debuff yet they can COMPETE. ALL classes have debuff (Intimidate is one too) so why not TLM? Oh wait they cannot have one due to Passive Armor and Reroute. You can live without EP drain as well, you don't need it since BMs are focused on dealing damage more than tanking (heck, even description says similar thing). Or look at the skills; you have more offensive power than TMs so EP drain isn't needed, even that low.

PS. Last time Balance Team spoke, BMs were OP'ed but that was before Fireball change. Can you give us some of YOUR data to prove your point? You said if ONE build can outclass all those BMs then it's not OP. Then that ONE build is OP, especially if it's unbeatable one. You ARE supposed to lose and it's not "one build to rule them all" so builds should and do have flaws (weak points).

PS2. Assimilate at Lvl 1 is good enough too. I used it with Caster TM in Juggernaut a lot since players without EP regen (Reroute/SC) usually have Energy 1-2 above what they need. So it's really handy even at that low level.

< Message edited by Trans -- 11/14/2012 6:15:25 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 49
11/14/2012 6:15:17   
Scyze
Member

This would be a good suggestion.

The amount of Energy you take away; you take 1.75 X of the actual number as damage to your HP.

The minimum you can take away is 17.
This is still going to be unfair though.

quote:

If one build can outclass all those BMs out there it is not OP.


The U.S Army's guns outlast the Talibans. That isn't considered OP. It is considered "P".

Here's the thing pal; back when Berzerker was present, people would have 80 - 90% win ratio on the 1v1 Leaderboard. Now look, over 90%.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 50
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