RE: Frenzy Underpowered?


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3/6/2013 23:36:53

Giras Wolfe
Member

Frenzy only recieved the Club requirement in an earlier attempt to balance the class. It's not really justified. But then, on the other hand, then basically nothing in their tree would require the class weapon.

So I would support increasing the gainback % only.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 26

3/7/2013 2:08:03

master x guardian
Member

Well Atom Smasher requires a Club but I see what you mean Giras; I suppose Frenzy would be better off having the Club Requirement.
The 6% boost certainly seems fair and Exploding Penguin brought up the block issue which I think is noteworthy. If it's code-able I certainly think it should give some portion back. Maybe 20-30%?

AQW

Epic

Post #: 27

3/7/2013 2:18:39

kittycat
Member

Frenzy is fine the way it is, though a small buff won't hurt. the buff should be +3% if buffing frenzy is in consideration.

Post #: 28

3/7/2013 2:44:44

Promaster
Member

On a side note, why are you comparing the passive skill of a class to an active skill of another class? You cant compare an apple with an orange. You tlms should be glad you even HAVE frenzy. BHs only have bloodlust and SA as our passives. Tlms have mineral armor and reroute. Not to mention that not every BHs have max shadow arts, we really only have one reliable way of prolonging the fight. The fact that tlms are naturally tanky with reroute makes it possible to loop heal 3 or even 4 times with generator. Couple that with frenzy, you can actually regen back a lot more health compared to BHs because remember, BHs only have a limited amount energy. And with the fact that tlms already have two reliable passives for both defence and ep regen, i dont see why there's a reason to have frenzy on par with bloodlust. Plus a lot of tlms have the infernal android, so the longer they prolong the fight, it'll just be a sure-win for them.

And i'm not so sure about the math as i'm not interested in the formulas as such, but with your mineral arnor being passive all the time, you basically reduce all physical damage by 10, no? So with this, it'll just be like being able to heal 10 damage at the start of every turn provided the enemy used physical attacks. Compared to bloodlust that only heals 3-9 damage depending on who you face, dont you think bloodlust is in fact inferior to mineral armor? Sure, thr enemy will rely on using energy damage instead, but this itself is a plus since you have bloodshield that synergizes with frenzy to defend against energy attacks.

I'm a BH myself and i lost to quite a number of tlms because of their loop heals. So if you do find Tlms to be UP, its not the class. Its just you.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 29

3/7/2013 13:12:22

master x guardian
Member

quote:

And i'm not so sure about the math as i'm not interested in the formulas as such

That right there. Seeing that tells me that your balance input is moot because you choose to disregard the formulas of the game. Mathematics is my evidence...where's yours? Secondly, your statement about Reroute is a bad point because in the Omega battle environment, health points hold more merit than energy points. In fact, this has ALWAYS been true, as you could tell with high HP and low defense Strength Blood Mages. Reroute also is dependent on the amount of health you have in battle, making health an even more necessary asset; this also means TLMs also have a limited amount energy. And another note, Bounty Hunters have Reflex Boost which functions as a mini-Reroute. It also raises your block chance and hit chance which helps your health, and I've already established health investment is worth more than energy investment.

Also comparing an active skill and passive skills is perfectly acceptable in this case because a skill that costs absolutely nothing but pure investment should not out-perform a skill that actually costs energy, needs investment, AND requires a class specific weapon. Again, it is also limited to a block-able strike whereas Blood Lust applies to every single attack you perform.

Your Mineral Armor argument also falls short because facing a tank means you get more rage gain. And rage IGNORES passive defense.

quote:

you have bloodshield that synergizes with frenzy to defend against energy attacks

This made me laugh. You realize synergy means work together right? A system that has synergy has components that complement each other. If anything, Frenzy and Blood Shield CANCEL each other! One costs HP and the other gives HP...the net result? Nothing happens.

quote:

I'm a BH myself and i lost to quite a number of tlms because of their loop heals. So if you do find Tlms to be UP, its not the class. Its just you.

Now, I'm no expert EpicDuelist but honestly, that doesn't contribute to the discussion at ALL. And anyways, I'm not talking about TLMs to be UP, I'm talking about a SINGLE particular skill. If you think one skill makes a whole class UP...I'm not sure what I can say there.

< Message edited by master x guardian -- 3/7/2013 13:28:28 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 30

3/7/2013 21:46:25

Promaster
Member

quote:

choose to disregard the formulas of the game

Now, now. Just because i'm no math geek doesn't mean i dont know how the battle mechanics work. I only said i'm not interested, it doesn't mean i disregard it. And sure health holds more merit than energy, but what can you do when you have no energy? And so how does BMs with high hp and str with low defenses fare? They're pretty weak in my opinion. All they can do is kill quick or die quick, so what's your point? Sure health is an important asset, however, it all goes down to the build. I have had several players with a total of 75 hp beat me, so having high or low health really isn't a problem. Yes reroute is dependent on the amount of health tlms have, but with that knowledge you have, why spend all your ep in the first place and rely on reroute to get it back? Reroute is more likely based on how your strategy goes. Heals play a part in adding to your health as well, so by healing 2 to 3 times in battle, you really have, assuming you have a level 4 heal at level 35 for example, 45+45 = 90 or 45+45+45 = 135 + base health in total. So if you have, let's say 90 base health, that's a whooping 180/225 total health you have for that battle. Isn't this much health already enough for tlms to fully make use of reroute? Sure Tlms have limited energy, but is it as limited as the amount of ep BHs have?

Sure BHs have reflex, but which BHs in their right mind will ever use reflex boost just for the ep regen? And if we do block when reflex is active, we gain no ep back whatsoever, so again, what's your point? And reflex boost is an active skill, so we have to spend one turn to even use this skill and let the opponent attack us for it. If you only strike when your opponent uses reflex boost knowing that you have a good chance of being blocked, something is wrong with your attacking strategy. Sure unblockables will be used and we'll regen back ep, but what are the chances of us regaining back the amount of ep we spent using reflex boost? Highly unlikely would be my answer. I hardly even get back over 15 energy when i use it since i only use my reflex boost against smoke users.

Yes, if you compare the two skills directly, frenzy is in fact inferior to bloodlust. But, a lot of skill synergizes with each other in the skill tree of tlms, all thanks to reroute. Not to mention how strong a tank with reroute and lifesteal is. Sure, frenzy requires you to only strike with a club. But of course, in order to use a skill that gives you back health costs a low amount of energy, surely something much be done to balance it out, and hence the club requirement.

Oh, so we rage every 2 turns against tlms? FM, regenerator and frenzy are all there to be used to counter it. Plus, tlms have surgical strike to reduce rage too. Ever thought of using it, even if it's level 1? I knew i used it back when i was a tlm, and it sure worked wonders. And with the base ep being increase now in omega, using 32 ep wont hurt the build as much anyway.

Yes, frenzy and bloodshield do in fact work together. Laugh all you want, knock your socks off. Frenzy negates the amount of health you used for blood shield. One costs hp, the other gives HP. The net result? You gain pure resistance to your already high resistance. Blood shield works as a double edged sword, but with frenzy, you actually make it viable to be used more often in battles.It's really your loss if you cant get these two skills to work together. And you really dont know the full potential of the tactical mercenary class if you dont even know of the frenzy + bloodshield combo. Dont think of the skills as cancelling each other, but think of the two skills as working together.

If tlms aren't UP, why buff frenzy in the first place? They're fine the way they are now, so I dont see why they even need a buff. Like someone said in this thread, TLMs are not UPed. They're just not common. I never did say that frenzy made the class UPed. I only just merely assumed that by saying frenzy was UPed, you meant that TLMs are UPed as well. Sure frenzy is inferior compared to bloodlust, but that does NOT make frenzy UPed.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 31

3/7/2013 22:52:48

master x guardian
Member

quote:

And so how does BMs with high hp and str with low defenses fare? They're pretty weak in my opinion. All they can do is kill quick or die quick, so what's your point?

You make it sound like high HP BMs still exist. I was referring to Pre-Omega and to before Fireball was nerfed. Remember those 140+ HP Blood Mages? That's what I'm referring to.

Secondly, you're saying that a TLM can get 180/225 health in a single battle but you're forgetting that the 4-turn cool-down (Which is the LONGEST cool-down on any skill in-game) on Field Medic makes that almost impossible; it's better to spend that energy on skills that are immediately available for use or else your energy goes back to the maximum amount and then you're taking damage for no gains.

I also know that no BH in their right mind would use Reflex Boost, I was merely suggesting that your class has ways of recovering energy. And contrary to what you believe, Reflex Boost gives a flat 15% energy regain across all levels so it is possible to regain the amount you spent if you used a level 1 Reflex Boost...just saying. And my point is that if you block, it matters not if you don't regain the energy because like you said, no one uses Reflex Boost for the energy anyway. What matters is your opponent wasted a valuable turn attempting to chip away your HP and instead, you not only keep that HP but on your very next turn, you gain even more back.

I'll address your next two points together because they're linked. You say that Frenzy has a low cost. Fine, let's go with the 13 for a Level 5 Frenzy as the cost in question. Next, you suggest the use of a Level 1 Surgical Strike, which as you aptly pointed out is 32 energy. Right there that's 45 energy. Plus the 25 energy for Level 5 Heal. That's 70 (This is already several points HIGHER than base energy at Level 35) energy spent and now the skills are all in cool-down. This is for a ONE-time use of the three skills you suggested. A TLM would be lucky to get the 25 energy to fire off another Level 5 Field Medic because even at Max Reroute, that requires taking more than 80 points of damage (80 times .30 = 24) which is what is needed for your suggested Level 5 Field Medic. 80+ damage for a Field Medic...that sure makes heal-looping sound possible all right. I'll also add that usually, people can rage a turn after Surgical Strike so it's not like they can never rage again.

For your Frenzy and Blood Shield "synergy", I honestly can't sway your opinion on that. If you truly they work together, fine by me. Makes perfect sense because for Blood Shield to be remotely useful, it should be at Level 5/6, which at level 35, costs 9 or 10 health to use. Gee, in that case, your Level 5 Frenzy better do at least 23 damage or you're not gonna get back the 9/10 health...in which case you'd have a net LOSS. So in this case, Frenzy is only best for "mitigation" and not "synergy." The best part is, we can't even compare Blood Shield to other self-damaging skills because it's the ONLY one.

quote:

I only just merely assumed that by saying frenzy was UPed, you meant that TLMs are UPed as well. Sure frenzy is inferior compared to bloodlust, but that does NOT make frenzy UPed.

For this I'm just gonna reiterate that an Active Skill should not be outperformed to this extent by a Passive Skill.

< Message edited by master x guardian -- 3/7/2013 23:06:34 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 32

3/8/2013 0:10:30

Exploding Penguin
Moderator

Blood lust, from my point of view, is easily superior to mineral/plasma armor (although possibly not to hybrid armor). The reason is that having a passive armor focused into one of the defenses pretty much forces you to invest more in the other defensive stat, which happens to weaken TLMs due to their many useful skills which are blockable. Also, you can penetrate passive armors with rage, as well as just work around it by attacking with the other damage type. I can list multiple reasons as to why BHs overall have an advantageous skill tree compared to TLMs:

-Important skills like atom smasher and frenzy are easily blockable by shadow arts and smokescreen
-Mineral armor makes many TLM builds have weaker overall dex. Considering there's diminishing return, using smokescreen on a person with low dex will have more effect on defense than compared to a higher dex opponent.
-Rage penetrates the passive armor and makes it useless for a turn
-Blood shield requires an entire turn and a hefty amount of HP to cast for an overall weak shield that is only a benefit because it lasts a long time

Also make note that shadow arts became a lot more effective since stronger yetis were introduced into the game, as well as the fact that blocks and deflections just in general play a larger role in fights. Reroute also got nerfed because of the lower overall HP and the difficulty of investing in the stat. Blood shield's damage penalty also doesn't affect reroute. There's also the point of passive armor gives the opponent more rage, of which they can then use to penetrate the passive armor. In most of my fights, I heal between 130-150 HP, and then rage infernal android at the end for 60+ damage against tanks. However, reroute is also easy to manipulate in the fact that EP removers totally break it and I'm only benefiting off of the passive since I can heal massive amounts of HP per turn. TLMs also lack offensive capabilities, such as the fact that their ultimate skill (surgical strike) most of the time doesn't do over 30 damage, even when I have more than 100 tech. Pretty much the only attack I have that can hit more than 20 on a focus/tank opponent is my bot. Given that a debuff which I can't counter (smoke) is used on me then followed through with physical attacks, the opponent can actually negate about 40% of the damage I do to them per turn, plus I have to spend a turn healing and they don't. Blood lust also can have still have great effects at level 6 (23%), whereas mineral armor pretty much only has a significant effect if used at level 8+.

Epic	Post #: 33

3/8/2013 22:07:05

master x guardian
Member

Excellent point about Blood Lust's superiority to Mineral Armor. I do agree. I had almost forgotten one of my biggest points about Frenzy which is that it can be blocked whereas the effects of Blood Lust are far harder to negate.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 34

3/12/2013 9:08:16

Bloodpact
Member

Be hardcore if frenzy was like an unblock able bite move : ]. +6 energy at all levels.

Would only agree to it being usable with sword if they replaced stun grenade with maul.
Orrrrr using a club would be pointless. [ Why should I use a weapon with less stats and dmg now?? ]

Option 3: Base increase in % dmg > hp

Epic	Post #: 35

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