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4/15/2013 15:58:26   
goldslayer1
Member

so i been suggesting custom "classes" instead of having fixed skill trees.
the reasons behind this are simple. more versatility in builds, more diversity, more creativeness. and a better way for the devs to introduce skills into the game without needing to make a new class.

the idea is to allow players to choose their own skill tree.
however there are limitations, so skills like bloodlust, reroute, mineral/plasma armor wont be in the same skill tree.
putting skills into categories would help with limiting some combinations like the one above.

heres a list of suggested categories.

Passives: 1
Mineral Armor
Plasma Armor
Hybrid Armor
Bloodlust
Reroute

Sub Passives: 1
Shadow Arts
Deadly aim
Adrenaline

Ultimates: 1
Massacre
Super Charge
Surgical Strike

HP: 1
Field Medic
Frenzy

EP: 1
EMP
Atom Smasher
Static Charge
Assimilation

Stuns: 1
Maul
Overload
Plasma Grenade
Stun Grenade

Buffs 2
Technician
Reflex
Field Commander
Blood Commander
Energy Shield
Defense Matrix
Bloodshield

Nerfs: 1
Smokescreen
Malfunction
Intimidate

Poisons: 1
Toxic Grenade
Venom Strike

Multis: 1
Artillery Strike
Plasma Rain
Multishot

Melee Attacks: 1
Berzerker
Double Strike
Cheapshot
Bludgeon

Ranged Attacks: 1
Fireball
Plasma Cannon
Bunker Buster
Plasma Bolt

NOTE: there are 12 categories, and only 11 slots in your skill tree (Field Medic will be default for all skill trees) so you can only pick 11 of these. the "1" next to each categories means how many skills from this category you can get.

so as you can see this would give players much more customization in builds.
it would also allow the devs to put in new skills into the game without needing to make new "classes"
as they could simply put it into one of the categories above (or make a new type of category) and players can pick from these.

all players at all levels should be able to pick their entire skill tree and skill positioning.
after that is done, stats requirements and skill points still apply.

as for what to do about new players who dont know about the game? keep the current "classes", but let new players pick those as "default" skill trees. once they get enough experience (which can be at any lvl) they can decide if they want to customize their skill tree.

I understand there are balance concerns, but quite frankly, i dont think it will be worse than what we have now. while we would be getting much more customization in builds. i was even looking at the idea of lowering the amount of skills each skill tree has, since it would be fully custom.

as for Claws/Clubs/Staffs and Swords
skills that are "class" specific will remain specific.
so plasma bolt could be used with a maul, claws and staffs. but not with a sword.

think of the claws/clubs/staffs as specialty weapons. while the sword being the common rout in weapons.

also what if some categories allowed Duplicate skills?
for example melee/range attacks categories, what if they allowed you to get 2 of the same skill?

lets take berzerker for instance.
what if you could get 2 berzerkers in your skill tree?
keep in mind a however that they would be 2 separate skills, so you would need to invest skill points into each one to use it. (this would include more energy as well)

EDIT 1: changed some categories and skills around.
created Melee category (blockables)
and Ranged Category (unblockables)

switched the name from EP drainers to EP, and added Static Charge and Assimilation to EP.
removed the shields category and added them to buffs. also added blood shield to buffs.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 4/15/2013 23:09:20 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 1
4/15/2013 16:11:44   
STRUT MY MUTT
Member

Would there still be classes? Or just styles and hairdo's?

Post #: 2
4/15/2013 16:14:15   
Cookielord12
Member

Where did Assimilation go?
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 3
4/15/2013 16:16:09   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

Would there still be classes?


sort of, they would be known as Default skill trees for which new players can choose from. so that they can get experience with the game.

@cookie
its in active passives.
along with Static charge and bloodshield.
AQW Epic  Post #: 4
4/15/2013 16:17:09   
Cookielord12
Member

It's more of a EP drainer though?

Also, I think that the classes could be worked into this. If I was a Mage, from the stun section I could only choose Overload, Mercs get Maul and Hunters get Grenades, so there are still certain skill that are locked to a class, so customization would be there, but class specific skills would be also.

On the other hand, another skill like the buffs could be customized so that DM could be used by any class.

< Message edited by Cookielord12 -- 4/15/2013 16:22:43 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 5
4/15/2013 16:18:29   
goldslayer1
Member

@cookie
EP drainers cost energy. assimilation is free.

and assimilation atm also gives u back energy.
its a mix of both i guess.
AQW Epic  Post #: 6
4/15/2013 16:31:36   
Mother1
Member

Where is blood shield? Even though it takes health to use it is still a shield.
Epic  Post #: 7
4/15/2013 16:33:24   
Cookielord12
Member

Also in actives.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 8
4/15/2013 16:33:39   
goldslayer1
Member

@mother1
in the Actives category. below sub passives.
AQW Epic  Post #: 9
4/15/2013 16:49:43   
Lord GaGa
Member

Lush idea but it's not gonna happen :/
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 10
4/15/2013 17:01:46   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

Also, I think that the classes could be worked into this. If I was a Mage, from the stun section I could only choose Overload, Mercs get Maul and Hunters get Grenades, so there are still certain skill that are locked to a class, so customization would be there, but class specific skills would be also.

On the other hand, another skill like the buffs could be customized so that DM could be used by any class.


im not sure about having locked skills.
locking the skills would limit the build creativity.

for example, if im a "Mage" and i want a support build, overload doesn't really help me in a support build.
locking skills would be hindering build creativity if someday the devs decide to add new skills. like a stun where the damage is based on support, instead of dex or tech like most of the other stuns.

for example if im a tank
a skill like berserker wouldn't help me as much as one like plasma bolt which works on a defensive stat.
so you would be able to do whatever type build you want, and pick the skills best suited for your build (within the limits)

think of it like being a support BH, smokescreen isn't so good on a full support build. malf/intimidate on the other hand would be better.

EDIT: added a little extra in the OP
quote:

as for Claws/Clubs/Staffs and Swords
skills that are "class" specific will remain specific.
so plasma bolt could be used with a maul, claws and staffs. but not with a sword.

think of the claws/clubs/staffs as specialty weapons. while the sword being the common rout in weapons.


< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 4/15/2013 17:17:04 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 11
4/15/2013 19:41:04   
Sipping Cider
Member

The problem with this is abilities within the categories are not yet balanced. Blood lust dominates the passives at high levels and plasma bolt beats all the other high damage attacks (specifically fire bolt). These are the two most unbalanced abilities I can think of, but over all some abilities are just plain better than others.

Still, this is a brilliant idea and I would support it 100% if the abilities were more balanced.
Epic  Post #: 12
4/15/2013 20:53:16   
Stabilis
Member

What I admire about this is that it proves (if ever a problem) certain SKILLS will be not be balanced instead of CLASSES and that is the most fair assessment you are ever going to get. Supported as a whole, some parts need to change though.

FIXES: "actives" is not a category, those are simply the skills that have to be clicked to use. By "specials" I am sure you mean "ultimate". Because of the lack of a niche for Static Charge (and Assimilation), it is recommended that you alter "EP Drainers" to "EP", which then becomes a catch-all for any skill-energy based moves. It is easier to merge "buffs" and "shields" into buffs and say you can have 2 (or more) of those skills. We call them "debuffs" but that means you are negating a buff which is usually not logical, "nerf" is most accepted. It is difficult to group attacks by damage with "high" and "low" attacks, what is to say Bludgeon or Double Strike is not a high attack? Instead it is easier to divvy attacks by either being "melee" or "ranged". Now that everything that needs to be removed is removed, this is where the removed skills need to be re-added: Static Charge and Assimilation to "EP". Blood Shield and Energy Shield and Defense Matrix to "buffs". Melee skills to "melee" and non-melee (ranged) skills to "ranged".
AQ Epic  Post #: 13
4/15/2013 21:01:25   
King Helios
Member

Massacre + Berzerker + Bloodlust + Adrenaline.


Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwww yea!

Some combos could become OP, but still supported.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 14
4/15/2013 21:10:51   
NDB
Member

^How can you get that many skill points and that much energy????
Epic  Post #: 15
4/15/2013 21:30:15   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

FIXES: "actives" is not a category, those are simply the skills that have to be clicked to use. By "specials" I am sure you mean "ultimate". Because of the lack of a niche for Static Charge (and Assimilation), it is recommended that you alter "EP Drainers" to "EP", which then becomes a catch-all for any skill-energy based moves. It is easier to merge "buffs" and "shields" into buffs and say you can have 2 (or more) of those skills. We call them "debuffs" but that means you are negating a buff which is usually not logical, "nerf" is most accepted. It is difficult to group attacks by damage with "high" and "low" attacks, what is to say Bludgeon or Double Strike is not a high attack? Instead it is easier to divvy attacks by either being "melee" or "ranged". Now that everything that needs to be removed is removed, this is where the removed skills need to be re-added: Static Charge and Assimilation to "EP". Blood Shield and Energy Shield and Defense Matrix to "buffs". Melee skills to "melee" and non-melee (ranged) skills to "ranged"

u make some good points.

there would still need to be a decision on categories.

and as for bludgeon and double strike, i labelled them under "low" damage because of their EP cost and damage as compared to skills like plasma bolt and berzerker.


quote:

The problem with this is abilities within the categories are not yet balanced. Blood lust dominates the passives at high levels and plasma bolt beats all the other high damage attacks (specifically fire bolt). These are the two most unbalanced abilities I can think of, but over all some abilities are just plain better than others.

Still, this is a brilliant idea and I would support it 100% if the abilities were more balanced.


the issue with bloodlust is that its based on full offense. unlike reroute where u get nothing if the enemy doesn't attack.
add the 5 focus tanking we have now and thats why bloodlust is dominating.

the builds u see now are high smoke mid EMPs focus builds. and usually some core (specially azrael) to throw in the mix.

but yes this proves that the skills themselves aren't really balanced. so how can we have balance on classes? (dont bother answering lol)

@NBD
precisely, i know some will come out and make excuses for some "OP" combo, but the truth is they disregard the requirements for the skills, stats, and energy for the attacks.

not to mention that massacre wouldn't be that strong if u didn't have a debuff (or nerf)
thats already more energy needed and skill points.


Edit: @Depressed Void
actually now that u got me thinking about that, what if some categories allowed their skills to be duplicated?

for example the ranged/melee attacks, stuns, Etc
by this i mean like having for example

2 berzerkers in ur in skill tree?
or 2 overloads.

now these would be considered separate, so u would need to invest skill points into both if u wanted them equal.
so making 1 berzerker max, does NOT mean the 2nd one is maxed. u still need to invest another 10 for a 2nd max. and thats 20 skill points and 90 energy

this could add a whole new element to build creativity.

EDIT: you know what, imma update the OP. OP Updated.
whoops double post.



added more to the OP

quote:

also what if some categories allowed Duplicate skills?
for example melee/range attacks categories, what if they allowed you to get 2 of the same skill?

lets take berzerker for instance.
what if you could get 2 berzerkers in your skill tree?
keep in mind a however that they would be 2 separate skills, so you would need to invest skill points into each one to use it. (this would include more energy as well)


< Message edited by Mecha Mario -- 4/16/2013 6:11:48 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 16
4/15/2013 23:25:33   
Sipping Cider
Member

quote:

(Field Medic will be default for all skill trees)


quote:

HP: 1
Field Medic
Frenzy


This confuses me a bit. Does this mean you can have up to 2 field medics in one tree? And why would anyone ever pick Frenzy over Field Medic?
Epic  Post #: 17
4/15/2013 23:28:17   
goldslayer1
Member

@sipping
well actually its just more of an idea and looking for some opinions.

quote:

also what if some categories allowed Duplicate skills?
for example melee/range attacks categories, what if they allowed you to get 2 of the same skill?

lets take berzerker for instance.
what if you could get 2 berzerkers in your skill tree?
keep in mind a however that they would be 2 separate skills, so you would need to invest skill points into each one to use it. (this would include more energy as well)


what if field medic was allowed to be duplicated? (so its 2 field medics)
however each would still be separate skills and thus require their own skill points.

just looking for opinions on duplicate skills.
AQW Epic  Post #: 18
4/15/2013 23:44:20   
Stabilis
Member

Duplication itself is not initially worrying, but when it matters, it matters with cooldowns. Normally I would have to wait 3 turns for a level 5 Berzerker to cool off, limiting the damage capacity to whatever damage it is divided by 4. But with 2 level 5 Berzerkers, I could blitz whatever damage it does in 5 (actually 4 but each Berzerker uses a turn) turns equal to:

Berzerker damage times 2 every 4 turns.

So in the long periods of time, it would be a joke, not even a balance problem because of the upkeep costs. But players often design their attacks to explode as soon as possible so expect the duplicate attacks to be hammered right away.

A possible solution to this is to increase the warmups of duplicate skills when players do have duplicate skills.
AQ Epic  Post #: 19
4/15/2013 23:55:21   
goldslayer1
Member

@depress
actually, adding a warm up would only delay the damage, and in fact would most likely make it worse, since the 2nd berserker would most likely be right around the time ur rage comes. and players use their stronger attacks on rage.

this is why u dont see ultimates stacking with rage.
they are too strong to be used early, and would be extremely OP on rage.
although it would be counter-able easily with an EP drainer.

but yeah it doesn't worry me much either thats why i was throwing the idea out there.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 4/16/2013 0:01:12 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 20
4/16/2013 4:06:14   
estehmanisdinginnn
Member

Smoke + Bunk + BL o.O

< Message edited by estehmanisdinginnn -- 4/16/2013 8:50:55 >
Epic  Post #: 21
4/16/2013 9:02:39   
Necromantres
Member

Well that's a hell of an idea...Supported
Epic  Post #: 22
4/16/2013 9:48:48   
EpicIsEpic
Member

SUPPORTED MORE DIVERSITY!
Post #: 23
4/17/2013 0:21:08   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 First off, animations will be a problem. You can't do Overload with claws. Custom trees would require re-animating every class specific skill so they can be used with any other class specific weapon.

Second off, Occam's Razor. Or, keep it simple. They scrapped Dead Battery because it was too complex. Removing every class, creating the custom skill tree interface, and then having all these limitations and rules is a little too complex for the new player. I live by a simple guideline. "If you want to propose a change but it requires several limitations and restrictions to make it balanced, it's not worth the effort." This doesn't mean it can't have any limitations at all, because a few are necessary. But after so many it just becomes pointless.

Third off, small details. Is this free? How do we change out skills? What happens if one of the current classes goes against the current limitations, do they no longer get to battle or do they just get to break the rules set?

Fourth off, synergy. Smoke+Technician+Mineral Armor+DA. Good physical defense, good tech boost, good way to increase damage and accuracy and then even more damage. Then throw in things like Berzerker and Frenzy and it gets worse. Not to mention I could throw in Energy Shield to cover my tech as well.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 24
4/17/2013 0:34:45   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

First off, animations will be a problem. You can't do Overload with claws. Custom trees would require re-animating every class specific skill so they can be used with any other class specific weapon.

im sure this can still be done.

quote:

Second off, Occam's Razor. Or, keep it simple. They scrapped Dead Battery because it was too complex. Removing every class, creating the custom skill tree interface, and then having all these limitations and rules is a little too complex for the new player. I live by a simple guideline. "If you want to propose a change but it requires several limitations and restrictions to make it balanced, it's not worth the effort." This doesn't mean it can't have any limitations at all, because a few are necessary. But after so many it just becomes pointless.


shouldn't be that hard to understand if they implement this right.

think of it as picking 1 skill from each type (passives, attacks, EP, etc)


quote:

Third off, small details. Is this free? How do we change out skills? What happens if one of the current classes goes against the current limitations, do they no longer get to battle or do they just get to break the rules set?

like the current "!" that pops up when a balance changes comes, and wont let u battle unless u change ur build.

i would not call these rules, but rather skill types.


quote:

Fourth off, synergy. Smoke+Technician+Mineral Armor+DA. Good physical defense, good tech boost, good way to increase damage and accuracy and then even more damage. Then throw in things like Berzerker and Frenzy and it gets worse. Not to mention I could throw in Energy Shield to cover my tech as well.


all of which require skill points and energy. by having mineral armor, you dont have reroute.
i dont think combos shouldn't be an issue when you can make many more to counter these. (like an EMP and malf)

although thats kind of the point of custom skilltrees. to get the skills best needed for your type of playing.
whether its tanking, or damage. for example, Dex builds are no good on TLM. they only have 1 dex based move. and it sucks.

now do you prefer custom skill trees where you can let your knowledge of the game shine to create builds, or do you want predetermined skill trees like we have now? which mostly restrict you on creativity and what builds you can make.
AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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