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Slight Focus buff

 
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5/19/2013 17:25:53   
omega fighter
Member

Focus was rebuffed some time ago, but i think it was brought down too much

i thought too bring it up to 5 dmg per focus level

Level 1- 5 dmg
Level 2- 10 dmg
Level 3- 15 dmg
Level 4- 20 dmg
Level 5- 25 dmg

< Message edited by omega fighter -- 5/20/2013 16:41:20 >
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 1
5/19/2013 17:36:30   
Xendran
Member

4 is a bit to weak, 5 is too strong, weapon damage is too high which makes bots seem weaker than they should be.
The sweet spot is 4.33 but EDs numbers are too small to allow for that.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 2
5/20/2013 14:58:18   
omega fighter
Member

How is 5 too strong?
robots are very expensive and have stat requirements if you want it to do
enough dmg
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 3
5/20/2013 15:04:20   
Ranloth
Banned


Price justifies the power. I don't see how it's relevant to the balance. Stat requirement? Lolno. More like improves with stats at certain range. Requirement means you have to meet certain amount to use it.
AQ Epic  Post #: 4
5/20/2013 15:23:26   
omega fighter
Member

What I'm saying is that you have to put 45 stat points for everything if you want decent dmg
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 5
5/20/2013 15:27:12   
Ranloth
Banned


Also wrong. As Focus 4 since prior to the change of Focus and after it, I still do quite well thanks to investing my stat points into HP and +1 Def and Res (4-5 stat points each). With Casters having Focus 1 at most, you can spam Technology and get numbers very close to that of Focus 4 + have powerful skills and defence.
AQ Epic  Post #: 6
5/20/2013 16:06:45   
omega fighter
Member

well the tech spam also does not do as much dmg as focus
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 7
5/20/2013 16:14:14   
Ranloth
Banned


Focus 5 = +20 damage & Focus 4 = +16 damage & Focus 1 = +4
IA = +15 damage
Robot Technology Bonus at 134 Tech = 21-25 & at 85 Tech = 14-18


Using Focus 1 Caster with 134 Tech and IA:
21-25 +15 +4 = 40-45

Using Focus 4 with 85 Tech:
14-18 +15 +16 = 45-48

Using Focus 5 with 85 Tech:
14-18 +15 +20 = 49-53


I've used 85 Tech since it's about average for Focus 5 builds (and Focus 4, usually) & 135 Tech since that's around the number of Tech that Casters tend to have. Now you tell me it's not as much damage as with Focus. :| You're looking at serious Tech abuse with moderate Dex thus very tanky defences, poor weapon offence but skills are doing great damage. Right. Not as much damage.

Focus should've been made into 'Focus x 5' and Robot Technology Bonus adjusted instead (to that of slower progression) which would deal with Tech abusers + mere Lvl 1 Focus. Right now, it's still abuseable and Focus doesn't need a buff. It's fine as it is now, really. If you find your Bot too weak for your liking, don't use it and try a different build.
AQ Epic  Post #: 8
5/20/2013 16:23:56   
omega fighter
Member

how could you use level 5 focus and 85 tech theres not enough stat points
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 9
5/20/2013 16:28:28   
Ranloth
Banned


It's called stat bonuses from items? Looking at 2 versions of my Focus 5 - one with 90'ish HP and over 100 HP - I had 80 and 86 Tech on respectable builds. And mid 70s for Dex. That's total. With Focus 4, I've also had 86 Tech and 72 Dex + a bit more HP than my usual Focus 5 build.
AQ Epic  Post #: 10
5/20/2013 16:41:05   
omega fighter
Member

get me a snapshot and i only want 1 extra not going back to insane 6

< Message edited by omega fighter -- 5/20/2013 16:43:56 >
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 11
5/20/2013 16:47:11   
Ranloth
Banned


No? Sharing builds is the last thing I want to do. Just do the math yourself.. IIRC, you can get Focus 5 at Lvl 28 with base HP. Based on this guide - http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=21268164 - I get +71 stat points from Lvl 35 items (or +76 if using a Sword) so you can easily get to 86 Tech with that. 71 - 45 = 26 <- all I need to get to 86 Tech & I still have +26 stat points left (+31 with a Sword). Not mentioning your own stats.

You should've had data prepared to prove your point. It's crucial to back it up with evidence.
AQ Epic  Post #: 12
5/20/2013 16:56:22   
Stabilis
Member

Omega,

34 level-ups at 4 stat points each, 136 stat points. Up to 32 item stat points onto a stat. Focus 5 costs 45 stat points to each of the 4 basic stats. All classes have a mean of 20 stat points per stat. Therefore each stat needs 25 stat points to reach 45 points. (45-20) * 4 is 100. So 136 - 100 leaves you with Focus 5 and 36 stat points to allocate wherever. The maximum Technology score is 45 + 36 + 32 which is 113 Technology given that all of this information is 100% true.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 5/20/2013 16:58:45 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 13
5/20/2013 18:09:43   
vordalthe2nd
Member

omega
i 100% agree with u. why take level 5 focus and lower it 10 points, all it does is make sure that the bot is not used as much. this applies mostly to calling in the robot to attack not its special attack.

I also totally agree with your rebuff option being level 5- 25 dmg which goes perfectly with the plus 3 on its initial damage
Post #: 14
5/20/2013 18:27:43   
Ranloth
Banned


No. The nerf was justified and you say rebuff is a viable option because the damage went down. Robots ended up dealing more damage than normal weapons at much lower Tech (and Focus). You had to have around 130'ish Str/Support to get such damage as opposed to Robot with moderate Tech (around 80) and Focus 5. Not mentioning Focus gave you much better defence since you weren't abusing.

Also, Focus went down by -10 and Robot damage was bumped up by +3 so the difference is -7 less damage at Focus 5. With Focus 4, it goes down to -5 less damage, etc.
AQ Epic  Post #: 15
5/20/2013 18:51:25   
Mother1
Member

@ trans

And why was this happening? Because everything else before Focus was nerfed into the ground. While I am not for this buff myself, Omega has become nothing more then one huge nerf. The staff and mods even admitted in some posts that they nerf instead of buff because it is easier to do and in all honestly them taking the easy way out is sucking all the fun out of the game.

I know the rule of the game is to adapt or die, but as it stands right now trans we are being punished for adapting since every time someone finds a creative build a group of people come here making threads complaining about it until the staff comes to nerf it even when several players can prove it isn't OP.
Epic  Post #: 16
5/20/2013 19:01:23   
Ranloth
Banned


You miss the point where overbuffing renders defence and HP even more useless & luck impact even greater due to high offence and awful defence (including HP). Longer battles means the luck's impact can be spread out over the course of the battle instead of the opposite.

Huge nerf? Sure. Did you perhaps.. erm.. think it's because of the lack of enhancements? It's easier to balance stuff than before. Prior to Omega, you had F2P with little to no enhancements and Varium players with fully enhanced equipment. Difference in stats available for F2P and Varium was.. was it 50-60 more stats? Each nerf in Delta was mostly aimed at Varium players who could easily abuse things whilst F2P took the beating and couldn't do much. Now, both are equal and it's easier to balance it for everyone rather than have a nerf target one group and affect another.

Furthermore, if you nerf everything and make things equal, what difference would it make if you buffed everything and made it equal? Variety would exist and cease to exist in either of the scenarios since people would find something to abuse. But with buffing, it's much harder since you must buff everything and likely get yourself into even bigger mess. I am sure that if buffing was done then players would say the opposite and blame Devs as much for messing up with buffs - see Assimilation + people's comments during the initial buff - and say that they cannot do anything properly. Whilst bunch of other players would want nerfs. Now... which one causes more problems - nerfing or buffing? What makes players happy - nerfing or buffing? What's better for the game (efficiency wise as well) - nerfing or buffing? Spend more time on buffing, mess it up and have to buff other things or go back to nerfs OR just nerf and try to reduce luck's impact on the battle.

Lastly, IA was nerfed many times yet people still wanted more and more was given. IA has been one huge nerf yet people still use it. Omega has been a huge nerf yet people still play it. Some things have to be done and some things will result in a loss, this is obvious and Devs are very much aware of so. But with every choice comes a sacrifice that has to be made. You cannot expect everyone to like something and no one hating it. There will always be someone who doesn't like something. You cannot please everyone.
AQ Epic  Post #: 17
5/20/2013 19:28:54   
Mother1
Member

quote:

You miss the point where overbuffing renders defence and HP even more useless & luck impact even greater due to high offence and awful defence (including HP). Longer battles means the luck's impact can be spread out over the course of the battle instead of the opposite.


Ever hear of buffing up HP? That is one of the main reasons why all the other nerfs took place besides having less enhancements and stats. Before we could have builds with high health that weren't glass cannons with decent stats, and to top it all off all these builds that were nerfed into the ground now were actually more balanced than now.

Even with the removal of enhancements the nerf to HP was what hurt more than the lost of enhancements.

quote:

Huge nerf? Sure. Did you perhaps.. erm.. think it's because of the lack of enhancements? It's easier to balance stuff than before. Prior to Omega, you had F2P with little to no enhancements and Varium players with fully enhanced equipment. Difference in stats available for F2P and Varium was.. was it 50-60 more stats? Each nerf in Delta was mostly aimed at Varium players who could easily abuse things whilst F2P took the beating and couldn't do much. Now, both are equal and it's easier to balance it for everyone rather than have a nerf target one group and affect another.


If case you haven't forgotten they nerfed all items as well Trans not just removed enhancements. If it was just enhancements that is one thing, but items stats were nerfed even though the staff near the end of delta was making items equal in power to varium items. They also nerf HP which if we still had other builds would be able to complete better. It has been said several times in several threads.

quote:

Furthermore, if you nerf everything and make things equal, what difference would it make if you buffed everything and made it equal? Variety would exist and cease to exist in either of the scenarios since people would find something to abuse. But with buffing, it's much harder since you must buff everything and likely get yourself into even bigger mess. I am sure that if buffing was done then players would say the opposite and blame Devs as much for messing up with buffs - see Assimilation + people's comments during the initial buff - and say that they cannot do anything properly. Whilst bunch of other players would want nerfs. Now... which one causes more problems - nerfing or buffing? What makes players happy - nerfing or buffing? What's better for the game (efficiency wise as well) - nerfing or buffing? Spend more time on buffing, mess it up and have to buff other things or go back to nerfs OR just nerf and try to reduce luck's impact on the battle.


Trans as it stand now all the nerfs are doing is making something else that was balanced OP due to having the thing that keeps that build in check dealt with. Look at omega and how it started. Omega started by nerfing health, weapon stats and removing enhancements. Now because of this Strength got a massive buff due to less HP and defensive stats. Later on Strength was nerfed as well as the moves that work with it however thanks to this nerf and the new going first formula Support took it's place in being OP and for that week support was made OP. Next came the return of dimishing starts on strength and support which in turn made everything other then focus builds hurt. Next nerf was to focus since all the other nerfs made focus stand out.

As it shows Trans that is all these nerfs are doing. they aren't balancing the game they are nothing more then band aids being put over a wound that needs stitches. Now I could understand if they actually nerfed something and it actually balanced the game but as stated before all they are doing is making something that wasn't OP before OP because they are destroying counters because some people just can't adapt. It is them trying to please the few minority in the forums here that is causing those who can adapt to suffer Trans.

quote:

Lastly, IA was nerfed many times yet people still wanted more and more was given. IA has been one huge nerf yet people still use it. Omega has been a huge nerf yet people still play it. Some things have to be done and some things will result in a loss, this is obvious and Devs are very much aware of so. But with every choice comes a sacrifice that has to be made. You cannot expect everyone to like something and no one hating it. There will always be someone who doesn't like something. You cannot please everyone.


Oh please trans that bot has been OP from the start. It wasn't properly tested, and it was thrown upon us. If this bot was properly tested they would have never even put it into the game period regardless if it was a spoil of war. Also why to people still use it? Because it is out of all the bot the one that can be abused the hardest trans not to mention back in delta non variums only has 3 choices out of 8 bots and two of them were Defensive bots and even with the adding to variety with bots in omega the infernal android is extremely cheap in comparison to the other bots and in vastly more powerful them (special wise)
Epic  Post #: 18
5/20/2013 20:04:15   
toopygoo
Member

why dont they make support not jump to levels, but make it like 20% of your lowest stat. as long as it is past a certain value (e.g. 25 i think it is) this would allow people who really want a big focus build to be able to surpass the limit of 20, at the cost of lowering other stats. i think 20 is fine for most other builds out there, but if you'd like to go past it, id say you should be able to
AQW Epic  Post #: 19
5/21/2013 16:47:45   
omega fighter
Member

ok lets make this less confusing
just say if you support or not
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 20
5/21/2013 16:52:50   
Xendran
Member

quote:


just say if you support or not


This is probably one of the exact reasons the devs don't read the balance/suggestion forums. Support/Not Support is totally useless if there are no reasons given.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 5/21/2013 16:53:24 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 21
5/21/2013 17:02:34   
Mother1
Member

@ Omega

I remember Goony saying that Rabble was originally going to do this when he was going to nerf focus. However Goony in another post made the push for it to go down to +4 instead of +5 since it would have been only a 2 point difference in power with the robot buff instead of the 7 point one we have now.
Epic  Post #: 22
5/21/2013 17:10:56   
Xendran
Member

They could make this change and then lower all bot damage by 5 from what it currently is if they want to keep bot damage the same but make focus scale more steeply.
I do agree that focus as a stat needs a buff (because i can get the same bot damage at 4 focus as i can at 5, and i only have 2 less damage at 3 than i would at 5), but the actual damage output of robots does not.


EDIT: Posts like this are exactly the reason why you don't only want 'support/not spuport' by the way. It expands on the idea and offers new ways of looking at it, which is what you want when discussing balance and features.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 5/21/2013 17:13:52 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 23
5/21/2013 17:35:14   
omega fighter
Member

its just that will the focus debuff my robot does less dmg than my aux
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 24
5/21/2013 17:36:51   
Xendran
Member

I don't see why that's bad. Robots were never meant to be the end-all of damage.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 25
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