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RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread

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9/22/2014 15:10:41   
kingyugi4567
Member

time to go kill undead and have warcry of the paladin playing on repeat
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 226
9/22/2014 16:36:48   
Azan
Member

Well, I don't have anything to say about the new paladin except this... It's Awesome. So Awesome it deserved a capital A. This is the first time I pulverize the higher levels of the Doomcrawler in less than 6 turns with a tier 2 class.
Post #: 227
9/22/2014 17:39:16   
Chaosweaver Amon
Friendly!


 Well to test it I beat the extreme hard mode mega driller without an energy weapon. Took me a while, but I still did it! That passive heal proved indeed to be useful for tanking it out; and yet it had some fantastic offensive light skills. All I'll say is that I'm looking forward to the new art to go with it!
DF  Post #: 228
9/22/2014 18:12:29   
Lord Ferno
Member

I always like seeing a class being so unique and able to demolish a certain kind of foe.... paladin really is a tier 3 vs undead and a seemingly high (at least) tier 2 against other foes.
Post #: 229
9/22/2014 19:24:04   
Aj Gost
Member

Hey Ash, this is my analysis based on testing and information provided by you.


Okay so after using each class for 12 hours in a variety of quests and against numerous enemies (random and undead) I came to the conclusion that Pally/Pyro might possibly be in need of a tweak or two. My saying this is based on my thinking that that Paladin, a T2 is either more powerful than or at least a bit to comparable to the likes of the Pyromancer T3 Dragon Coin/Paid For class. Powerful mostly in terms of healing and mana regen that is. (Ive also got analysis which would lead to suggest one might consider looking at the fact that Pally can keep a constant buff AND debuff going at the same time for little mana and without needing to take damageless turns.) :P I use Pyro for comparison because as a T3 and Dragon Coin/Paid For class is supposed to be straight up better than any T2.


All testing was done with my 2nd Main character specced as follows:
Level 62 Warrior
96END(90Stat Point+6wep bonus) gives a total of exactly 1800HP
121WIS(115Stat Point+6wep Bonus) gives a total of exactly 1615MP

Char was equipped only with a lvl 60 Necrotic Sword of Doom which has a damage range of 76-82. All calculations done for moves which use a percentage of the weapons damage range used the number 82.


First up is Pyromancer.

Pyromancer has 3 moves which are capable of healing the player directly. They are as follow: Rebirth, Warmth, and Malcifer

Rebirth has a 15 turn charge up and a 30 turn cooldown. It heals me for a potential 1800HP and a potential 1615MP for 0 Mana.

Warmth is another dual boost move. Warmth heals for 300% weapon max damage and gives back 100% max weapon damage in mana and as such gives me back 246HP and 82MP. It has a 16 turn cooldown. It costs 0 mana.

Malcifer is Pyro's Last healing move but it is also a damage dealer and applies a 25% weakness to fire to the enemy for 5 turns. It heals for 100% of weapons damage and as such gives back 82HP. Upon use it is subject to a 10 turn cooldown. It costs 30MP and deals total 140%weapon damage to enemy.



Now for Paladin.

Pally has 3 moves used to heal hp directly(Bless, G.Heal, and Seal) and 1 move to heal mana directly(Mana Regen). it also has the Inner Glow HOT Passive ability.

Bless is Pally's first direct heal. It deals 100%weapon damage(to non undead) and heals for 7% of max hp. For me it gives back 126HP on strike. It has a 9 turn cooldown and costs 25MP.

Next is G.Heal. Heal is a simple direct heal. It heals for 15% of whatever your max HP is.(in my testing I actually calculated it to be closer to 16.3% but I trust your notes Ash) For me, it gives back 294HP. It has a 14 turn cooldown and costs 35MP.

Last for the direct heals is Seal. Seal is comparable to Rebirth in that it offers a full hp heal(for me 1800hp) but it comes at the "cost" of draining all MP(for me 1615MP). It costs 25MP, has a 14(?) turn charge up and a 20 turn cooldown.



These next two are where I believe the balance between Pally, a T2 class, and Pyro, a T3 class, is kind of thrown a bit out of whack.


Pally has access to a direct Mana Regen skill(Which Ash even said it shouldn't have for one reason or another). It gives back 11% of your total stock of mana(for me 178MP). It has 0 cost and has a 6 TURN COOLDOWN.


The last ability is Inner Glow, Pally's Passive as one of the Necropolois Trio. Inner Glow is a Battlewide(I did experience it stopping its healing on around my 30th turn every time however) HOT(heal over time) ability. It uses the formula ((max HP)*(Pally Charge*.015)*.1) ROUNDED with each skill use counting as an addition to the charge maxing out at 20. Over the 20 turns it takes to make it out(stopping at 54HP per turn) It healed me a total of 609HP. Roughly amounting to a 33% heal over 20turns, turning into a 66%(1218HP) heal over successive 20 turn intervals. It costs 0 MP.


Conclusions: As far as pure staying power goes, Pally beats Pyro in every way. Pally's heals will almost always be more powerful than Pyro's because they work based on the %of HP or MP where the latter uses weapon damage to calculate heals. In fact this healing disparity can only get larger with level as high END investment(say a total of 1700+HP) will be able to always trump any weapon damage based heals because currently the highest max base damage weapons(for level EIGHTIES) still only have a base damage of around 90-100.% weapon damage heals(aka Warmth and Malcifer)for all other levels(with any meaningful investment into END) will always fall beneath the HP% based heal of the pally making Pyro's direct heal skills more effective than the T3 Pyro's.


What throws this disparity out of balance further is the likes of the Pally's mana regen which is HANDS DOWN superior to that of the Pyro and possibly unbalanced in general because of how it allows the Paladin to function. A flat 11%MP gain based on overall mana poolis fine but when it's on a 6 turn cooldown it becomes a bit broken. Compare that to the Pyro's MP regen skill which allows for, even in the hands a level 80 player with a powerful wep, only around 90-100MP regen every 16 turns and you can see that Pally's is just a bit toooo spammable.


Add in the fact that Pally's skillset has no combination of moves which can spend more than about 140MP over the 6 turns it takes to get another 11% MP back and you might begin to see my issue a bit more. Even on relatively low WIS builds the Pally's mana regen ability is still too powerful for how spammable it is specifically compared to the likes of Pyro's modest MP regening. The Inner Glow passive also has absolutely massive healing potential over the course of a long battle (which costs 0 MP and is ALWAYS ON), which trumps anything Pyro has to offer....... except Rebirth right?


Well in my analysis not really, Pally's Seal trumps that as well because of how the game works and his powerful, spammable mana regen.

Mana is not lost with HP in a 1:1 ratio. I spend 25 in a turn to use a skill and might turn around and lose 50-300HP the next turn. This means I run out of HP much more quickly than MP and as such Pyro's rebirth ends up being a move which heals me fully and kinda just tops of my MP as well. The idea that Pally's Seal kind of "gimps his mana" is a nice one but relatively untrue based on the power of his mana regen and how it scales ridiculously well with WIS. One could easily use Seal to get their health back and then follow right up with Mana Regen and because none of Pally's skills can exhaust mana fast enough, walk out with a mana profit by the time it takes its regen to cooldown. All the while being given a passive heal which is actually extremely powerful.


Sorry to wall of text you guys like that. Ive never posted something like this before but I fell strongly about this because I feel, and further research shows, that Pally's strengths are a bit too in line with a T3's or Pyro's are a bit to inline with a T2's. This analysis also takes into account the fact that pyro has one more stun(a 1 turn one though) than Pally. I believe that is MORE than compensated for by Inner Glow however.


Thanks for any feedback you might have on this data and analysis.
Post #: 230
9/23/2014 0:42:02   
Anra
Member

Hi Ash
I found an odd issue: Greater Heal remove the passive heal, if it's maxed. However I still get the message: "Your Inner Light is a beacon of your power!". Could it be as a result that the passive heal is a DoT?

< Message edited by Anra -- 9/23/2014 0:44:24 >
Post #: 231
9/23/2014 2:58:22   
Drop_Bear
Member

Using the Paladin Armour was a real treat after the rebalance now that it is useful. The passive coming off does seem to be an issue in longer battles when using Seal of Salvation to full heal. The 20 turn cooldown on Seal of Salvation does make for an interesting combination with its mana restoring to create a situation where you can full heal every 20 turns with impunity though that's only really useful in extremely long boss battles. Otherwise a good class for long quests and comes into its own on monsters lacking elemental resists and performs beautifully against the undead like it should.
Post #: 232
9/23/2014 18:12:21   
NagisaXIkari
Member

Used the new Paladin against Extreme Doomcrawler and Extreme Noxus and it was unreal. Neither enemy could actually put a scratch on me.

Just thinking about it makes me tingly.
DF  Post #: 233
9/23/2014 18:37:04   
Ash
Member
quote:

I found an odd issue: Greater Heal remove the passive heal, if it's maxed. However I still get the message: "Your Inner Light is a beacon of your power!". Could it be as a result that the passive heal is a DoT?


It was. I had to do a little re-arranging inside the actual passive so now it doesn't totally clear it off. Cache Clear/Relog to pick up the fix.

Aj Gost - I'm not going to quote the entire thing for obvious reasons. Very well calculated out though.

If I were to totally remove the mana regen that would remove one of the core abilities that was part of the original one, that's the only reason it has it now. The cooldown though is off, I had fixed it in an earlier version and for whatever reason it reverted back to the lower one. Probably one of the uncountable times Flash crashed on me and I didn't save every few minutes like I usually do. (That's been causing quite a few of the issues with this class lately. >.<) That cooldown will be fixed, changed to 12 turns, in just a bit.

As for the total healing aspect. The full HP/MP heal is actually worth a bit more than you're letting on, mostly because since it's healing all your resources it counts far more than Seal does. I know testing it doesn't make it appear that way but the fact that it doesn't have any kind of down side to using it, beyond the cooldown, means that it would take away from any other healing that the class itself gets. That's most likely why it's got % of weapon damage healing not direct % total health like Pally. (It's a DC class so it would get to ignore a bit of that penalty but for some reason it's not) Seal costing all mana allows the class to have a bit more wiggle room in terms of what it can have as healing elsewhere. While you can still fight in a boss battle for a few turns before going totally out of mana with Pally, Pyro allows you to full recover and not worry about what you have to use next. You can continue your damage rotation without missing anything but that one turn, unlike Pally where you either need to drink your Potions like a crazy person and burn your MP heal just to make sure you can finish a battle if it's one of the stronger bosses.

Does that automatically make Pally better? No. They both do similar things which is why they appear similar. Pally also gets a damage boost because its skills are element locked, something that brings it closer to Pyro in terms of overall damage, plus the trigger makes it about equal. I don't want to really go messing with Pyro and changing it as that means I would have to then go in and tinker with every other DC class other than the already going to be SteamTank. I would also have some very upset people with me because that would mean KAA would get adjusted.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 234
9/23/2014 21:32:32   
Aj Gost
Member

Ash-


I appreciate your consideration of my analysis a lot and I think the Mana Regen cooldown was probably the only thing that may have needed a bit of a tweak. During my comparison of the two classes however Pyro's slightly lesser overall offensive power, because of Pyro's Malcifer and Enkindle cooldowns, was kind of a standout between the two classes. I know that takes a lot of other tweaks and balancing into account(Pyro is meant to be the least offensively powerful and most sustainability focused of the T3's after all) but the fact that Pally has the ability to keep its buff and it's debuff going indefinitely, given a good stock of Mana at least, and it is meant to be(i'd assume at least) the most sustainable of the T2's, that the lack of Pyro's ability to keep Malcifer and Enkindle going at the same time is perhaps a bit of an oversight given it's status as a T3. I feel that for such similar classes and the fact that Pyro is technically supposed to be slightly offensively better than Pally(at least V non Undead) then maybe Pyro having that capability as well wouldn't be too OP to consider?


I understand that you are very busy however and don't have time to answer every "This is too weak, BUFF IT!" people throw at you, so I would also be willing to do some Pyro Offense testing V Pally again(just since I can't help but draw parallels between them as similar classes :P) if you think that might be something worth looking into. I'm pretty sure you weren't the one who coded that class(?) though so I could understand if that might be difficult to implement. That would go in the appropriate Pyromancer Discussion Thread however of course if any form of testing were to be done :3


As for the likes of Pally however, I believe that with the adjusted cooldown time on Mana Regen the class is now excellently balanced. As a DA tester it gets my 100% OK at this point. I can find no flaws!


Good stuff as always though, and thanks for the hard work!
Post #: 235
9/23/2014 21:56:41   
Ash
Member


 I didn't code it no, Pyro was from before I came on as a bug fixer/coder. It's not that it's difficult to implement a fix, it's that I'm not sure I should for a variety of reasons.

If I buff Pyro a bit to make its healing a bit more like it should be, that's great and makes it stronger. I can do that without having to give any reasons for since no one would ever argue with a class getting a buff, right? What happens when someone pokes me about some hypothetical revamp or new class that gets a bit close to Entropy? Do I then have to mess with it too? People bought Entropy when it came out for its skills, which are in line with 9.0 standards just like Pyro. Do I then have to buff a 9.0 class, which is already balanced, because a class you didn't have to spend DC's on is close to it? It's a line I don't really want to cross mainly because it involves real money that's spent ONLY for that class. You bought those classes, which were balanced for 9.0, for how they were.

I'm fine with going in and buffing the oldest DC class because it was never made close to the new class standards, I'm VERY wary of touching any of the others because they were designed around the new standard and no one has had a problem with them because none of the older classes were working on the new standards. DC's are a shortcut, not a "this is always going to be stronger". I know DC classes are a bit higher on the list but they are still just a shortcut. You should be able to earn power that's close to it in game, which is what you can do now and will be able to do later as well.

< Message edited by Ash -- 9/23/2014 21:58:07 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 236
9/23/2014 22:31:23   
Aj Gost
Member

That's totally understandable when you put it like that I figure. The hard fact remains however; If something Y was balanced to be X better than everything else in the game, then as everything else in the game approaches Y in power, the amount X it is better then those other things should remain constant.

The value was put in at 100. Everything else at the time was a 50. Everything else is now a 75. 100 should , without fail, turn into 125 to maintain that balance between the classes and game. That logic is infallible and irrefutable in nature only for the very reason that real money transactions were made. Payments were made to get an advantage and asking for that adavantage to remain intact is not a bad thing. Heck, keeping that balance in tact could possibly serve to help you as people would want that advantage for themselves and then be more willing to pay to get it. "Why buy Pyro when Pally can do nearly the same job and I don't need to pay up?" That's a potentially harmful model. I don't think asking for a buff here or there based on that logic is unreasonable then.

What is unreasonable is asking you guys to do that change for a huuuuge variety of classes and shouldering all of the burden of the massive overhaul of balance and coding that logic would take to implement. :3

I 100% understand your apprehension towards beginning such a task and I won't even ask you to because I appreciate everything you're doing already. These matters take time and, even more so, manpower. I understand that so please don't take my post as whining lol. These revamps and updates were a looong time coming and are all being handled beautifully so I'll continue playing DF, supporting with DC purchases on occaison, and biding my time because I'm confident you guys are doing your best.

[ I had no intention of sounding mean or rude in this post by the way, I just love me some Dragonfable and feel that offering my thoughts is my duty as a player and supporter of the game. I really do appreciate the entirety of the DF staff and everything you guys do. Really :) ]
Post #: 237
9/24/2014 6:04:26   
Oddball
Member

.__.
Oh my. I'll uh.. I'll be right back.

SWEET MERCIFUL PALADIN

Out of the revamps so far, this has to be my favourite (We'll see when Friday rolls around :P) Pally now feels like a Paladin should with the ability to absolutely destroy undead with little-to-no problems *Looks at Hard mode Extreme Edgar*

Speaking of which.. I seem to get a scaled Artix guest on Artix vs The Undead with a bunch of new skills, and regular level 3 Artix in any other quest or when I invite him.. is that an accident or on purpose? ._.

Anyway, another amazing revamp Ash! And I eagerly await the next one ^^
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 238
9/24/2014 8:35:42   
Rorshach

The Question
(AdventureQuest)


 The Obvious
Class is definitely nice with all the skills kicked in to current standards, as well as a couple updated ones.

The Opinion
- Paladin's skills I would think, could have gone with more effects than general damage buff for the following skill: Spear of Light (2-hit, Good, 133%). Why does it do Good-damage though? Other than Pally's supposedly being of Good intentions (or Light ones...).
- It does have a damage and resist nerf at the enemy, as well as having a damage and darkness buff towards itself. For both, they are entirely useful for anything that is of creatures of Darkness which are also to be weak agaist Light. Which follows the Paladin armour.
- It has a good set of heals along with its passive, ensuring the survival of the player through a boss-fight (or in-betweens for heals and what-not).
- The blind is rather weak, given that it does only -25 against non-Undeads and it is ele-locked to Light. The rationale behind this, as I would speculate, is that it is like DS where it is meant for creatures of such, and for those that are non-creatures-of-such, it is less effective... I'll buy into that I guess.

Generally a good focused class, as with other classes that are the "Slaying" types, they are built for what they are meant to slay. Which makes them stand out more, given that for so long, those who've had the luxury of owning DmK and other damage-bursting DC armours, weren't given much of other options to choose from as it would always outclass the others. We should start seeing more of these (hopefully) in players' profile classes soon.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 239
9/24/2014 9:56:21   
mahasamatman
Member

Congratulations. The Paladin armor has finally become the tank it was always meant to be.

The Good Points:
The new Inner Light ability is really awesome.
The paladin is now a really good tank for the non-DA (who have no access to DL), and quite useful to DA holders, too.
It was an excellent improvement to transfer some of the offensive abilities to the non-DA side.
There is finally a decent stun, and a nerfed multi.
The fair heal & mana abilities, combined with bless, inner light and an OK shield makes it quite unkillable, without having to use the seal.

Points for Improvement:
Seal- i think it is redundant. the class has a lot of healing, and it hardly gets to the point where this is useful.
seal is a dead skill, that is unlikely to be used.
Phoenix Song, Spear of light- the class already has 3 powerful offensive abilities (dawn&crusade for non-DA, wrath for DA) that has no special effects.
these skills have decent damage, but that is not what is needed for the class.

the current problem is that the class has many skills that does the same thing. there are 5(!) good offensive, 3 heals plus inner light, and almost no utility (only prism and aura).
the solution, in my opinion, is to replace (or give effects of) a damage buff (10%), a DoT (10%) and a blind (20%) for seal, spear and song.

to Ash- i know that the reason there are no such skills is the overall power, but as small utilities (giving effects no larger than 10-20%) with reduced damage they might actually reduce the power of the class, and make it more interesting to play with.

true, we had many tankish-buff/debuff classes lately... but still.

EDIT: Ash- thank, i did not know some skills had the mentioned bonuses.
i do agree that many classes lately have a lot of damage-for-bonuses things. i guess i got used to it. (although i still love RW the most).

< Message edited by mahasamatman -- 9/24/2014 10:51:34 >

_____________________________

His followers called him Mahasamatman, and claimed he was a god.
He never claimed to be a god, but then, he never claimed not to be a god.
Circumstances being what they were, neither admission could be of any benefit.
Silence, though, could.
DF  Post #: 240
9/24/2014 10:15:32   
Ash
Member
quote:

Speaking of which.. I seem to get a scaled Artix guest on Artix vs The Undead with a bunch of new skills, and regular level 3 Artix in any other quest or when I invite him.. is that an accident or on purpose? ._.

Just updated Noxus Fumes and the Artix house item with the new one. The one from the hub town will get updated Friday hopefully.

quote:

Why does it do Good-damage though? Other than Pally's supposedly being of Good intentions (or Light ones...).

Go run the name of the spear, Cor Lucem, through a translator. (It's latin) You're using something of yourself and as a paladin that is, usually, good.

quote:

Seal- i think it is redundant. the class has a lot of healing, and wasting all mana on that (unlike pyro's resurrection, which is a bit OP) is not worth it.
seal is a dead skill, that is unlikely to be used.

It's your last resort button. It's not a dead skill as it can be the difference between losing with the boss having a small amount of HP left and winning. It's akin to the classic "Lay on Hands" ability of the Paladin to heal, and usually ended up (to a smart paladin anyway) healing most of your damage.

quote:

the solution, in my opinion, is to replace (or give effects of) a damage buff (10%), a DoT (10%) and a blind (20%) for seal, spear and song.

Dawn already gives a Bonus debuff so no to that. Aura already gives you a damage buff, so no to that. Spear has a built in crit bonus, so it's not getting an additional ability. I can give song a small DoT for two turns but that would lower the damage it deals like you said. That class' power has already dropped quite a bit due to everything it's packing. Dropping it more for a DoT might not be the best idea.

It's actually kinda funny. I got told by quite a few people that they didn't like the classes I designed to have bunches of effects because then they deal less damage. Now people want more effects. O.o
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 241
9/24/2014 10:30:31   
WHITE DRAGON MAGE
Member

Ash: Hi Ash any news on the artwork yet? Oh and I'm loving the changes to the skill set, its definitely one of the best classes to use against the undead, in your opinion which class is better against the undead the doom knight or the new paladin? Oh and my one complaint is the cor lucem skill is damage type locked to piercing damage, most people focus their stats into the damage type stat of their base class, so for mages and warriors this move isn't very effective.

< Message edited by WHITE DRAGON MAGE -- 9/24/2014 10:33:28 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 242
9/24/2014 10:45:45   
Ash
Member


 DoomKnight is most effective at killing everything. I don't even bother to try and compare it because there's no reason to. I ignore it.

That's been fixed since I noticed someone mentioned it a couple days ago. As I've said, multiple times, clear your cache and relog to get the fixes that have been put out.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 243
9/24/2014 10:58:00   
WHITE DRAGON MAGE
Member

Ash: I should probably rephrase the question then, in terms of abilities not power, if they where in the same tier group which is more effective against undead? Oh and any news on the new artwork for the paladin yet?

< Message edited by WHITE DRAGON MAGE -- 9/24/2014 11:00:18 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 244
9/24/2014 11:00:01   
mahasamatman
Member

where can i find the exact skills for the paladin? i'd like to know what are the 'versus-undead' triggers.
crabpeople: thanks.

< Message edited by mahasamatman -- 9/24/2014 11:40:23 >
DF  Post #: 245
9/24/2014 11:00:30   
DarkLore
Member

I get an error loading: Character message when I use the Artix Statue! WHHHHY?!
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 246
9/24/2014 11:03:45   
crabpeople
Member

It's not that horrible as it looks having cor lucem doing pierce because the other skills cooldown are low enough to just straight ignore it.

quote:

where can i find the exact skills for the paladin? i'd like to know what are the 'versus-undead' triggers.


page 9 of this thread.

< Message edited by crabpeople -- 9/24/2014 11:05:06 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 247
9/24/2014 11:22:11   
Ash
Member
quote:

Ash: I should probably rephrase the question then, in terms of abilities not power, if they where in the same tier group which is more effective against undead? Oh and any news on the new artwork for the paladin yet?

Paladin as it triggers on all of its skills not just one. Tomix has a lot on his plate. As the little note in the QL states, the art will be done when it's done.

There, statue is fixed.

crabpeople - Seriously, clear your cache and refresh your game. It's doing your weapon damage type now. That doesn't even factor in anymore.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 248
9/24/2014 12:00:05   
BludClaw
Member

I'm liking the new Artix guest, really looking forward to the update hitting the hub version.

And it looks like the Vayle guest got updated as well?
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 249
9/24/2014 15:35:21   
TotalHavok114
Member

As Paladins, we aren't going to fall victim to untied shoelaces are we?
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 250
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