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RE: Strength Blood Mages

 
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7/23/2013 12:46:11   
lionblades
Member

how can i beat them as a BH?
It seems if I get intimidated I usually lose
AQW  Post #: 26
7/24/2013 19:23:33   
ED Divine Darkness
Member

then u are too reliant on str. try to hav an energy primary, phys secondaries and a phys robot. not to mention good hp. what i normally do vs the is hav higher hp than them as a BH tank and take em down with me shield energy to avoid their gun or reflexing if they have used their gun. i use a bh tank build. a 140 hp str bounty usually sets then in place
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 27
7/25/2013 1:07:30   
Thylek Shran
Member

Its not only the BM str builds that are OPed, its the class itself.
Does not matter if I encounter them with a lvl 35 TM or BH I even get owned by lvl 32 strenght BMs.
BM just has to many powerfull skills in its skill tree. Also the ability to counter res and def debuffs while
having very offensive skills that can get used by the first turn and match perfect with Blood Lust.
Intimidate cannont be countered by the most classes and its hard to impossible for an intimidated BH to
survive the uber damage from DA and Bludgeon or Plasma Cannon even if they buff themself with
Relfex Boost or Energy Shield.

Bludgeon or Deadly Aim should get replaced because those skills was originally designed for defensive
TMs with Reroute and not for the combination with the offensive Blood Lust. Intimidate which is originally
a defensive merc skill should get replaced by an energy flow control skill that is not related to strenght
(so not Assimilation).

Blood Lust also should get set back to the state of Delta which would mean a reduction by 2 percent
points (9-23%).


quote:

Strength blood mages are weak. They're only good against super tank builds and that's it.

So thats why you play a (strenght ?) BM ValkyrieKnight. Its absolutely not true that str BMs are weak !
They are also not that good against super tank builds because their Blood Lust does not generate that
much HPs versus tanks.

< Message edited by Thylek Shran -- 7/25/2013 1:23:08 >
DF Epic  Post #: 28
7/25/2013 1:32:12   
Dual Thrusters
Member

@Thylek

As much as I hate to agree, I have to admit that everything there is true. I have an absurdly amount of defense, yet all their attacks smash through it like its just air. Alright, I'll try some offense now that my defenses are meaningless. Okay, intimidate just took out half my options. Aaand their shields just took away the other half Okay, how in the world are they doing more damage than smokescreen+strength bounties?

Their only weakness is their energy supply. But they keep doing high damage every turn, making you more worried about your current state. Not to mention all the EP drainers except for Assimilate basically gives them another turn to blast you aaand gain even more health.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 29
7/25/2013 1:34:43   
Scyze
Member

All it needs for these builds to become great again is someone to start it. It's like an old YouTube video that wasn't viral at start. All it needs is a kick-start, something needs to happen and then it's dominating the trend list.

These builds were around in the past, just that people didn't care much. Once they see a lot of these, and lose to them, you see these posts about them being OP or whatever.


@Thylek Shran,
Nothing has been changed in the BM's Skills (BL was) but then it hasn't changed. Whether it's supposed to be a violent form of TM or a balanced Class, you can still beat it. I can still beat them and when I was a BM, I lost... a lot.

quote:

Blood Lust also should get set back to the state of Delta which would mean a reduction by 2 percent
point (9-23%).
Err... HP's are quite low right now and damages aren't that high so it is reasonable that the regain is high. We do see damages that are high like before because the opponent's defenses aren't so high.

quote:

Bludgeon or Deadly Aim should get replaced because those skills was originally designed for TMs
What about their Plasma Rain or Overload? What about Cyber Hunters having Cheap Shot or Shadow Arts from Bounty Hunters?

BM's are supposed to be violent and therefore have offensive Skills. Why do you want to change that? It's like saying: "Scyze is a violent guy and rather than throwing grenades, he throws pebbles while in a battlefield." which is all wrong when you want to deal damage.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 30
7/25/2013 13:16:57   
Predator9657
Member

^
I like your logic :D
Epic  Post #: 31
7/25/2013 20:21:52   
ED Divine Darkness
Member

blood lust is not op! it is just the combo with DA! still not op! its like saying smoke+ cheapshot combos are op! no, it isnt. would be if bounty was given bludgeon. every class is balanced bros, its just that their build counters your or picks a weakness out of yours. try tlm hp str tank against them. focus on good defences and str. good hp. u will win. ;D
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 32
7/25/2013 20:30:17   
Dual Thrusters
Member

Well bloodlust is going to turn into an active skill soon, so we can't control that.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 33
7/27/2013 12:55:54   
Thylek Shran
Member

@Scyze

quote:

Err... HP's are quite low right now and damages aren't that high so it is reasonable that the regain is high. We do see damages that are high like before because the opponent's defenses aren't so high.

Most BMs now use str builds again so the damage is high. Think about those Blugeons
that do 53 damage and even more when they crit. Low HP mostly comes in combination
with high defenses. The problem is that skills that ignore defenses are in combination
with Blood Lust very powerfull. This makes especially BMs Blood Lust so effective vs any
kind of build. So it does not really matter if the HPs are low or high. You just cannot play
defensive vs BMs well which does mean that their damage output is way to high.
Defense ignoring skills like Bludgeon are especially powerfull vs low HP builds.

Also Rage is a problem because offensive classes benefit the most from it.
A lower Rage gain should help generally. Originally Rage was installed to counter the
old mercenary tank builds but now it gets abused by high offensive builds vs everybody.


quote:

What about their Plasma Rain or Overload? What about Cyber Hunters having Cheap Shot or Shadow Arts from Bounty Hunters?

All but BH´s Cheap Shot do not appear in combination with Blood Lust. The named classes
are more balanced and less powerfull than BMs.


quote:

BM's are supposed to be violent and therefore have offensive Skills. Why do you want to change that?

Because they are to much offensive and also have 2 defensive buffs to counter malf and smoke.
At their current offensive abilities they should at least lack 1 defensive buff so that they would
had to compensate it with their stats and armor. This would weaken str builds and also improve
balance. There are many possibilities to balance BMs.


--
quote:

Well bloodlust is going to turn into an active skill soon, so we can't control that.

That definetly would help.
DF Epic  Post #: 34
7/27/2013 14:07:23   
lionblades
Member

I saw a BM do 54 dmg bludgeon rage on a TLM tank u.u
AQW  Post #: 35
7/27/2013 14:09:37   
Ranloth
Banned


TLM? Passive Armors are ignored on rage completely and then 50% of defences due to Rage. You've already mentioned Str build and possibly high/max Bludgeon. That is normal because it's Rage, Str build, and passive Armor being completely ignored.

Invest in Dex or block core. It's blockable so it's do or die.
AQ Epic  Post #: 36
7/27/2013 14:48:07   
Predator9657
Member

quote:

Passive Armors are ignored on rage completely


:O Where does it say that?
Epic  Post #: 37
7/27/2013 14:59:52   
Ranloth
Banned


http://epicduelwiki.com/w/Rage#The_Rage_Meter - "How much more damage will a Rage attack inflict?"

Also, I apologise for getting it wrong but it ignores 50% of Passive Armors and 45% of your defences. In the past, it used to completely ignore your passive Armors.
AQ Epic  Post #: 38
7/28/2013 2:03:50   
Scyze
Member

These Strength BM builds were around for a long time; even after Berzerker got changed into Bludgeon. The number of players using this build had dropped but they were around causing the same problem as it is currently doing. Why wasn't this topic of them being OP brought up before? Is it just because there's a lot of them?

I used this build (more of a Strength/Dexterity) and it was similar to the current ones we see. Guess what? I managed to get win ratios above 90% and at the same time, destroying tank builds everyday. Anyone complain at that time? Nope, didn't even see one. I did complain once but that was when I was a tank TLM deflecting too much.


@Thylek Shran,
quote:

Rage is a problem because offensive classes benefit the most from it.
Defensive Classes also need this to win.
quote:

A lower Rage gain should help generally.
This is just going to make tank builds suffer... a lot. Me as a tank Mercenary, I cannot gain Rage fast enough against the Strength BH's and when I get my first Rage, they would probably be on their second one.
quote:

Originally Rage was installed to counter the
old mercenary tank builds but now it gets abused by high offensive builds vs everybody.
Maybe Rage is still doing what it is supposed to be doing. Some builds are useless without this and if some builds don't have Rage, it's weak.


quote:

You just cannot play
defensive vs BMs well which does mean that their damage output is way to high.
quote:

The named classes
are more balanced and less powerfull than BMs.
Actually, Bounty Hunters are the same (possibly more stronger) than BM's when it comes to Strength builds. Today, BH's have the Strength build which involves using Smoke Screen and Azrael's Will; I've seen people using this build gaining win ratios up to 85% while the BM's are lower.
quote:

All but BH´s Cheap Shot do not appear in combination with Blood Lust.
What do you mean? Cheap Shot has a 25% chance that it deals a critical damage and then you might end up doing the same damage as Bludgeon and regaining the same amount of HP.


quote:

they... have 2 defensive buffs to counter malf and smoke.
So do two other Classes: Tech Mage and Bounty Hunter. Bounty Hunters have the same as BM's (Energy Shield and Reflexive Boost) but why aren't you concerned about that? Bounty Hunters have Blood Lust too and they can be very offensive when they use Smoke Screen. *Even after they use Smoke Screen, they don't have to use Energy to deal a lot of damage.*
quote:

they should at least lack 1 defensive buff so that they would
had to compensate it with their stats and armor.
If you're suggesting something similar to Tactical Mercenary's Mineral Armor or Cyber Hunter's Plasma Armor, then you're just going to make BM's popular until the Skill becomes an Active one.
quote:

There are many possibilities to balance BMs.
There's also a chance that those changes will just make BM's OP or OU (Over-Used).


@lionblades,
quote:

I saw a BM do 54 dmg bludgeon rage on a TLM tank u.u
I was doing damages ranging from 60-65 in Delta.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 39
7/31/2013 14:48:33   
superposition
Member
 

my thoughts on strength bm

i happen to use focus bh

the problems that i have with them is they deal massive damage on every turn, emp doesn't work well because of deadly aim along with their strikes and bm don't really need their energy to win because of that. shields dont work well because they have so much adaptability in their attacks, smokescreen lowers my rage gain and increases theirs, heals just help them gain more health. they gain rage ridiculously fast for how low their support is, they rage on the same turn that a glass cannon would, i on the other hand some times haven't even raged when they have had their second rage. also rage hurts me far more than it hurts them, because of my high defense and low health and with their high health and lower defense. str bms also have no incentive to even play defensively, because of blood lust they can attack every turn with no cares as to how much damage they take more damage actually helps them gain rage faster, even the only defensive skill they use, intimidate, is an attack that works best with high strength and gets even better with blood lust. it works on merc becasue if they go tank they cant deal much damage with it and strength merc was nerfed to the ground and hardly anyone uses it anymore, they could use blood commander to get the same effect but they have to waste a trun also they have a passive armor which is most effective in a long battle. deadly aim works with tm because its got reroute that encourages being attacked not attacking. bludgeon works on tm because tm also have malfunction, that encourages energy ranged attacks and support, this means they would logically have all their attacks being energy and because of this they are easily counter-able with a shield which many classes have, either passive or active, bludgeon is a second option in case malfunction is shielded, and they sacrifice their res and dex to get it to a powerful attack which makes them more likely to be blocked and deflected, tm also have no defensive incentive to attack, in fact they have the weakest defenses of any class., which is where the glass cannon came from, the only viable option for tm is to try to kill the opponent as fast as possible. blood lust works with bh because its only good aggressive skill is smokescreen, which has a lot of incentive to use because of blood lust it also lowers your opponents block chance and raises your own, but in lowering your opponents dex you slow your rage gain down, smoke screen also improves with tech a defensive stat, in order to get smoke screen to a powerful point you either have to sacrifice health, and power. also with the only effective attack improving with tech there is more incentive to have high focus and thus more even distribution of stats, str bm only have enough tech and support to satisfy the passive requirements so they can use the passives that give them a very powerful offense that heals them with each attack. bh were given the incentive to lower their power, and those that don't have to get it back through a high lvl smoke screen and sacrificing dex for tech because it improves their offense, that is then easily countered by shields and energy drains of which there are now many. bh also don't have the offense that bm do. bm power through their opponents defenses while still gaining maximum rage, bh get around their opponents defenses thus lowering their rage gain, even if they use cheap shot, which is a terrible skill that people rarely use, they ignore a tiny bit or a massive amount of the opponents defenses which means they do good damage and regain health but dont gain even close to the rage bm do. rage also benefits high health and low defense the most because rage is gained when being attacked as well, and the more damage that is taken the faster rage is gained, which in other builds does not work well because they have passive armors and no passive health regen, so they take less damage and have less health to take damage. especially against strength bm with platinums pride its even harder to rage against them and even easier for them. even with a 4 focus super bh tank their side arm rages do about 43 damage then on bludgeon its in the 50s, which is two thirds of my health, they can do this twice most of the time. bludgeon is also very powerful for the little amount it costs, its far more powerful than any other attack similar to it, maxed it does 50% more damage for only 28 energy, double strike, though with one less cool down, does 42% more damage for a cost of 33 energy, at lvl one bludgeon does 23% more damage for 10 energy while double strike does 15% more for 15 energy both improve by 3% and 2 energy with each lvl. its been bugging me for a while and it just doesnt seem fair. not to mention berserker and massacre, though it is difficult to compare them to bludgeon. mass and serker both are at their best when at higher lvls along with double strike, but are then easily prevented by a slight energy drain, bludgeon however is not. even at lvl 10 it is fairly low cost. with a lvl 35 it would do 18 more damage and with bm thats 25% more health not to mention a str bm dealing massive damage even with low or mid lvl bludgeon and gaining large amounts of rage and health. i know passives are supposed to turn into actives, but they announced that weeks ago, i cant imagine a change like that would take a short amount of time, but 1v1 is extremely frustrating with strength bm everywhere, ive fought up to 4 in a row and lost nearly every time.
Post #: 40
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