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RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread

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1/28/2014 12:59:30   
The Jop
Member

Oh, that was because we were talking about it in the wrong thread. This is the place to discuss balancing parts of the game, so it's perfectly suited for iron hide.

I've been talking about it being not balanced, as in it is much stronger than any shield card or DoT in terms of efficiency and turn by turn defense/damage. All I've gotten is anecdotal evidence of how it can be beaten and, I repeat, beatable does not mean balanced. Just because you're good at beating people who spam iron hide or you developed a good strategy against them, it does not mean that it's balanced. To be balanced it should not be as good as it currently is compared to any other defense card.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 1/28/2014 13:56:17 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 351
1/28/2014 15:02:50   
TheSage
Member

With that kind of thinking then DoTs are OPed, the only way to defend against them are normal shields and Iron Hide. Trying to make it so that the only thing that can stop/slow down DoTs are shields would make DoTs the strongest damage type in the game. The fact that DoTs are stopped by 2 defense cards and are unaffected by the 3rd Counter Attack. If you want Iron Hide to be changed to have no effect on DoTs then Counter Attack should defend against them just to make it fair.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 352
1/28/2014 15:08:03   
Gorillo Titan
Member

Terrible idea shadow characters are already very power making Void reflection better would mean they have the best pierce counter Dots and can heal plus can do a lot of damage for no energy.
Post #: 353
1/28/2014 15:19:44   
Vertigo Beast
Member

I think a large problem is that Jop is using Resonance mainly to base his argument off of. Resonance is very dependent upon DoTs to deal smaller damage consistently. Iron Hide is easy enough to bypass with other characters. If you can break through it they will probably be discouraged from using it repeatedly and put their energy into offense, but the fact that your DoTs arent doing anything is encouraging them to keep using the tactic of Iron Hide over and over again. Iron Hide isn't all that much better than regular shield cards and it IS temporary, meaning they wont ALWAYS have it. It really just reminds me of Freeze in the Ice decks. They limited the card so that you wouldn't be able to continuously stun-lock your opponent. Iron Hide is just a stalling card, except it isnt quite as bad as a stun as the opponent can set up their own defense for the two turns it's up, they aren't completely helpless.

_____________________________
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 354
1/28/2014 15:22:52   
Gorillo Titan
Member

Why not add attack cards and super charge to res to make it harder?
Didn't The Jop come up with Res?
Post #: 355
1/28/2014 15:26:33   
Mondez
Member

In counter arguing against IronHides are OP is this... turns and energy are wasted on Iron Hides. The arguement is made that Neutralize regains the lost energy, but Neutralize in a 15+ card deck and the chances of drawing it is 1/15+. There are characters that are balanced between DoTs and pure attack. Relying on DoTs alone and them being blocked by Iron Hide is a counter strategy. If DoTs don't work then go on pure offensive.

MoD + Poisons are easy to stack, but MoD + Poison + Attack Damage cards can reduce Iron Hide to butter in terms of Shadows. Energy Characters have the tendency to build up power in their attacks such as Surge, Charge, and Super Charge. Energy characters main source of damage is not in their DoTs, but the ability to gain huge amounts of damage in their attack card combinations. Iron Hide against Earth? Stone Wall, Crush, Mountain Strike, and Petrify. Iron Hide against Ice? Shatter, Frostbite, Snow Orb, and Ice Orb. Fire? It's a slab of cheese for them. Water? Water is debatable, but lost turns equal the more heals. Neutral? Power Strike, Deathflow, Cat's Reflex, and Iron Hide counter.

Iron Hide before was broken because it shielded 2000 damage per turn in which was 4000 in a total of 2 turns which no one could get through. 1000 per turn is no big deal because we have characters and CC now to go through that AND like I said spamming Iron Hides will make you lose energy and turns later on.

5 energy to some is no big deal, but believe me on this: Every single energy point counts.

So on the discussion of balance I would like to rearing up the issue of Life Drain and it's energy cost. I understand it heals 400 health and deals 500 damage, but I still can't see how it works for shadow because the combination of Sacrifice and Life Drain is a good combination, but it really doesn't help Shadow much since Life Drain is a very high costing card.

Now I know that Life Drain is essentially a Light's Heal and 500 damage card, but deriving away from that combination I feel Life Drain should go down to 6 or 7 because essentially looking at a full Shadow deck it creates conformity in a Shadow's deck in terms of cost and players would tend to throw out that card since it essentially is an 8 cost. If you look at cards like MoD and I am aware of the delay in turn hence the 6 cost, but it deals 900 damage which 400 can be healed by Life Drain. Now we have a card like BloodRage which a 3 cost and a 400 health cost for 500 piercing damage.

Every element is different and they have to synergize which I understand, but Life Drain is one of those cards I feel needs to derive from its high cost and needs a tone down from 8 to 7 or 6.

< Message edited by Mondez -- 1/28/2014 15:40:57 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 356
1/28/2014 15:52:29   
The Jop
Member

I'm not even saying the defense amount is overpowered, even though it's a lot more powerful than other shield cards for its energy cost. I'm just saying it shouldn't last for two turns, because it lasting two turns and being spammable because of its cost/being in CC makes it possible to use throughout the battle. And you shouldn't be able to have 1000-1100 defense for the entire battle. If it wasn't in CC it wouldn't have been as much of a problem, but since it is I think it should be dealth with.

And I'm not speaking as someone who uses DoTs a lot, I'm talking about how it compares to other cards in the game as a whole. You should be using numeric evidence to talk about balance, not anecdotal evidence, i.e. "I beat it this way" or "You can beat it this way", without describing how the energy and effects of the cards interact and compare.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 1/28/2014 15:54:23 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 357
1/28/2014 15:58:12   
Mondez
Member

It's a powerful shield yes, but it's not permanent and it's available through turns hence the cost. The reason why counterattack cards cost more is because they don't go away unless you attack, but you get damaged in the process. Iron Hide is a temporary shield and nothing more. The more one spams it then the less energy they'll have to attack. If you want to give it an increased cost then 6 would do, but anything else would affect the bit of balance that we have.

I won't try to prolong the arguement, but that's how I see it.

< Message edited by Mondez -- 1/28/2014 15:59:55 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 358
1/28/2014 16:00:49   
Riniti
Member

Jop, every card, every character has a weakness and strengths. That's how it should be, otherwise nothing would ever get done. No, it's not over-powered. I would say why, but we have literally been saying the same thing for days now. Yes, Iron Hide is strong. So are a lot of other cards. It's really not worth arguing this much over.
Post #: 359
1/28/2014 16:01:08   
DidYouKnowThat
Member

Cutting it down to 1 turn only? There's something called a Stun though. . ..

Cutting it down to 1 turn huh. . . . Then make it 4 energy or something. Lolol. Or make it no cost, you must sacrifice ONE card. :P

And not to mention it'd make cards like Corruption just impossible.

< Message edited by DidYouKnowThat -- 1/28/2014 16:02:40 >
Post #: 360
1/28/2014 16:03:21   
The Jop
Member

@RIniti
Yes, of course, but comparing it to other methods of defense it is much, much better. What balance is all about is finding a way for parts of the game to coincide; some elements being powerful in their own ways but none being too powerful in any way so that they can neutralize other elements' tactics.

@DYKT
A 1 turn stun is pretty powerful and shouldn't be in CC. The fact that you think of it that way should show it shouldn't be in CC.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 361
1/28/2014 16:03:23   
Riniti
Member

Cutting it down to one turn would completely remove the point. Two shields, for 1000 defense, costs 6 energy. These are permanent. Yes, they can be beat by penetrating moves, but those aren't cost effective and just annoying, as well as weak. Iron Hide is already five energy, and only 1000 for two turns. Making it 1 turn, even for 4 energy, wouldn't make it better at all; in fact, it would be pretty UNDER-powered.

It costs five energy, lasts for two turns. Same amount in shields, permanent, take 6. It's NOT over-powered, at all. It's a pretty darn fair trade.

< Message edited by Riniti -- 1/28/2014 16:07:27 >
Post #: 362
1/28/2014 16:05:27   
The Jop
Member

It would work very well for completely blocking DoTs should as Mountain Strike and Mark of Death, things you can predict. Besides, no one has really said how it is balanced numerically in comparison to other defense cards, just stories about how you can beat it, which doesn't make it balanced. The difference is that you're not getting 1000 temporary shields, you're getting 2000-2200 since it lasts for two turns. So it's 2000-2200 temporary defense for 5 energy compared to 1000 defense for 6 energy.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 1/28/2014 16:06:49 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 363
1/28/2014 16:05:49   
DidYouKnowThat
Member

Lel, I don't use CC Ironhides so I don't mind if it gets taken away from CC. :P

And I thought of another way. Iron Hide, costs 2 energy, but must sacrifice one card. . . but that's only if it goes down to 1 turn. . which I don't think it will . .since it ain't an OP card.

The best bet I'd say is either organize No-CC matches, or brave the dangers of PvP Random. Lol
Post #: 364
1/28/2014 16:07:04   
Riniti
Member

You could always just save shield cards for those too. It's like arguing that Ice Wall is OP, by that argument. Ice wall, 1000 defense immediately. Would work great with Mountain Strike and Mark of Death. Saying that's OP too?
Post #: 365
1/28/2014 16:10:59   
DidYouKnowThat
Member

@Jop: Can thou make a video of some dude spamming iron Hide every turn . . . just curious. I want to see exactly how you play against it. A full battle against it, someone trying to spam Iron Hide 24/7.

I want to see your cards, what you delete, what you put in play, and WHEN you put those DoT's in play, etc. . . :P If you're that convinced it is OP, . . . just saying

< Message edited by DidYouKnowThat -- 1/28/2014 16:11:47 >
Post #: 366
1/28/2014 16:13:44   
TheSage
Member

Iron Hide is not getting changed, end of story.

As for it getting spammed in battle, Jop take a look at your DoTs, 4 mana dealing 1,200 damage over 6 turns with Arc, deals more damage for less mana then any other DoT card and the damage STACKS. You want to talk about cards getting spammed think about what it is you are spamming, before comparing cards side by side.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 367
1/28/2014 16:14:19   
Mondez
Member

Don't forget Neutral faction is balanced in both attacking and defending like Earth, but lacking in the healing and the shield gain compared to Earth. Iron Hide is the cou de grae in Neutral defense which gives them a bit of sustain against other elements giving it balance because it can't rely on Counter Attack and shield cards because other elements excel in shield gaining like Earth and Ice. They can't deal massive damage like Fire and Energy. They can't keep continuos damage in a cost efficient way like Shadow. They can't regain health like Water.

Iron Hide helps Neutral keep sustain against all elements and the best one that gives that example would be Orc Chieftan.

< Message edited by Mondez -- 1/28/2014 16:16:11 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 368
1/28/2014 16:16:26   
DidYouKnowThat
Member

So true. You seriously cannot fend off a ton of DoT's (Shatters, Mountain Strikes, Arcs, etc.) without Iron Hides, and it only lasting one turn? Buggerish!

You need that extra turn since they can so EASILY Freeze or Petrify. Iron Hide at 2 turns is only deserved.

Like. . .5 Shatters at once in play, or Corruptions. . .yeesh. 1-turn IronHide just doesn't cut it. And for 5 Energy, one turn. Hah, the only thing you'll be blocking is trying to GUESS a Retri or something.

And, the Arcs last for a whopping 6 turns. 2 Arcs = 8 energy, yet deal the same damage at poison and lasts two turns more. Not to mention you can stack definitely more than 2, along with some Lightnings.

(Lightning has some decent defense)




< Message edited by DidYouKnowThat -- 1/28/2014 16:23:14 >
Post #: 369
1/28/2014 17:28:56   
The Jop
Member

I keep saying anecdotes don't prove balance. We should be looking at it from how it compares to other defense cards, not how I can deal with it. This isn't about me, Resonance, Necrosis, Monk, or any particular character/player. It's about iron hide, which I don't believe is balanced. But I give up, unfortunately. I've been told by a tester several times that it won't be changed, what more can I do? At least I have laid out all my points clearly if they will ever be taken into consideration.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 1/28/2014 17:29:56 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 370
1/28/2014 18:02:54   
TheSage
Member

Comparing Iron Hide to shields is like comparing Shatter to Electric Arc, they share the same type, but do completely different things.....

Iron Hide ABSORBS damage, Shields BLOCK damage, yes they both defend but they do 2 different things.

The only point you seem to keep making is that Iron Hide blocks all of your DoTs, and that it gets played every turn against you. In that aspect the person you are fighting is most likely thinking DoTs is OPed because you keep using them. If you want to look at balance you have to look at both sides and use different play styles, using the same style all the time makes you predictable and easily countered against.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 371
1/28/2014 18:11:53   
Mondez
Member

quote:

It's a powerful shield yes, but it's not permanent and it's available through turns hence the cost. The reason why counterattack cards cost more is because they don't go away unless you attack, but you get damaged in the process. Iron Hide is a temporary shield and nothing more. The more one spams it then the less energy they'll have to attack. If you want to give it an increased cost then 6 would do, but anything else would affect the bit of balance that we have.

It's temporary hence the low cost. Sage and others have covered the basis on every possible arguement. Pre-Iron Hide was OP hence it was lowered to 1000. If Iron Hide was permanent then the cost would go up to 15 to be only a useless stagnant card with Neutral having no balance in its deck against other elements.

quote:

We should be looking at it from how it compares to other defense cards, not how I can deal with it.

If you want to look to how it compares to other defense cards then look at how other cards affect the overall battle. Every little change affects a deck as a whole and how it counteracts with other cards. It isn't just the card in its own nature, but how it is played and used effectively against other elements.

How you deal with it is a factor in balance changes. It's like looking at a considered overpowered skill and trying to compare it to other skills and trying to balance it without looking at how to counter it properly.

Again, in order to balance Iron Hide you have to look how other elements deal with it and not just try to categorize it to balance it with other defense cards because in the long run to balance: Every single factor must be accounted from the elements, to the cards, and to how it's played.


< Message edited by Mondez -- 1/28/2014 18:17:18 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 372
1/28/2014 18:57:26   
The Jop
Member

Are "absorbing" and "blocking" different? It absorbs damage until the shield is broken through, same as a shield, except it last for two turns. They serve the same function of blocking damage no matter how you want to word it. And again, just because Iron Hide can be countered that does not mean it's balanced. That is the whole reason you should be comparing iron hide to other forms of defense. I won't argue anymore on this though, what would be the point? Is Nulgath going to read my posts and be convinced?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 373
1/28/2014 19:45:28   
DidYouKnowThat
Member

@Jop: Sage deals with cards right? Or does he only assemble the decks, and Nulgath makes the card themselves, etc. . . .

ANYWAYS, what about this. A little change to Ironhide, same affect, same cost, right?

BUT, if the Iron Hide is broken through on first turn, it cannot regenerate back to 1,000 on the 2nd turn, so BAM, only 1 turn use.

If you lower it to like 100, it can still re-generate back to 1,000 on next turn though, making 2 turns. I think that's pretty fair, since DoT's already pack a heavy punch, and you can finish it off with
a couple of attack cards and cancel out the 2-turn affect.

AND, it'll really encourage people to actually stack 2x Ironhide to make it a full 2,000 . .. my opinion.

And that's a win-win deal, the dude has more defense, and for you, that's 2 turns less of Ironhide. :) How do you think of that Jop? :P


ANYWAYS, do you guys think Life-drain is worth it? I always try to never use it since the 8 Energy could be used for something else. . .like a DoT. . .

Edited out reference to deleted comment. ~Skurge, ArchKnight OSGD

< Message edited by Skurge -- 1/28/2014 20:09:04 >
Post #: 374
1/28/2014 19:55:50   
Gorillo Titan
Member

Yes since its mostly used with a card that cost no energy so 8 energy for 1000 damage is great.

< Message edited by Gorillo Titan -- 1/28/2014 19:57:08 >
Post #: 375
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