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RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread

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10/5/2014 19:23:01   
Lord Ferno
Member

I just beat the shade of when with 6 hp left.... quite impressive for a hybrid....
Post #: 451
10/5/2014 19:36:52   
pitties
Member

@ MR G W: Lol we were trying to sum up the classes in as few words as possible, not whole paragraphs describing them :P. Of course I could go on and on describing it and end up more accurate, but I wanted a quick summary or epithet.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 452
10/6/2014 11:01:03   
DarkLore
Member

Well today DK will possibly be fully released. Who's excited to possibly save it as their main class? I am!
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 453
10/6/2014 11:11:16   
pitties
Member

I made a promise to myself to not use it until I get to level 80 and equip the DK items. Wearing it for the first time with the full set will be a better accomplishment.

Oh and I was just wondering, about "life draining skills." Since they are a fixed percentage of hp and cannot crit shouldn't they either heal more or have lower cooldowns/mana costs when compared to an attacking skill? I am not saying that DK has to be changed, I realize the deadline is over, but I am just wondering if things like this are considered when balancing classes. Coming from AQ classic, where they balance every little detail, even lucky strikes/critical hits, I am curious if DF does the same.

< Message edited by pitties -- 10/6/2014 11:51:12 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 454
10/6/2014 11:58:20   
Mr G W
Member

They're damage/heal over time skills and are balanced as such.

They're not an actual attack but instead status effects.

Please don't quote the post directly above yours. It's considered spam. -David the Wanderer.

< Message edited by David the Wanderer -- 10/6/2014 12:17:50 >
AQ DF  Post #: 455
10/6/2014 12:00:03   
pitties
Member

So "damage/heal over time skills" are balanced as such. What is the such supposed to mean? Not the answer I was looking for tbh. I actually want an answer from Ash who actually knows what goes on behind the scenes.

And this is my reasoning: A hp heal can be translated to extra turns alive by dividing the heal by average monster damage. And extra turns alive mean more damage. However, if instead of healing, you used a pure damage skill you have a chance to crit and effectively halve the number of turns needed to reach the same damage. Since heals cannot crit, are they given a multiplier to increase them based on a player's average crit rate?

< Message edited by pitties -- 10/6/2014 12:02:27 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 456
10/6/2014 12:01:36   
Mr G W
Member

They're treated as being damage over time skills (they cannot critical, they follow weaknesses/resistances in a different way, etc) rather than normal attacks.
AQ DF  Post #: 457
10/6/2014 12:04:06   
pitties
Member

exactly damage over time skills and hots are treated similar. But they are horribly unbalanced as of now. Since dots and hots cannot crit, the player actually ends up doing less damage with the same mana cost. Example: a 20 mana cost attack would be better than a 20 mana cost DOT. Of course thats assuming that DF even balances damage to mana, which I seriously doubt.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 458
10/6/2014 12:37:19   
Mr G W
Member

Class skills are not balanced towards our asininely high critical hit chances.

Critical hits are seen as an extra, not as a necessity.
AQ DF  Post #: 459
10/6/2014 14:17:26   
pitties
Member

I never said they had to be balanced around our asininely high crit chances. But even with 20 crit, we would still get more use out of an attack because of the fast that it can crit; even if its rare our average damage goes up.

Level 79! One more level until I can equip deathknight class!

Removed mini-modding comment. ~Ash

< Message edited by Ash -- 10/6/2014 14:33:52 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 460
10/6/2014 14:33:27   
Ash
Member


 I'll answer it but from now on things that deal with multiple classes like that need to go in either the all classes discussion thread or a Q&A post. Secondly just because it's not me answering it doesn't mean you can dismiss the answer as wrong, in this case Mr G W is close.

quote:

Oh and I was just wondering, about "life draining skills." Since they are a fixed percentage of hp and cannot crit shouldn't they either heal more or have lower cooldowns/mana costs when compared to an attacking skill?

Life Draining in the case of the HoT/DoT, isn't "life draining" because that's a horrible way to balance an effect. The HoT is balanced based on the Tier of the class and, as Over Time effects are an effect, as a beneficial effect with appropriate penalties for being healing. Healing is no longer going to be tied to damage done as that lets you either get piddly healing or lots of healing if you get a couple crits while using it. It's going to be a % of your max health, as is the case of every heal I've done so far. Healing is incredibly powerful and as such you aren't going to get to gimmick it by getting crits.

No, they shouldn't heal more just because they are a fixed %. Also, no they shouldn't have a lower cooldown or mana cost because of that. Healing is now setup to being a %, you don't get to cheese it to be higher, you don't get to gimmick it to get that little bit extra out. You get x% healing because then I can give it a value, assign a %, assign a valid mana cost, and not have random dart board math.

quote:

But they are horribly unbalanced as of now. Since dots and hots cannot crit, the player actually ends up doing less damage with the same mana cost. Example: a 20 mana cost attack would be better than a 20 mana cost DOT. Of course thats assuming that DF even balances damage to mana, which I seriously doubt.

Oh? I wasn't aware that Crits were even factored into BASE damage calculations. As I said before, everyone needs to get off the "but CRITS...CRITS CRITS CRITS!!!" bandwagon. It's going to be toned back. Stop focusing on Crits or they'll be toned down a lot faster than I had planned. No class that's been revamped has been revamped with the current Crit rate in mind. That is going to be lowered so any "well we Crit a lot right now..." needs to be removed from your discussions until that time. Ignore Crits until I can fix them, they will get fixed and you'll get a better idea of how classes are supposed to operate when you're not basing your entire game around one stat.

Yes Mana costs are determined by the power of the skill. That's why when I ether raise or lower the power of a skill the mana cost goes up or down.

< Message edited by Ash -- 10/6/2014 14:34:47 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 461
10/6/2014 14:43:01   
pitties
Member

Ash, when I talked about crits I did not mean 70+ crit or something crazy. Even if you scale back crits, players will still have a little bit and that little bit will make the attack always better than a dot. The only way to balance this is if dots did more damage to make up for being unable to crit. However, they are also unable to miss, so they shouldn't be boosted TOO much.

Anyways, I wasn't trying to dismiss Mr G W. I was just worried that our discussion moved away from DK's skill and was going offtopic so I wanted you to answer and settle it quickly. I'm sorry that we went off topic a bit.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 462
10/6/2014 14:48:23   
Mr G W
Member

Dots don't account stat damage either, remember that.

However, dots usually do more damage than skills. The dark rite dot is a easy guaranteed 500+ damage AND heal at higher levels. I don't see why this needs to be buffed.

Excluding this one, other dots easily do 200% weapon damage on top of a normal attack. Sure you are not dealing damage all at once and you are not getting critical/stat bonuses, but it is a lot of damage for a single attack.

Other status effects do not get anything off your stats or crit either.

< Message edited by Mr G W -- 10/6/2014 14:51:18 >
AQ DF  Post #: 463
10/6/2014 14:52:26   
pitties
Member

It definitely needs to be buffed. You spend one turn doing no damage then do 500 damage in a total of 5 turns. Therefore the skill does only 500/6 damage a turn and heals 500/6 hp a turn. You have to factor in hat one turn you wasted doing nothing also. Instead of using the skill, you could have used a massive attack and crit doing much more damage in much less time.


@Ash: Are attacks really balanced around damage and mana? The stun on DK for example allows the player to do 560% damage over its duration (140% stun and 140%*3 for regular attack) for 25 mana while saving the player from alot of damage (effective counts as a heal AND a massive damage skill). Blood tap, on the other hand, costs 30 mana, does light damage, and heals a small amount while allowing the monster to attack and further lower the heal... I think stuns in general are way too good for their mana costs and should cost more. Doomknight's doom spikes have a good mana cost for a stun skill, for example (yes I realize its also a multi, but I am using it just for reference sake).

< Message edited by pitties -- 10/6/2014 14:55:26 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 464
10/6/2014 14:56:47   
Mr G W
Member

You get 500 damage AND healing from a single skill. Just because it doesn't do it all at once it doesn't mean you waste 6 turns. You only lose 1 turn. You can attack just fine the other 5.

Remember that you are guaranteed to deal that much damage. You click it and bam, 500 dmg and heal just like that. Other skills won't even hit anywhere near that high unless you crit.

And unless you are playing doomknight, no single will EVER get you that much damage and healing all at once.

< Message edited by Mr G W -- 10/6/2014 14:57:23 >
AQ DF  Post #: 465
10/6/2014 14:59:08   
Ash
Member


 It doesn't miss, heals you, damages the enemy, and will ignore any elemental resistance besides All (which very few foes in the game have). Yes, it TOTALLY needs a buff. Healing counts for MORE than damage, I can't make that any clearer.

Each attack on its own is paying for itself. A Stun is a stun. It doesn't pay for other attacks, it doesn't pay for being able to combo after it, it pays for stunning your enemy. You pay for each effect, not every other effect on the class that can be combined. If that was the case every skill would cost 70+ mana. How is THAT balanced?

Now, if you want to discuss general class things like healing and damage anymore, take it to the All Classes Discussion thread. Anything else that isn't specifically about DK will be deleted as off topic. Go use the thread that's made for this.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 466
10/6/2014 15:02:10   
Faerdin
Rune Knight


 500 damage and healing in five turns is still doing 500 damage and healing 500 Health for the cost of a single turn.

And when talking about balance, Doom Knight is something of an untouchable subject. It isn't balanced. It wasn't meant to be, and that is why there is and only ever will be one Tier 4 Class.

Edit: Ninja'd!

In any case, I'm excited that Death Knight's planned to be implemented today. My hands are getting bruised from smashing my Orb of Saving and telling it to save my Class. :D

< Message edited by Faerdin -- 10/6/2014 15:03:34 >

_____________________________
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 467
10/6/2014 15:02:29   
crabpeople
Member

pitties:
Most of the new enemies have stun resist. That shouldn't be a valid argument in my opinion (also stuns have large cooldowns to compensate their strengh).
About rite you're saying that you spend 1 turn doing nothing. That's not true, the same turn the skill is used the enemy is getting a 1 turn dot and you are healing a 1 dot at your turn which is probably the same or less damage you took from your enemy "wasting" that turn.

< Message edited by crabpeople -- 10/6/2014 15:03:00 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 468
10/6/2014 15:02:51   
DarkLore
Member

How's the possibility of DK being live Today Ash?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 469
10/6/2014 15:03:44   
Ash
Member


 Fixing a few bugs in other parts of the game. When I'm done I'll make sure everything is ready and make it all live.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 470
10/6/2014 15:04:54   
Mr G W
Member

quote:

How's the possibility of DK being live Today Ash?


The ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つHYPE༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ is real.

*start the countdown*

< Message edited by Mr G W -- 10/6/2014 16:13:04 >
AQ DF  Post #: 471
10/6/2014 16:14:21   
DarkLore
Member

I'm going to have such DK swag on my character page when its live. LOL!
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 472
10/6/2014 16:14:56   
pitties
Member

I would have also, but somehow I'm getting error saving exp halfway to level 80... :/
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 473
10/6/2014 16:19:10   
Mr G W
Member

Because you hit the daily xp cap (3m for 70+ characters)
AQ DF  Post #: 474
10/6/2014 16:21:12   
pitties
Member

yeah I know. I leveled from 78 halfway to 79 75%. So close yet so far...
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 475
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