RE: Passives Skills to Active Skills? Is this even needed?


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8/25/2013 10:32:35

zion
Member

Passives are what separate the classes of most video games. This is why the devs should have come up with new passives for the evolved classes or the evo-classes should have had the exact same passives. The current situation of OP passive combos (BM) wouldn't exist.
The answer isn't removing passives, its incorporating them into the class without using skill points. I am thinking that the passives of a class should just upgrade automatically per level.
With this idea you can have 12 active moves which can be broken up into (2 or 3) different chains. You could have defensive moves which work well together, active moves and/or blanced.
I think this would keep the flavor of each class while giving more options.
All classes should be able to heal, activate shields, stat boosts, debuffs, energy drains and attack moves albeit with different levels of proficiency, requirements and risk.

AQ

DF

MQ

Post #: 26

8/25/2013 10:41:33

Exploding Penguin
Moderator

I think what the devs are trying to do is make it so that all skills on the skill tree are equal in a sense, and that all builds shouldn't rely on a select couple skills.

Epic	Post #: 27

8/25/2013 15:44:54

Stabilis
Member

The only thing I am really worried about in this change is if this excuses more factory skills skills like "113% weapon damage" or "40 physical damage".

AQ

Post #: 28

8/25/2013 17:30:26

xzkamityx
Member

This will completely ruin juggernaut. Only reason why juggernauts can win are because of passives(BH and BM bloodlust, TM and CH armor, and TMs reroute and deadly aim). Basically Strength builds will be a must for most classes and ruin the whole reason why they made the stat system the way it is in Omega.

Post #: 29

8/26/2013 1:04:47

goldslayer1
Member

quote:

This will completely ruin juggernaut. Only reason why juggernauts can win are because of passives(BH and BM bloodlust, TM and CH armor, and TMs reroute and deadly aim). Basically Strength builds will be a must for most classes and ruin the whole reason why they made the stat system the way it is in Omega.

strength builds were an obvious guess when they decided to lower health and increase energy points for omega.

it allowed more offensive moves to be used through energy, and less health to withstand such offensive driven builds.
this is why strength mercs and str/sup mage are so popular.

and the fact that theres a gun that can basically steal your turn doesn't help this situation either.
this only gets worse if passives have to be activated. not just for 1 vs 1.
but theres barely any strategy left. all there is now is doing as much damage as possible in the shortest amount of turns.
from the details we've gotten, i can say that using passives will be a waste of time going up against any strength builds.

and id love for someone to reply saying strength builds are OP >.>
cause that simply isn't the problem, the problem is the way the stat system is set up.

quote:

I think what the devs are trying to do is make it so that all skills on the skill tree are equal in a sense, and that all builds shouldn't rely on a select couple skills.

that doesn't make sense with the current balance format.
they wont achieve balance this way because of skill trees being locked to their classes.

they would basically have to make every class look the same if they wanted balance between the classes by having all skills being equal in terms of power or effects.

theres also the issues with stats themselves not being balanced. skills rely on different type of stats (str, dex, tech, support, etc) as long as they are not balanced, you cant achieve balance by trying to make all skills "equal" because they wouldn't really be equal at all. some class will still be stronger than another because of a stat that is used for its skills.

if you need more details on what i mean, you can check the thread here.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 8/26/2013 1:11:25 >

Post #: 30

8/26/2013 6:10:51

CN2025
Member

that would dull the game man.. the devs need to ask people if they are cool with it first before creating a change that will make people angry and most likely quit

AQ

DF

Post #: 31

8/26/2013 6:58:31

kosmo
Member

u just must keep in mind that we DONT KNOW how and wich passive are gonna be turned into actives.

for example bloodlust could be activated from a strike, would this make it useless? at all, since when u go 1st whit a bm or a bh u still dont benefit of ur passive because ur hp are maxed; or u could activate reruote whit an energy cost, making it usefull since u would be spending ep that u can start to regain the nxt turn; or you could decide where to apply ur hibrid armor (defence or resistence) so u could still use it as a counter to smoke/malf.

So i keep hearing on how this game is unbalanced, on how all the ideas that the staff wants to introduce are sht, but still i cant read any suggest, and right now all the rest is justs speculation

Epic	Post #: 32

8/26/2013 7:31:56

goldslayer1
Member

@kosmo
exactly we dont know the details. there is a big lack of developer interaction when it comes to things like balance.
i dont mean your average release. i mean balance.

things like balance should be discussed more (and way before the balance change is suppose to go live) so players can have an input on such changes, and the devs have more feedback to improve on what they're trying to do.

and if you need to see suggestions, id happily provide some links of ideas i posted regarding balance.
but have to stopped to consider that maybe there's less ideas being suggested because people think its not going to make any difference?

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 8/26/2013 7:32:20 >

Post #: 33

8/26/2013 16:40:44

Exploding Penguin
Moderator

quote:

This will completely ruin juggernaut. Only reason why juggernauts can win are because of passives(BH and BM bloodlust, TM and CH armor, and TMs reroute and deadly aim). Basically Strength builds will be a must for most classes and ruin the whole reason why they made the stat system the way it is in Omega.

First of all, juggernaut is already somewhat ruined. It's literally raw luck with build matchups, and some combinations are almost impossible to beat no matter what.

Second, if it has such an impact on juggs then why doesn't it have an impact on the lower levels the jugg is facing against?

To be honest I can't wait for this to happen. I'm always open to changes in skills because I like the new things that come out; I'm getting quite bored of the current classes and skill trees. Also, this will make it so that skills will be more worth investing in (CH builds and TLM builds were pretty much spending over half of their skill points on passives every build, no matter what), which could lead to a large range of more build possibilities.

Epic	Post #: 34

8/26/2013 17:29:44

Warmaker04
Member

Totally dissagreed with the chance... but i`m not really sure if some archknight or admin will answer here.... But i know this will only make the things worse.... In gamma/delta we had too much players even server Doom was open.... in omega that was a clear robbery for us... we spent all the var and credits and only 15%-30% refund... people stopped buying varium, and the ED went down down and down........ Guys remember Infernal war? remember where we could make like 2vs2 parties of 10 people in homes? the game is getting very boring... a lot of people quitted ED the responsible Omega is the blame for all of this............... ED lost a lot of people, and more... as i said above people fell too much robbed at the start of omega... a lot of changes to ED must be done.... The players are on mostly because the friends and dread war... <----- The most interesting thing atm to do. yeah the mission design is very good, but still a lot of changes must be done... but not like this -- passive - active -. and the whole game is based on luck.... I want to say more, atleast 50 sentences but i will leave it at this.... I hope some people understand what i mean. And i dont want to offend anyone with this post. Tc

Post #: 35

8/26/2013 18:24:11

goldslayer1
Member

quote:

To be honest I can't wait for this to happen. I'm always open to changes in skills because I like the new things that come out; I'm getting quite bored of the current classes and skill trees.

this is probably a big issue with the current class format.
after a while (especially years for those who been around a while) it becomes dull because its like your just doing the same thing over and over.

and thats another big issue with the class format, if you want to add new skills you have to
A: replace a skill in an already existing class
or
B: create a new class

and both options bring forth more problems regarding balance between the classes.

if only there was a class system that could add more creativity, build variety, and be able to add new skills into the game without disrupting the the balance in a major way by changing a class or adding a new one. while at the same time bringing in more excitement. :o

i think I've seen such suggestion before

Post #: 36

8/26/2013 21:55:01

Dual Thrusters
Member

quote:

Second, if it has such an impact on juggs then why doesn't it have an impact on the lower levels the jugg is facing against

Because lower levels don't rely on passives as much. All they focus on is getting synergy for a skill they can spam.

MQ

Post #: 37

8/28/2013 13:52:13

Segawoman
Member

quote:

Only reason why juggernauts can win are because of passives(BH and BM bloodlust, TM and CH armor, and TMs reroute and deadly aim). Basically Strength builds will be a must for most classes and ruin the whole reason why they made the stat system the way it is in Omega.

You do know that this would be worst for the players against the Juggernaut, right?

Epic	Post #: 38

8/28/2013 14:09:53

ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!

To be honest, this change is too big and widespread in order to calculate on paper. We don't know what's being changed and how. Chances are that many passives will be buffed to fit their now active role. The armors might end up giving 20 def/res or 10 on both. Bloodlust might give even more health back when you attack, or it might give you a small boost of health when cast and then apply the passive health regen it currently has.

But to answer the question. Do we need it? Yes. Many of you say that passives are supposed to define a class and give it a trait, but the problem is that it's too effective. In pretty much every case, someone will invest well over 5 points into a passive skill. If you don't use a passive, you're at a huge disadvantage. We could keep passives, but the tree would need reworked so we would always have the skill and couldn't invest in it to make it better and only relied on level scaling.

AQ

DF

MQ

Post #: 39

8/28/2013 16:51:58

Shajun Ki
Member

I have a bad feeling about this...this could either be great or absolutely horrid and cause the majority of players to quit.

Post #: 40

8/28/2013 20:18:33

Archlord Raistlin
Member

The one thing I dont see any comment about is the energy required to support all of these active skills.

The reason most put 1/2 their skill points into passives is because it is impossible to support the active skills with
enough energy, unless you are happy to be a sitting duck with no defenses or strength or HP . I cant support the
active skills I have right now...

As a CH I can't at all justify spending 2/3 of my energy on multi, when it does such lame damage and everyone
out there can steal my energy. So do you think I will be able to support plasma armor, static charge and shadow
arts in the new system, on top of the regular skills we might want to use? Of course not, we will all have to choose
some skill to spam and let the others go by the wayside, just like it has always been.

...and those classes or builds that dont have those energy/skill support issues will get flooded and we will all likely
fight like blood mages. I am sure the intent is good and the dev's think it will be an improvement, but most times
there are unforseen consequences which really mess up the game further and don't get fixed. ED becomes
committed to the change...then tries to fix it by changing something else.

Seems to me that a major change like this could save the game or easily kill it...no pressure there.

Post #: 41

8/28/2013 20:25:15

Ranloth
Banned

quote:

The one thing I dont see any comment about is the energy required to support all of these active skills.

There's no mention of these skills costing Energy either - just a turn to activate.

AQ

Post #: 42

8/28/2013 21:24:54

Archlord Raistlin
Member

Then a high support merc with max bunker and artillary would be a great class...going first is a big advantage now,
but sounds like it may be even more advantageous if you can hit prior to any opponent's activation, follow up with
artillary and then steal most of their energy to bunker again...not to mention the crit and aux synergy.

Or as a CH, I could spend a couple of turns activating passives, shielding or healing , trying to stay alive, before even making an attack. Doesn't sound that strategic to me... Why would you even try anything other than a quick kill, offensive build, when pure survival might take 2 or 3 rounds?

< Message edited by Archlord Raistlin -- 8/28/2013 21:33:07 >

Post #: 43

8/29/2013 3:17:32

goldslayer1
Member

quote:

Why would you even try anything other than a quick kill, offensive build, when pure survival might take 2 or 3 rounds?

same thing for str/supp mages and azrael gun (or without azrael gun)
high support and decent strength
Malf
Azrael's will / deadly aim
Auxiliary

Post #: 44

8/29/2013 4:12:33

ReinVI
Member

Like the one person said when it comes down to it Passives define a class Mercs have passive armor without that what are they? there a hunter with a hammer... what's a mage without reroute and deadly aim? a crappy merc... and a hunter without bloodlust? you get a pile of crap honestly these changes cannot help this game no matter how "good" they think these changes will be.
In literally every other rpg I have ever played I always chose passive because 1. the bonuses always supported my natural ability, what's a tank without health/ armor? 2. What's a rouge without crit chance? and and what's a mage without some kind of mana regen/ ranged support help? taking away these passives is like stripping the 'soul' from the class and blurring the lines between the classes. Going through with this you might as well just make one super class where you just pick whatever skills you want! you'll get pretty much the same thing... some kind of franken-class that in all honesty ruins the game more than it makes it 'fun'.

Even in games like fallout when you choose perks sure there were always "those passives that everybody chooses because it makes you OP" did I always take them? no.. unless they helped my build like crit chance + why would I use that if I'm using weapons that can't crit? the same thing could be said about perks that involve active skills ( like being able to sneak up behind robots and deactivate them ) is it a good skill? sure it is! if your build is focused on sneak if I'm running around as a tank in metal armor and a minigun then no the active skills pointless to me. It feels sort of like that the devs are "forcing" the players into using these other skills that in all honesty don't support the build they are trying to make. It's like a support build being forced to use stun grenade. It's a pointless skill for that build but if say the guy was using a high dex build then maybe he would be more inclined to use that skill. Instead of killing passives the only truly balanced part of most classes ( a lot of other active skills are just freaking ridiculous like tm's and there infinite mana.... and mercs and there free emp / mana recharge ) why don't the devs fix the active skills and make them more appealing to use? the problem with stun grenade? that stun chance is nice especially if you have SA but it's damage is so horrendous can you really blame people for actively avoiding it? just like plasma grenade along with plasma rain/ multi-shot. There energy consumption is so high that the pitiful 85% damage your going to do doesn't justify the use of that skill. Is it the passives fault the active skills suck? no it's the balancing from the devs for those active skills.

Post edited to remove unnecessary and unconstructive content ~M4B

< Message edited by Melissa4Bella -- 9/3/2013 16:03:16 >

_____________________________

Join the legion because being a rebel is Overrated

Epic	Post #: 45

9/3/2013 7:03:28

Xendran
Member

The change won't happen for around a year, based on previous update delays.

AQ

DF

Post #: 46

9/3/2013 7:43:31

kosmo
Member

in my opinion passives shouldnt make you waste a turn to be activated, this would make evry battle a win or loose match, where who goes 1st usually wins; but i also agree whit the fact that passives are too much of a requirment, so it would be alot more responsable to rework and balance passives making them scale only whit lvl.

Epic	Post #: 47

9/3/2013 16:56:47

toopygoo
Member

to be fair, a change this big will need testing for a while before my answer can be finalized. ive been looking forward to this change for a while now. although i dont play a fraction of what i used to, this will definitely give a large change of balance to all classes. i say "change" with foresight to both good and bad. tanks now will have a a new advantage, since one single turn should not be the cause of their downfall, however as some people have calculated, certain classes have one or two extra stats which can give a large advantage when those numbers matter. if a mercenary faces a techmage caster. no longer does the merc have to worry so much about reroute, whereas the caster does not have to worry about hybrid. however, if the merc starts the battle by activating their armor, then the mage has a chance to activate their reroute, whiche regardless of level, gives it a boost. however, the merc having the skill of static smash available, should definitely get the win in this scenario, and i think this change will reintroduce a more rock-paper-scissors, where merc>mage>bounty>merc. of course this isnt always the case, but im looking at this with a very generalized, skill, not core, reliant builds.

this was a brief 10 minute thought, with i admit very little insight on outliers and % and other important figures, but i hope some of you can be a little more like me and admit that there are some good sides to this change occurring.

some other things to look out for:

azraels weapons losing buff from deadly aim.
massacre loses buff when pairing with bloodlust.
mercenaries become less of tanks
mages lose the whole recycling ability

this increases the lopsidedness of builds, which i think will increase the enjoyment of 2v2's greatly, and boss battles.

it will greatly monotize 1v1's, but who knows, the game is only as fun as creative you can be :D

it will lower the odds of winning in juggernaut

i know i pointed out mainly the positives i could think of. Dont claim its biased because i am trying to optimistic so i dont care about those remarks. Battle on my friends, enjoy the upcming bloodshed :D

_____________________________

Post #: 48

9/3/2013 20:16:58

DeathGuard
Member

I don't think cores should be a factor in battle, they should help but not give an advantage to the player who has them. If active effects weren't that strong but weak and useful, they would be doing a good function in PvP.

Post edited to remove off-topic comment/spam, which isn't allowed ~M4B

< Message edited by Melissa4Bella -- 9/4/2013 5:08:49 >

AQ

DF

Post #: 49

9/4/2013 12:00:05

Predator9657
Member

^

quote:

they should help but not give an advantage

How does that work?

Epic	Post #: 50

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