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RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread

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1/28/2015 10:07:11   
crabpeople
Member

It's Ok Ash. As you said, you've been mentioning those changes since last year. And I have faith cuz it will probably end up turning for the best (although expect lots of complaints once it gets introduced). It makes no sense to be destroying everything in your path with 1 click (except doomknight).

Going back to ninja. Haven't used it since our discussion, what did you change?

quote:

Well, if Dodge becomes more meaningful, then two turns for Fade to Shadows isn't a problem anymore. Right now it's not optimal, but I can imagine it being efficient against multiple enemies if Dodge actually works. Problem solved, then.
.

Azan: Shadow walk is useful to mitigate the damage recieved outside of fade. I'm finding it pretty good in mult battles. Also ninja is above average in mult battles (like necro) because the mult has only 1 turn cd.

< Message edited by crabpeople -- 1/28/2015 10:09:35 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 76
1/28/2015 10:20:22   
Dracojan
Member

im very thankful for all the class balance and also stats balance. after a while the gameplay will once again be good and enjoyable.
DF  Post #: 77
1/28/2015 11:33:20   
Sakurai the Cursed
Member

Don't get me wrong Ash, I know we've known about incoming stat changes for a long while, I'm excited that it's coming soon and I'm positive I'll love all the changes (really, I love everything you've done for DF lately, and as an aside I don't think you really get enough thanks for that, so - Sincerely, thank you very much! You've really re-invigorated DF imo), but... You're asking for feedback for something based on systems we don't yet have. I understand that there won't be any revolutionary changes that would require redoing classes, but even things as simple as making B/D/P better or reducing our Crit will still make a difference to non-gut-feeling evaluations of classes. Ninja is a perfect example, since it has lots of Dodge; skills which could be seen currently as sub-standard may become incredible, and I'm sure auto-crit skills will be affected similarly (hurray, btw!). And all that is great! But I don't see how we can accurately evaluate the class as it is without knowing what those changes are, is all.

< Message edited by Sakurai the Cursed -- 1/28/2015 11:39:23 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 78
1/28/2015 16:25:01   
Azan
Member

quote:

Azan: Shadow walk is useful to mitigate the damage recieved outside of fade. I'm finding it pretty good in mult battles. Also ninja is above average in mult battles (like necro) because the mult has only 1 turn cd.

To mitigate the damage, Shadow walk is useful, yes. But there are enemies in the game who require you to be untouchable. And I wasn't talking about Ninja's offensive capacity in multiple battles (which I agree is good), but about Ninja's defensive capacity. Which is why Dodge actually meaning something will solve the problem.
Post #: 79
1/29/2015 1:37:07   
DarkLore
Member

You mentioned new helms and capes I think Ash. Any hints on the looks? Hopefully they retain Ninja's Art Quality. Wouldn't want an overly detailed helm with Ninja.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 80
1/29/2015 14:18:14   
crabpeople
Member

Ok I'm back after running some tests and I'm here to keep whinning .

I've been testing with the extreme non-hard mode cursed skeleton (the boss of the cloack scrap artifact) and as I already said, ninja has no damage.
I compared both ninja and technomancer with a full defensive strategy (avoid getting hit or losing hp as much as you can) and after testing twice with each class I found:
-Technomancer: Took him about 30 turns to finish him with a stat build of 0 WIS and the table of elements being bugged (only with that boss, yet I kept using it ).
-Ninja: Took him about 34 turns. Also going full defensive and using lotus mainly as the poison agent. I realized it's not worth to use the other poisons when you can just use catalyst on the enemy (yeah one of those "in crits we trust" arguments). If I kept using dot's It would took 40 turns maybe.

Ninja right now is too defensive (I had almost a perfect defense without even using shadow walk and paralyzing slash) and lacks in offense. Yeah I know it's a dot reliant class and it will deal less damage than the other classes because we're still on the crit world (that's why pyromancer is the least offensive dc class). It will probably be or feel better once Ash changes are made, yet I'm afraid it will still be underpowered.

As some other forum members stated, we can't give more useful feedback till we don't know what changes Ash is going to do (they will be posted on a DN thread eventually).

one of my suggestions remains: If you're not going to increase the damage then please make the dot's last longer (except lotus).

< Message edited by crabpeople -- 1/29/2015 14:26:22 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 81
1/29/2015 14:33:27   
Ash
Member


 Wait, you mean a defensive leaning class who's main focus is to DoT up the target is hitting the sweet spot of the 20-40 turn boss turn model? And that's BEFORE I adjust the outlying HP's on Bosses? It's almost like it fits exactly where it should in the Tier 2 track. D:
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 82
1/29/2015 14:48:08   
crabpeople
Member

Necromancer: 21 turns (going full defensive too).

Well necro is probably the best t2 class after all. But don't you think it's a bit of a shame having necro passive doing more damage (max passive) than the ninja dot's (having 2 dot's 100% of the time is doable but 3 it's just ocassional).

My problem with ninja right now is: Why should I pick this class over technomancer that performs way better at mult battles and has hp sustain? Ninja has better defenses than techno but it's not worth.

Maybe I'm wrong but the idea I got in my mind for this ninja preview is "defensive class with low burst damage (it's not pally,togslayer...) but good sustained damage (over average) for the t2 standards".

< Message edited by crabpeople -- 1/29/2015 14:51:32 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 83
1/29/2015 15:13:32   
Ash
Member


 Avoiding damage is worth more than most other things. This is the same kind of argument that I had when Techno was in testing and people kept saying "well I know it's good at multi battles but it doesn't seem as good as it could be even IN multi battles." Yes, Ninja is not as powerful as it could be, but like a fictional ninja it's avoiding damage. That is worth more than straight healing. All of ninja's "avoidance" skills work over multiple turns where as Paladin's straight up healing works on that turn only. Techno has the HoT effect but its other defenses in the form of stuns are shorter. Used properly Ninja will take far less damage than Paladin or Techno ever would and as such it's paying for that in damage.

Necro's issue is it has that passive which, while it doesn't cost anything in terms of skills, it gives it a little something extra that pushes it a few turns ahead in RTK. If Necro didn't have the constant DoT effect it would be about on par with Ninja over the course of a 30 turn boss fight as it would need to use its stuns more and used it defensive abilities more. Once I get done tinkering with the DoT's on Ninja it should even out its sustain damage.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 84
1/29/2015 15:17:58   
Greldracion
Member

@Crab

First off, ninja cannot be compared to togslayer or pally because both of those armors are designed as offensive armors. Second, while technomancer has better burst against targets, ninja has better survivability options, with dots to help aid in offense. Third, ninja was made not to fill a damage niche, but survivability against multiple hit enemies. If you haven't noticed, ninja has many skills that have low mana costs. I have also tested, at least against Tomix, that ninja is very adaptable against enemies that have good continuous burst. If I were to take technomancer out against Faerdin's npc, I would die quicker because the HoT only works during my turn. ninja essentially negates the damage that Faerdin or Tomix because you can defend and nerf at the same time, giving more options to attack. Therefor, ninja would be better in this situation because the ability to negate large portions of damage, while having a continuous damage output of your own, can make ninja a viable class for living through a quest.
AQ  Post #: 85
1/29/2015 16:17:54   
crabpeople
Member

First I clearly wrote "defensive class with low burst damage (it's not pally,togslayer...)". I never compared ninja with an offensive class.

quote:

. Second, while technomancer has better burst against targets, ninja has better survivability options, with dots to help aid in offense. Third, ninja was made not to fill a damage niche, but survivability against multiple hit enemies. If you haven't noticed, ninja has many skills that have low mana costs.
I agree and I mentioned the decent-low mana cost at my post at 3rd page.

quote:

I have also tested, at least against Tomix, that ninja is very adaptable against enemies that have good continuous burst. If I were to take technomancer out against Faerdin's npc, I would die quicker because the HoT only works during my turn. ninja essentially negates the damage that Faerdin or Tomix because you can defend and nerf at the same time, giving more options to attack. Therefor, ninja would be better in this situation because the ability to negate large portions of damage, while having a continuous damage output of your own, can make ninja a viable class for living through a quest.


Let's see... I'm a bit lost here. When u mention Tomix, are you talking about Tomix DMK at PVP (has 200+ bonus) or Tomix at ravenloss book 3 part 2? (you gonna need 55 turns or more to kill him in extreme). The last I mentioned deals lot's of damage but attacks randomly.

Taking down Faerdin npc... At the pvp thread, he appears as a normal deathknight (else I don't know what are you talking me about). Don't mention pvp comparing to technomancer cuz it has the debug skill that deletes the 100% of the enemy mana. Also I don't see the point of comparing classes for PvP purposes considering how secondary PvP is right now.

Ninja a viable class for living though a quest... For a normal quest sure no problem like the rest of the classes. Even base classes do the job. But ninja can't take a long quest like deepest jungle because it has no mana sustain and it's hp will fall eventually at mult battles (ninja can mitigate and protect itself with fade + dodge skill but it's not immortal like 1v1 fights).

quote:

Once I get done tinkering with the DoT's on Ninja it should even out its sustain damage.


If you make that happen I'll stop crying right away.

EDIT:
Greldracion:
While it's true that I didn't take the non-DA players into consideration, I don't think ninja is a good class for non-DA as it has the "must have" left side skills (stun,shield,crit and mult) and the rest is not defensive (the dot and 2 skills of 150% damage). So for a non-DA it's an average class that can do a 150% sustained damage and has 1 dot.

Look now at necromancer (possibly the best non-DA t2 class) it has the stun.shield,mult aswell, but has mana regen, life steal and seed + raise for the damage. Moreover it has the passive.

< Message edited by crabpeople -- 1/29/2015 17:14:49 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 86
1/29/2015 16:36:36   
Greldracion
Member

I'm sorry for not clarifying. I meant Tomix from book 3 ravenloss and Faerdin from true mortals Sea quest. While technomancer is undoubtedly better at quest with large amount of multiple enemies, ninja was specialized to deal with multi hit monsters and bosses that required the ability to limit or negate damage. One example could be the artifact boss. If you were looking at it from a different perspective, a non DA member would have a harder time beating the boss because many of the beneficial moves for dealing with the boss, mainly table of elements, gravity vortex, and force sword, would limit the amount of options you had to beat it. While it is true that a non DA tech would still have the heal, mana would start to become a concern since the class has a huge reliance on mana grenades for damage. Ninja, in this case, would be better suited for a sustained battle as you have multiple attacks to deal sustained damage, a crit move, the same sort of stun, and lower mana costs and cooldowns to keep up the pressure.
AQ  Post #: 87
1/29/2015 18:29:14   
Myra
Killing time softly


 After playing around a bit with the new ninja, I can say that I like the focus on avoiding damage and DoT effects. It fits the general ideas about ninjas, and makes the class feel distinct from other armors. I really like how the revamps have given each a class a unique feel so far.

However, ninja seems to be a bit weaker than the previously revamped classes, even of the same tier. They seemed to hold up better in really tough fights, like the Aeris Battlespire villains in book 3.

This is only a first impression, I should probably test more to find the best strategies. It makes sense that the high protection comes at the cost of damage you can do to the enemy.
But so far I found the fights I did with the new ninja a bit tedious, because it really takes quite long to defeat monsters that have more than average HP.

It is definitely a useable class again, it will survive quests and boss fight in the normal book 3 difficulty (unlike before), so in that way it's a successful revamp. But to me, it lacks the "wow factor" that the other revamps had.

The above post has a good point though - it does have more useful skills on the non-DA side than some other classes.
DF MQ  Post #: 88
1/29/2015 18:43:21   
Ash
Member


 I need to go back and lower the health of some monsters after the stat changes which will make that seem a bit less noticeable. Average HP as a whole will be dropping as players not having 60+ crit, so they deal 3 to 6 times the expected damage in a normal battle, will make it so we can actually make monsters have the intended HP. Right now they're inflated after years upon years of crit mounting up.

Ideally a normal mob should take 2-3 turns, yes you read that right, to beat. Bosses should take anywhere from 10-15 for a quick boss to 20-40 for a hard boss. War mobs should be taking 1 turn. That hasn't been enforced even WITH the HP creeping up. Something like DoomKnight is just going to be able to 1 turn most normal mobs (which I can't nerf into the proper damage ranges as much as I want to) but, as a whole, those are the ideal turns you're *supposed* to be taking. That combined with the change that makes Dodge/Parry/Block cap out full benefit at 200 points, not the "well the cap is 80 and that doesn't even give you full protection, and there's a massive diminishing returns creep behind that" it is now.

Changing the Scorpion DoT some as well as the Trinket that'll be giving you an additional, somewhat powered up, poison should also help to increase the damage potential. (Catalyst will work with that trinket fyi)
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 89
1/29/2015 18:43:44   
  133spider
Moderator


 I had a great idea in mind for the passive, I was thinking of the passive to scale with fade, walk, OR blurr (one of those three) based upon how much health you have left

I don't know why, but I have that sense of accomplishment when I beat a quest with only 1 HP

< Message edited by 133spider -- 1/29/2015 18:44:18 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 90
1/29/2015 19:45:07   
The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*


 Probably not a really big concern because the class feels quite fluid, but with many of the attacks doing similar or even the same thing, could there be some "weird" attacks and effects?

Say a DoT that starts at 2 and doubles in damage every turn?

The autocrit skill also feels pretty uncharacteristic for ninjas, what if instead of 1 big hit, it was 4 or 5 small hits? Attacking so quickly, the damage is only felt afterwards?

Right now the three DOT skills all harm for a total of 200 over 4 turns, after which Viper just does another hit while Lotus takes longer to return value. Maybe poisons have additional effects to differentiate?
-paralysis, lowers MPM
-dizziness, lowers BTH / crit
-weakness, lowers boost% and burns mp

Fade to Shadows seems weird in that it doesn't protect against pierce (presumably stabbing attacks) while it dodges against magical attacks.
DF AQW  Post #: 91
1/29/2015 19:56:40   
Ash
Member


 I tried doing a DoT effect that increased in damage every tick. (it was the main gimmicky effect I wanted to put on there more than any other) The game has an internal memory that caps out after a point. I couldn't even get it to do 4 stacks with the way it's setup now. I can do 2 stacks but that's about it. It's really annoying and something I'd like to fix but that's a flash player limit. I'd have to design a really cumbersome and wonky work around for it that would be...quite honestly prone to breaking if I did.

I can change the animation to be the spinny kick thing and then figure out another multi hit for the stun. Or I could also loop a couple of the other attacks together instead. I have to see which animations would look best together and figure that out.

Most of those are already wrapped up in the other effects so just copying them and doubling them up is redundant. The MP burn and crit lowering are the only two new ones. MP burn is already looked down on after I tried to improve it a bit for Techno as I haven't gotten a good way to constantly make all monsters use MP, so I'm gonna veto that one. The crit one possibly. I would have to find out where I can pull some damage from or where I can shuffle around effects though to add the -crit as tossing that on as well as tinkering with the DoT's means I'm going to have to bump up the MP costs somewhat significantly. The normal tinkering I would do would anyway but adding -crit would increase that by a lot as well as put it over budget.

I can swap Pierce in and Magic out. Since Pierce will actually work after the engine update it shouldn't be too big of an issue.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 92
2/27/2015 23:20:49   
Azan
Member

I played around a bit with Ninja. And now, it's truly unhittable. I now have 90 END, 90 WIS and 200 LUK, which is for me the greatest "evading build". Even without STR, I still manage to deal very decent damage while being perma-shielded or so. I just love being unhittable. Now Ninja's soooo fun to play with.

I have only one comment to make. Shadow Strike says "You have to be affected by Busshidu". However, since the Busshidu skill name changed into "Vanish", it may be a little confusing.
Post #: 93
2/27/2015 23:37:00   
Dracojan
Member

i fought fma in pvp and i used my shield. fma used a skill that reduces my mpm by 50 but it didnt just reduce it, it had completely overwritten the effect of my skill. so my shield ended right away and i ended having ~0 mpm defences.
same thing happened when i used a shield with rogue and my pet dragon gave me 12block the same turn and my shield was gone.
DF  Post #: 94
2/28/2015 15:15:11   
Azan
Member

Found something new with the class. I saved it with the matching items. Now when my main (Male) enters the game, he wears Female Ninja version. ( Bearded women mode activated.) I unsaved it, but now Ninja is stuck to Female version. Only Ninja seems affected by this.
Post #: 95
1/26/2017 0:25:33   
Kaika
Member

The link to the ninja armor page is broken, just an FYI.
DF  Post #: 96
1/29/2017 10:31:04   
Renn Shadowheart
Member

Apparently, there was a Ninja trinket that would buff Ninja?

Where can that be found?
AQW Epic  Post #: 97
1/29/2017 10:33:08   
SonicTbear
Member


 Well, it just buffs the poison skill. But it's found the same place as other ninja accessories are. (Thyton; Book 1; I don't know if it's found in Book 3 as well.)
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 98
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