RE: =DF= Technomancer Armor Discussion Thread


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8/23/2014 15:34:24

Bagofbricks
Member

Well i was never a big technomancer fan, but i decided to finish training it finally and played around with it a bit, and the updates are actually quite nice. The drill stun is frustrating due to the middle attack being blocked every time, so once thats removed and its just the two hits that will be much nicer. And i agree about the previous comment with mana grenades being split into 3 hits for each grenade. One question i have is the skill that can stun all enemies, is it 50% chance to stun all, or 50% chance per enemy, with a possibility of working on all?

< Message edited by Bagofbricks -- 8/23/2014 15:46:38 >

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Post #: 26

8/23/2014 18:41:09

Sakurai the Cursed
Member

quote:

There's no way at present to make it "detect" a single target or a multi target and adjust as needed.

But didn't Necro's old multi have different damage depending on the amount of enemies? If so, couldn't you do something like, for example, 125% expected damage per enemy, by doing 5 hits of 25% for 1 enemy, 50% for 2 enemies, and 75% for 3?

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Post #: 27

8/23/2014 18:55:06

Ash
Member

quote:

One question i have is the skill that can stun all enemies, is it 50% chance to stun all, or 50% chance per enemy, with a possibility of working on all?

50% per enemy with a chance of working on all.

Sakurai the Cursed - That was gimmicky and kinda half done right. I can try to adapt it but it caused other issues that bugged other aspects which is why I didn't try messing with it.

AQW

Post #: 28

8/23/2014 19:45:32

Lord Ferno
Member

hmm... to be honest the partially revamped technomancer doesn't fit my play style so I still will be sticking to master soulweaver (especially when they make it so that it works with the artifact).

Post #: 29

8/23/2014 21:50:50

The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*

quote:

3. Mana Burst Grenades
Deals damage based on your current Mana and your Wis

Wis Addition = (your Wis / 5) If it would be less than 5, it auto turns into 5.
Mana Addition = (Current Mana / Max Mana) * 100
Damage = Wis Addition + Mana Addition

Crunching numbers...

200 WIS and 2000 / 2000 mana...
(1975 / 2000) * 100 + (200 / 5) = 138.75
-----------------
200 WIS and 1500 / 2000 mana...
(1475 / 2000) * 100 + (200 / 5) = 113.75
200 WIS and 1000 / 2000 mana...
(975 / 2000) * 100 + (200 / 5) = 88.75
200 WIS and 500 / 2000 mana...
(475 / 2000) * 100 + (200 / 5) = 63.75

Unless damage is actually 100% + WIS bonus + Mana bonus, in which case a nearly-full MP Grenade deals close to 240% damage, we'd be dealing below-normal attack damage the instant we reach 75% MP?

I still think Force-Sword does way too little.
Locking it to crit means that it will never go above 150% damage (which translates to ~300), but 300 damage for 25 mp is pretty expensive. Mana Grenades costs the same and gives more mileage until you go below 50% mp, which rarely happens unless you're chaining quests without healing, and is pretty much not going to happen due to the fact that a full heal button exists right in your Quest Log.

Necro's Final deals 3 hits of 70% with 100 crit for an effective 420%
Paladin's Zeal dealt 3 hits of 75%
Ninja's Deathwish dealt 3 hits of 80%

By now, 2 hits of 75% seems less like a final and more like a mid-combo.
Given how it has the same cost as Mana Grenades, it should at least be useful for a longer duration than just the amounts of time where you go below 50% mp.
Would 2 hits of 90% (at 100 crit, effectively 360%) be too strong?

AQW

Post #: 30

8/23/2014 21:54:05

Hemabody
Member

It was a weak class , only useful in PVP , but other classes proved to be more useful , so Technomancer was abandoned , and Ash seemed to return it to life by this revamp , making it very useful , espically by it's trio stuns and trio multis , and by being more powerful , it proved it can be the most useful class for PVP.

AQW	Post #: 31

8/23/2014 22:56:36

Kingman93
Member

Been trying it a little bit and I like the revamp a lot! I really like the idea of splitting the mana grenades damage into 3 for each grenade and I agree that force sword's damage should be increase a little bit to either 80% or 90% each hit with 100% to critical. I also feel that his class would do better with a mana regen as it helps it's main damage dealing skill continue to stay strong. It also fits the theme well as a technomancer is able to increase his energy supply so that he can continue to use his skills and keep them strong. Other than that, I like it!

DF	Post #: 32

8/23/2014 23:13:29

Ash
Member

quote:

Unless damage is actually 100% + WIS bonus + Mana bonus, in which case a nearly-full MP Grenade deals close to 240% damage, we'd be dealing below-normal attack damage the instant we reach 75% MP?

What? How are you getting below normal attack damage below 75% MP? At 50% you're doing 190% damage with 200 Wis. You always do 100% damage, skills add boost which adjustes the damage dealt. When you see things like, "you do 140% damage" it means you're doing your 100% damage plus 40 boost. In the case of Grenades you're doing 100% plus whatever you mana/max mana is, plus whatever Wis you have. You'd have to be at 15% mana to even be doing normal damage, and even then you'd still be doing a bit above normal even if you have no Wis since it has a default to +5% if your Wis would cause you to be below that. Even if you only put 100 to Wis for a decent amount of Mana that STILL gives you a flat 20% extra damage. Regardless of how much mana you have left, if you have 100 Wis you will always do above your base damage.

quote:

By now, 2 hits of 75% seems less like a final and more like a mid-combo.
Given how it has the same cost as Mana Grenades, it should at least be useful for a longer duration than just the amounts of time where you go below 50% mp.
Would 2 hits of 90% (at 100 crit, effectively 360%) be too strong?

Mana grenades only doing 240% damage maxed out with 200 Wis says hello. The multiple multi's that cost damage because you have more than 1 say hello. Force is stronger than Mana Grenades fully decked out at max mana. They are more expensive because they have a relatively short cool down and hold up damage wise until you hit 30% mana, but even then it deals more because your other attacks are largely multi's which don't break 150% damage.

It's also sounding like your not really thinking about the numbers your talking about and just asking for a buff for a buff. You compared Mana Grenades to it when, in the same post, you're not sure what Grenades are doing but still claimed that it "gives more mileage". 300% damage is more than Grenades will do unless you factor in ele weakness, where Force would still do more because it would be affected by the same weakness. While you can use Grenades multiple times in one span of a Force cooldown you're still looking at a large upfront hit that has less of a cooldown than other Finals that you're comparing it to, and Grenades will be dropping in damage because of the other attacks used. Necro's is two turns longer, Paladin's is Ele locked so it gets ele comp for more damage, and Ninja's is most likely going to be reliant on another effect to deal more damage and will have the same default crit damage as Techno.

Techno is meant to be a multi target, semi control class. While it can perform at single target damage with a spammable attack in Grenades and an upfront attack in Force, the majority of the time you're going to be dancing around your stun cooldowns for avoiding damage. Could I raise the damage of Force? Yes. That would mean cutting damage from somewhere else. I min/max classes while leaving a small amount of room for upwards growth. In the case of Techno I used that small amount of room paying for the 1 turn stun to make sure you had multiples of it. It would need to lose something damage wise to make Force stronger. Don't get me wrong, you can use it on single battles and it has the kit to do that, but that's not its focus nor intent. You wouldn't expect Dragonslayer to be epic at killing togs.

The best way I can answer the constant, "But can you just add X% damage to it..." is this. Feelings and "this looks like it needs" don't do anything to persuade me. Like I said at the very top of the post with the skills. I need numbers and testing. Lots of numbers and testing. You want a skill buffed? Go test it, record your damage. Compare it to other skills on the class and record their damage. Make a chart, make an in-depth analysis like what was done with MSW where a few times there was a long broken down set of numbers. I don't like theory crafting and prefer actually looking at hard testing data, but if that's all you can do, do it over a 5, 10, or 20 turn model. Compare it to other classes, ask questions like "how much power is X, Y and Z skill costing the class because of what it does?" Shot posts motivated by feelings don't get things changed. I need lots of numbers, lots of testing, and lots of detailed thought. I have to do huge number crunching before I even put fingers to keyboard for coding. If you aren't spending at least a fraction of that time putting in the leg work to show where I might have missing something I'm not changing it based on "it looks weak". My calculator and I have far to good of a relationship to ignore him for that. :P

quote:

Then again, a skill that lets you repeatedly use an attack like mana grenades might be a balance issue in itself on a class that's not designed for single-target battles.

Kingman93 - This is the reason it's not getting one. Since your main spammable larger damage attack is made better with a continual mana source to regen it, instead of depleting over battle as expected, you'll deal more damage than expected which throws damage rates off. If I were to add one it would be a gimmicked deal where it would DoT the Mana right back off so you end up actually losing more mana since you aren't supposed to have a constant regen source.

New version with a few small adjustments went out a bit ago. Clear your cache to pick it up.

- Mana grenades now deals its damage over 3 hits.
- Static now deals 120% to 140% damage to all enemies. (Random, can be anywhere in between)
- Fixed an issue where Sonic Cannon wasn't dealing the proper amount of damage.
- Drillbit is now a 3 hit attack. The mysterious middle "blocked" hit is gone and replaced with an actual attempted hit. It attempts to stun on all 3 hits.

< Message edited by Ash -- 8/24/2014 0:04:11 >

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Post #: 33

8/23/2014 23:33:35

raylas
Member

Quick question, Ash: Will it be safe to save technomancer once the testing period ends, or should we wait for an announcement?

Post #: 34

8/23/2014 23:33:36

ShimmerSoul
Member

Grenades' damage is kinda huge now. o.o Just got all crits after using Rabid Byte and dealt around 1550 damage total. I DO have 150 WIS and over 2300 MP, but that's way higher than I could do before, regardless of buffs. The bonus seems to be getting applied to each individual hit now instead of the total. That DOES make it much more useful for single enemies. :P

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Post #: 35

8/24/2014 0:46:32

Dragonman
Member

This change, I assure you, won't affect the armor much, but I think Mana Grenades sounds better than Mana Burst Grenades, which is too much of a mouthful...

That might just be me :/.

Otherwise, I'm incredibly happy with the new Technomancer, and I'm going to be using it a lot more than I used to!

EDIT:Fixed typos...

< Message edited by Dragonman -- 8/24/2014 0:48:14 >

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Post #: 36

8/24/2014 1:20:38

Kingman93
Member

@Ash
How you explained it makes sense, I hadn't been thinking of the overall goal of the class. Gona go check out these 3 burst grenades now.

DF	Post #: 37

8/24/2014 1:45:10

NagisaXIkari
Member

Does Technomancer have a passive or was that just something given to Necromancer?

DF	Post #: 38

8/24/2014 9:58:14

The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*

When I said that Grenades being 240 vs Force being 300, the fact that Force is already at max critical while Grenades is not means that Grenades goes from 240 to 480.

At high levels, you end up gaining enough crit for a lot of skills that force crit to not matter.

Of course, ending up with more crit hits than uncritical hits is am issue of itself, Force is either 150 to Grenade's 240, or it is 300 to Grenade's 480.

Cooldowns for Grenades and Force should be switched if spamming Byte Grenade Overclock Grenade is that strong.
Grenade at 4 cooldown on principle is probably overpowered.

Anyway, I'll try to get some actual numbers in by comparing to Paladin / Necromancer / Dragonslayer, even.

AQW

Post #: 39

8/24/2014 11:24:19

Ash
Member

quote:

Quick question, Ash: Will it be safe to save technomancer once the testing period ends, or should we wait for an announcement?

Yes. It's replacing the old one so you'll be good.

quote:

That DOES make it much more useful for single enemies. :P

I fixed that several minutes later. Apparently : instead of ; slipped in so the actual "end" of the code line that divided the damage over 3 hits didn't have an effect. Now it does.

quote:

Does Technomancer have a passive or was that just something given to Necromancer?

Necro, Pally, and Deathknight are the only ones at this time that will have a passive. Dragonslayer will have one as well. They aren't going to be given out like candy to every class.

The ErosionSeeker - Several things to keep in mind.
- Assumed crit rate is (number of hits * .4) Oh yes, when I get back from Dragoncon (next Monday!) and have LOTS of time to adjust bunches of quests that change is getting proposed and enacted if approved.

- Multi attacks count as 3 attacks in 1. Regardless of if all hits hit they are counted as (damage per single enemy * 3) in terms of how much damage they count as since you're only meant to use them against multiple enemies. This also means that they detract from the total amount of damage that any other skills on the class are allowed to have. This is why the original Necro had that...weird and slightly gimmicky bit of code to lower the amount of damage to all enemies over 1. It didn't work well.

- Any effects placed on them count as 3 effects for the total number allowed per class. If, for example, it's only allowed 10 effects you just dropped down to 7.

- All classes are allowed one, spammable, upfront damage skill that is not tied to an automatic crit. As the overall damage output of Techno isn't high, Grenades is it. Usually it's on a 1 turn cooldown but because of the upper damage range it has a slightly extended cooldown.

Work those into your number comparisons as they are weighted in it. The biggest hint I can give you of the *right* question to ask for getting Force's damage upped is look at the "Multi attacks count as 3 attacks in 1" part and go from there. Trying to give you the right way to ask for things instead of doing a bunch of number crunching that will get a no once again.

< Message edited by Ash -- 8/24/2014 11:31:04 >

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Post #: 40

8/24/2014 11:59:26

Myra
Killing time softly

I always liked Techno because of it's steampunk theme and because it has some pretty unique abilities. It has also remained quite useful unlike some other classes that became too weak to use, it isn't great against multiple enemies, but it holds up well in boss fights even if it takes a bit longer to win than higher tier classes. I've used it as default class with my secondary since it was released.

After some playing around with the new version, I can say that I really like the changes. I'll have to get used to some things that work a bit differently now but overall I think it was definitely improved.

I always loved the debug skill that removes all of the monster's mana, I just wish there were more enemies that actually need mana for their skills. :) Now that the damage is based on how much mana the enemy has, at least the strategic value of the skill has increased a little.

The table of elements skill is my favourite change I think, it's so sciency! :D

Another nice change is that grenades now actually hits 3 times - this makes a lot more sense than before when it hit only once even though the Technomancer is throwing 3 grenades.

Thanks you Ash for all the work! It seems a great amount of thought is put in the revamping of the classes, and it's awesome that you do all this on top of the regular releases. I really look forward to see the other class revamps, if they follow the trend of Necro and Technomancer, it will be amazing ... and make it harder to decide which class to use.

Post #: 41

8/24/2014 12:12:12

The_element
Member

@Ash- Just out of curiosity, do you know why a lot pre-9.0 classes (like chicken cow armour and GPS) add strength after skill modifiers, instead of before like with most post-9.0 classes? Is there any chance this can quickly be fixed or are you going to wait till the revamp stage to iron out all the bugs? I ask this, because when strength/dexterity/intelligence is added before damage modifiers it skews the damage (either making it stronger or weaker) making it difficult to compare as percentages to other skills.

Post #: 42

8/24/2014 12:36:53

Ash
Member

The_element - It depends on how the skill is coded. In some of the older skills, like on ChickenCow's Mad attack, it's telling the game to (Weapon's Min Damage / 10) - (Weapon's Max Damage / 10) so each hit is 10% of the weapon's min and max damage. The problem with doing it like that is the game adds stats on each hit because it's adjusting the weapons min and max damage. The way all the newer classes work is they add or subtract boost instead of dividing or multiplying the weapon's damage range. Doing it that way allows for the game to properly affect stats across the entire attack instead of on each hit.

It can be fixed, it's just not affecting a large amount of classes at the moment, and some of them are already slotted to be upgraded anyway, GPS for example. I'll get to fixing ChickenCow and ECC most likely next week to make sure they aren't doing that anymore since they aren't on the list to get anything.

< Message edited by Ash -- 8/24/2014 12:41:06 >

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Post #: 43

8/24/2014 13:35:29

Bagofbricks
Member

Just tried out the class for the first time since the latest update and i must say the 3 hit mana grenade and the 3 hit drill are much nicer. Thanks ash

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Post #: 44

8/24/2014 16:16:28

Kingman93
Member

Is there anyway to see which 2 elements were picked when use the table of elements skill?

DF	Post #: 45

8/24/2014 16:19:05

Myra
Killing time softly

Yes, just look at the monster's status screen and look at it's weaknesses.

Post #: 46

8/24/2014 17:43:34

Xanaomin
Member

quote:

It's actually not. If you watch the enemy health two hits are deducted. There's an anomalous 3rd "attempted but never successful" attack in there which is causing that. I'm going to figure out where that's coming from and fix it.

First, sorry for the late reply! Was traveling. But yeah, that's what I'm doing. There's definately three hits, as was in the original class. However, the second of the three hits was always blocked. That's what I was noticing.
Logging on now, I see the issue has been fixed. So thanks. :3
As well as the grenades exploding thrice! <3 Much love Ash. Much.

< Message edited by Xanaomin -- 8/24/2014 17:44:04 >

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Post #: 47

8/25/2014 11:58:21

The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*

Comparing Technomancer to Frost Moglin, Necro, Paladin:

For MP Grenades, my WIS is 169, my MP is out of 2240.

Techno in 5 turns:
Turn 1: Byte (80% damage with 30% boost for 10 turns)
Turn 2: Mana Grenades (100 + 170 / 5 + 100*(2000/2200))
Turn 3: Overclock (Re-enables Grenades)
Turn 4: Mana Grenades (100 + 170 / 5 + 100*(2000/2200))
Turn 5: Force Sword (300%)

Now to put this into numbers, assuming a weapon with 100 base 100 random and and no attacks fail, but 0% crit rate unless guaranteed...
Turn 1: Byte (80 + 30% = 104)
Turn 2: Mana Grenades ([100 + 170 / 5 + 100*(2000/2200)] + 30% = 292.5)
Turn 3: Overclock (0)
Turn 4: Mana Grenades ([100 + 170 / 5 + 100*(2000/2200)] + 30% = 292.5)
Turn 5: Force Sword (300 + 30% = 390%)
For a total of 1079% damage over 5 turns, or an average of 215.8% each turn.

------------------------

Paladin in 5 turns:
Turn 1: Ultima Combo (4 hits of 30% at 100 crit)
Turn 2: Zeal (3 hits of 75%)
Turn 3: Phoenix Song (3 hits of 100%)
Turn 4: Spear Toss (2 hits of 100%)
Turn 5: Spinstrike (140%)

Now to put this into numbers, assuming a weapon with 100 base 100 random and and no attacks fail, but 0% crit rate unless guaranteed...
Turn 1: Ultima Combo (4 * 30 * 2= 240)
Turn 2: Zeal (3 * 75% = 225)
Turn 3: Phoenix Song (3 * 100 = 300)
Turn 4: Spear Toss (2 * 100 = 200)
Turn 5: Spinstrike (140)
For a total of 1105% damage over 5 turns, or an average of 221% each turn.

Frost Moglin in 5 turns:
Turn 1: Spirit Burst (2 hits of 120%)
Turn 2: Twig (3 hits of 100%)
Turn 3: Spirit Burst (2 hits of 120%)
Turn 4: Spirit of Giving (9 hits of 25%)
Turn 5: Spirit Burst (2 hits of 120%)

Now to put this into numbers, assuming a weapon with 100 base 100 random and and no attacks fail, but 0% crit rate unless guaranteed...
Turn 1: Spirit Burst (2 * 120 = 240)
Turn 2: Twig (3 * 100 = 300)
Turn 3: Spirit Burst (2 * 120 = 240)
Turn 4: Spirit of Giving (9 * 25 = 225)
Turn 5: Spirit Burst (2 * 120 = 240)
For a total of 1245% damage over 5 turns, or an average of 249% each turn.

Necro in 5 turns:
Turn 1: Corruption (80% damage with 40% DOT over 5 turns, total of 280%)
Turn 2: Seed (delayed 100-300% damage, assuming 200% average)
Turn 3: Dark Boon (80% damage with 30% boost for 3 turns)
Turn 4: Champion (3 hits of 70% with 100% crit)
Turn 5: Pet (160% damage)

Now to put this into numbers, assuming a weapon with 100 base 100 random and and no attacks fail, but 0% crit rate unless guaranteed...
Turn 1: Corruption (80 + 40 + 8 Fear = 128)
Turn 2: Seed (0 + 40 + 16 Fear = 56)
Turn 3: Dark Boon (80 + 30% + 40 + 24 Fear = 168)
Turn 4: Final (420 + 30% + 40 + 32 Fear = 618)
Turn 5: Pet (160 + 160 + 160 + 30% + 40 + 32 Fear = 696)
For a total of 1666% damage over 5 turns, or an average of 333.2% each turn.

For Fear, I'm counting it as 8 damage per charge to a max of 32.

Adding in a (current expected value for near Level 80 players), 70% crit...

Technomancer: Only Force Sword does not receive crit% boost
Total of 1561.3% damage over 5 turns, or an average of 312.26% each turn.

Paladin: Only Ultima does not receive crit% boost
Total of 1710.5% damage over 5 turns, or an average of 342.1% each turn.

FMA: No skills are 100% crit
Total of 2116.5% damage over 5 turns, or an average of 423.3% each turn.

Necro: Only Champion does not receive crit% boost
Total of 2343.6% damage over 5 turns, or an average of 468.72% each turn.

So at the moment, Technomancer is weaker than Paladin against no-resist/no-weakness single monsters.
Assuming that it was against 3 monsters, Technomancer fares a bit better, gaining skills that deal an effective 420, 390, and 375, but...

Techno in 5 turns against 3 enemies:
Turn 1: Mana Grenades (100 + 170 / 5 + 100*(2000/2200))
Turn 2: Photon Bow (3 hits of 140%)
Turn 3: Static (3 hits of 120-140%, average of 130%)
Turn 4: Black Hole (3 hits of 125%)
Turn 5: Mana Grenades (100 + 170 / 5 + 100*(2000/2200))

Now to put this into numbers, assuming a weapon with 100 base 100 random and and no attacks fail, but 0% crit rate unless guaranteed...
Turn 1: Mana Grenades (100 + 170 / 5 + 100*(2000/2200) = 225)
Turn 2: Photon Bow (3 * 140 = 420)
Turn 3: Static (3 * 130 = 390)
Turn 4: Black Hole (3 * 125 = 375)
Turn 5: Mana Grenades (100 + 170 / 5 + 100*(2000/2200) = 225)

Monster 1: 845
Monster 2: 395
Monster 3: 395
Effective total damage of 1635, split over 5 turns to equal 327
Adding in 70% crit...
Monster 1: 1436
Monster 2: 671.5
Monster 3: 671.5
Effective total damage of 2779, split over 5 turns to equal 555.8

So only during multi battles does Tech beat the current king of tier 2, Necromancer.
However, its cooldowns on Bow / Static / Black Hole are 4, 4, and 10.
The class has weaker damage output than pre-vamp classes outside of multi battles, but its cooldowns are too inconvenient to actually use in multi battles.

Since the class is supposed to be against multiple enemies, then it makes less sense for its strongest single-target skill to have the shortest cooldown.
Mana Grenades has a cooldown of 4, which means using Overclock immediately after it lets you use Grenades twice in 3 turns, and the loop continues the instant the 4 turns clock runs out.
Drillbit also has a very short cooldown (6) for what it is; a 2-turn stun that attempts to connect 3 times.

Overly powerful skills like Grenades and Drillbit are treated to low cooldowns, while fair skills such as Table of Elements has a huge 9-turn cooldown.

If anything, I think both Grenades and Drillbit should have increased cooldowns, while Table of Elements and say, Photon Bow / Static receive reduced cooldowns.
Black Hole's 50% chance to stun enemies balances the fact that it's supposed to be the third multi on Technomancer.

AQW

Post #: 48

8/25/2014 13:00:02

Dracojan
Member

quote:

100 base 100 random

im pretty sure you mean 100 min and 100 max which is 100 base and 0 random dmg.

DF	Post #: 49

8/25/2014 13:16:08

Ash
Member

100 min and 100 max is not 100 base and 0 random. It's different than AQ in that sense. It's literally 100-100 not 100-0.

quote:

If anything, I think both Grenades and Drillbit should have increased cooldowns, while Table of Elements and say, Photon Bow / Static receive reduced cooldowns.
Black Hole's 50% chance to stun enemies balances the fact that it's supposed to be the third multi on Technomancer.

You missed what I said in the previous post I guess.

Table would get a lowered duration then to get a lowered cooldown. You don't get to have a way to overlap debuffs like that.

Grenades is the one spammable skill. It gets a shorter cooldown for that. Drillbit has a 2 turn duration rather than a 3 turn duration so it gets a shorter cooldown for that.

Again, in big bolded letters this time. You are asking the wrong questions. The cooldowns are pretty much standard by effects. I can't gimmick those lower. Go re-read post 41, that will tell you why I'm saying no. You aren't taking everything I said there into account and you're just throwing out numbers. Like I said before, Multi attacks count as MULTIPLE attacks in one. They are weighted more heavily than a normal attack because of what they are.

< Message edited by Ash -- 8/25/2014 13:20:22 >

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Post #: 50

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