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RE: Rebalanced Cores

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11/3/2013 7:28:52   
martinsen5
Member

@Noobatron x3000, If you compare Azrael's Will to other cores, it's cost exceeds them all by far. Is it reasonable? Not really. As it stands right now, most of the players using Azrael's a few days ago choose not to, unless their class regains energy. Tbh it should be lowered from 20 to 15 IMO, 30 EP is just ridiculous.
AQW Epic  Post #: 26
11/3/2013 8:16:55   
Pemberton
Member
 

 I regret ever buying this Azrael promo. I buy it. Then nerf 80% damage. Now I do 3 damage for skills. Just great. Then now I have to use 20 + 15 = 35 energy
to use cores I paid for...Now I cannot even use them, if I use them I lose. Thank you Titan.
Post #: 27
11/3/2013 9:57:57   
Cyber Dream
Member

@Pemberton rethink your stats and build then....it's that simple.
AQW Epic  Post #: 28
11/3/2013 12:50:59   
DeathGuard
Member

quote:

I regret ever buying this Azrael promo. I buy it. Then nerf 80% damage. Now I do 3 damage for skills. Just great. Then now I have to use 20 + 15 = 35 energy
to use cores I paid for...Now I cannot even use them, if I use them I lose. Thank you Titan.
Wrong, you never paid for such cores or promo, they were not bought, rather they were a bonus that came from a 10k varium package like every other promo. You got the 10k varium along with the promo as a bonus so you can't be saying criticizing something that came by free. If it was bought, I would agree but it was never bought. Devs could easily just give away the 10k varium and oblige you to buy apart the "promos" that are free currently.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 29
11/3/2013 16:34:18   
martinsen5
Member

@DeathGuard, Isn't it the other way around? Promotional packages clearly focus on the items, rather than the 10 k varium. If anything I'd say the varium comes free with the items, as it even says "+ 10, 000 varium" in the corner, not "+ these items!" There is a reason you can buy 12 000 varium for the same price.
AQW Epic  Post #: 30
11/3/2013 16:39:24   
zion
Member

Way off topic guys - clearly semantics - what came first the promo or the 10k Varium?

On topic - this is how pvp games work: you had a core that gave a clear p2w edge for 3/4 of a year... and it was finally nerfed a bit... give gratitude for the edge you enjoyed and buy the next OP promo core if you want to keep it.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 31
11/3/2013 16:50:11   
DeathGuard
Member

@Martinsen5: Eh, the 12k varium was recently added, not even close to the date where previous promos like Azrael were in-game. It has been mentioned several times what you are buying is the 10k varium itself and not the promos. It was that way back in the previous phases and still is.
Also how does 10k varium can be free? It costs $50, the promo won't cost $50, if that was the case, only fools would buy it for that price.


< Message edited by DeathGuard -- 11/3/2013 16:54:14 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 32
11/3/2013 17:26:22   
Noobatron x3000
Member

Azrael is by far the most powerful core out their by far . If its used correctly it doesn't just change a game it ends it leaving the opponent either forced to waste part of their heal and generally lose thro it or die sooner. The cores in the correct hands made certain builds completely unbeatable this mp cost was needed and I do not think it should be lowered honestly I think you got off lightly with 20mp its fair power vs cost.
Post #: 33
11/3/2013 17:30:41   
lionblades
Member

Azrael is perfectly fair as is. They are the most gamebreaking cores and if you dont admit that that just being biased. Plus, after playing around 45 2vs2 battles there are still plenty of people using it with good effects so to those who say the statement "its useless" is invalid.
AQW  Post #: 34
11/3/2013 17:33:57   
Ranloth
Banned


 Guys, let's not argue about promos - it's completely different topic.

What DeathGuard is saying was true, until the introduction of 12K Varium package. If you get the 10K one, you're paying for the Varium and the promo, but prior to the 12K Varium package (for the same price), you were paying for Varium and items were always bonuses.
AQ Epic  Post #: 35
11/3/2013 17:45:23   
ReinVI
Member

yeah just a quick note~ People bought the varium packs purely for the OP core to say otherwise would be non-sense. I bought the promo for the varium ( was desperately low on credits/ needed items and what not ) so I just got the weapons as a bonus heck I barely even use it unless I 'gamble' for the win ( shoot with azreals and hope for a block for the win ) but yeah... in all honest this balance shift for cores is a good thing. It's not fair in the least for people to sit there spamming strength based rage drains, 100+ % damage, etc etc all unblockable FOR FREE when skills that do much less cost energy to use.
Epic  Post #: 36
11/3/2013 21:26:16   
Mother1
Member

On topic

1 Yes I do. Now this has given counters to certain cores as well as balanced certain cores.

2 Yes I agree with this.

3 For most yes for others no.

4 No cause it already said that bots are suppose to be like your gun and aux which are all energy free.

5 This would add some more spice to the game. Currently there is only one class that has a move like this, and for certain classes this would benefit them especially if they aren't energy classes.

Post edited to remove reply to deleted post. ~Therril Oreb

< Message edited by Therril Oreb -- 11/4/2013 3:14:16 >
Epic  Post #: 37
11/3/2013 21:46:56   
Thylek Shran
Member

Is the change good or bad?

Overall I think its a good change but very unbalanced. I hope for more balance changes
because the essential problems like the mage str/support builds did not get solved with this.
They even became more powerfull with this change by using Piston Punch !
The change adds more strategy but also makes the game more complicated.


Do you think Energy cost is a good way to balance cores' power?

Yes it will do so with alot cores. But for some cores it would be better to nerf or buff them
without the energy option. The energy option is more for fine balance beween cores and skills
but cannot counter powerfull builds that rely more on stats and skills.


Are the Energy costs reasonable for cores?

Compared to the energy draining skills Static Smash, EMP and Assimilation the energy costs for
the energy drain cores are way to high. This does not mean that the energy cost of the cores is to high,
but it does mean that those skills should get nerfed. The drain cores and skills need to get balanced
because just look at this comparison I made. Its sorted descending by power (more powerfull on top).

Static Smash at level 1 does cost 0 EPs for draining/gaining a sum of 36 EPs (Lvl 36, 50 strenght) Can get blocked, no damage and rage gain but still drains a bit
Static Smash at level 7 does cost 0 EPs for draining/gaining a sum of 54 EPs (Lvl 36, 50 strenght) Can get blocked, no damage and rage gain but still drains a bit

Piston Punch does cost 0 EPs for draining/gaining a sum of 30 EPs. (level 35/36 armor) unblockable No damage and rage gain

Assimilation at level 1 does cost 0 EPs for draining/gaining a sum of 16 EPs (45-50 strenght) 85% damage, rage gain, drain unblockable Damage blockable
Assimilation at level 7 does cost 0 EPs for draining/gaining a sum of 30 EPs (45-50 strenght) 85% damage, rage gain, drain unblockable Damage blockable

EMP Grenade at level 1 does cost 10 EPs for draining 29 EPs (Difference=19)(86 technology) unblockable No damage and rage gain
EMP Grenade at level 7 does cost 16 EPs for draining 43 EPs (Difference=27)(86 technology) unblockable No damage and rage gain

Frost Shards/Frost Bite do cost 9 EPs for draining 15 EPs over 3 turns. Deflectable 100% strike dmg and rage gain

Energy Storm does cost 12 EPs for draining 22 (2*11) EPs (Lvl 36, Tank build with minimum strenght) unblockable No damage and rage gain
Energy Storm does cost 12 EPs for draining 24 (2*12) EPs (Lvl 36, 5 focus TM with high Deadly Aim) unblockable No damage and rage gain
Energy Storm does cost 12 EPs for draining 28 (2*14) EPs (Lvl 36, Strenght BM with high Deadly Aim) unblockable No damage and rage gain

Energy Shot does cost 7 EPs for draining 11 EPs (Lvl 36, Tank build with minimum strenght) unblockable No damage and rage gain
Energy Shot does cost 7 EPs for draining 14 EPs (Lvl 36, 5 focus TM with high Deadly Aim) unblockable No damage and rage gain
Energy Shot does cost 7 EPs for draining 16 EPs (Lvl 36, Strenght BM with high Deadly Aim) unblockable No damage and rage gain


The EP cost for Azraelīs Will and Azraelīs Torment are way to low. Azraelīs Torment should cost 22 EP
and Azraelīs Will 33 EP.

The 12 EPs for Concussive Shot is to high because this core is to much based on luck, reduces aux damage
and only puts the skill into a short cooldown phase. For this reasons the core got used very rarely at all since Omega.
Reduce it to 7 EP maybe.

Compare this with the 10 EPs for Meteor/Plasma Shower which get used by every strenght build and is unblockable
and you will see the difference. The 10 EPs for the Meteor/Plasma Shower should get increased to 15 EPs.
Also compare it with the 15 EPs, +15% dmg for the level 1 Double Strike which is blockable.

5 EPs for Exile/Legion strike ? That must be a bad joke. Should get increased to 15 EPs.

Same with Jack-O-Fire, Improbability Gate, Bacon Rain, Bacon Breath, Titan Chomp but at a cost
of 20-22 EPs.

Armored Roots: 10 EPs. Should be 20 EPs. The effect is like a strong Matrix + Energy Shield with 1 turn less.


How about cores that cost HP to use instead?
Think about variety and some builds not having Energy source but plenty of HP to spare.
This doesn't mean existing cores, but brand new cores in the future.

Definetly an interesting idea. There is already a skill with that effect: Blood Shield.

< Message edited by Thylek Shran -- 11/3/2013 21:53:13 >
DF Epic  Post #: 38
11/3/2013 23:23:20   
DeathGuard
Member

@Thylek: Those costs now are too high, cores are supposed to be aids, they aren't skills to cost that much. I think some cores do need some lower/higher energy costs but making a core effect costs what a skill would costs seems just like defeating the purpose of what cores are: aids. You can't compare cores and skills, is like comparing mangas of different genres, seen from different perspectives, both of them can be the best in their respective areas.

Post edited to remove reply to deleted post. ~Therril Oreb

< Message edited by Therril Oreb -- 11/4/2013 3:14:55 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 39
11/4/2013 2:06:13   
Thylek Shran
Member

^
Energy cost should be equal to the power of the item it belongs to. It does not matter if these are cores or skills.
If cores should be just little aids, some of them including Azraelīs Will are way to strong and deserve a nerf
because they are even more powerfull than alot skills. Azraelīs Will is like a 100% stun that could waste the
opponent rage totally or reduce it to a minimum of damage dependant if it get blocked. Additional power comes
from the tactical moment which often decides about winning and loosing. This makes this core at least as
powerfull as a maxed Bunker Buster even that it works different. I had lost many hundreds of duel just because
of this core and not that many because of Bunker Buster, Plasma Bolt and such.

quote:

You can't compare cores and skills, is like comparing mangas of different genres, seen from different perspectives, both of them can be the best in their respective areas.

As you see they can be compared very well.

Post edited to remove reply to deleted post. ~Therril Oreb

< Message edited by Therril Oreb -- 11/4/2013 3:15:31 >

_____________________________


v.35.3 (2016-01-23) ~ beam.to/shran
DF Epic  Post #: 40
11/4/2013 2:14:14   
kittycat
Member

I think the making the cores cost Energy helps, but I believe certain cores should be adjusted as stated below:

Tech Mages, Cyber Hunters, Tactical Mercenaries, and Mercenaries should have their cores cost Health because they have a reliable source of energy, while Blood Mages and Bounty Hunters should have their cores cost Energy because they have a reliable source of health.

I don't think it should be implemented on Bots because it is doing good the way it is right now.

Regarding cores that cost Health, the Devs could implement a core that converts health to mana for one round (i.e. 5 HP to 10 EP for those without BL, 9 HP to 10 EP for those with BL). (not the other way around i hope)

< Message edited by kittycat -- 11/4/2013 2:22:44 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 41
11/4/2013 2:32:08   
CN2025
Member

azreals were way too op before so giving all the atack cores energy cost isn't nerfing the azreals but actually balancing the whole lot power comes at a price thats how it should of always been.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 42
11/4/2013 2:37:19   
kittycat
Member

^^ Powers come at a price :) At the same time, Azrael's Will can be used as a free stun so basically it is so powerful that it merits a high cost. Some minor cores like Energy Shot help on limited situations, therefore comes at a lower cost.
AQ MQ  Post #: 43
11/4/2013 3:10:06   
martinsen5
Member

quote:

Also how does 10k varium can be free? It costs $50, the promo won't cost $50, if that was the case, only fools would buy it for that price.


@DeathGuard, Like I said, there is an option to buy varium alone, or a promotional package, which happens to come with bonus varium. At least that's how I see it, since you can buy 12 000 varium for the same price.

@Thylek Shran, I think you confuse skill cores with actual class skills, as cores aren't meant to be class specific, but rather availible to every class. Increasing the energy cost of active cores will make them far too expensive for classes without energy regain (Not that they aren't already) One might as well make an extra set of skills for some classes, then leave the rest without.

All in all I think some of the core's prices are fair, while others aren't. For instance, active cores like Meteor Shower are in my opinion over priced in terms of energy, as they really didn't cause any problems as far as balance goes, unlike Azrael's Will.

Edit: And sure, an unblockable attack, dealing 110 % damage should perhaps not be free of charge, but it's easier to say that when your class uses Reroute

Post edited to remove reply to deleted post. ~Therril Oreb

< Message edited by martinsen5 -- 11/4/2013 3:35:14 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 44
11/4/2013 3:20:16   
Therril Oreb
Legendary AdventureGuide!


 I had to delete and edit a couple of posts due to unacceptable behaviour.
Complaining, whining or raging helps nobody, not even yourself. You have to stay constructive and friendly under all circumstances. Failing to do so will result in your post being deleted and possible warnings issued.
This also counts for replies to such posts. If Someone breaks the rules, do not reply to it, do not try to mini-mod. Contact an online AK or moderator of the ED forums to solve the problem.
This keeps the forum environment positive and fun for everyone.

~Therril Oreb

< Message edited by Therril Oreb -- 11/4/2013 8:11:53 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 45
11/4/2013 3:59:43   
kaiseryeux21
Member

This balance move by the devs is something new which makes some players unable to fully understand yet the very purpose of this. It's very premature to say that because bm or bh doesnt have reroute or any other kind of energy regain skill, it nerfed them. We have cores like the generator and the new piston punch which will compensate to the lack of energy stealing skill. It's just that some people don't want to try it for whatever reasons. Pls. remember that "there's no harm in trying". It's just a matter of finding new builds and new strategy. Unless ofcourse you wanted to stick to your old build and be called "drones".
DF Epic  Post #: 46
11/4/2013 4:59:29   
Ranloth
Banned


 I'm with martinsen5 and DeathGuard on the Energy cost of cores - especially since some classes don't have fixed source of Energy, and taking even 50% of their full Energy to use one core would be a bit absurd, no matter what power. Personally, I do believe it should be around 17-18 Energy, to make it a bit more affordable, but not lower than 15 (since Torment costs 15 EP and Will > Torment).

Meteor cores have fair cost, in my opinion, because it's 10% damage boost - which is fairly cheap on its own (Energy wise) - but when we look at the fact it's unblockable nor cannot be deflected, it does translate to bigger power. Furthermore, it should be affordable for everyone - even my build has 12 Energy spare after Heal + Plasma Cannon, so I have choice between Bludgeon [2], Intimidate [1] or Omega Override, or Meteor Shower if I was to use a different Primary.

I can see the Energy cost issue, hence why increasing them is not a good idea - for any core. I could say Energy draining cores should be revised, but that'd be power wise and leaning towards balance suggestion which I've already made, especially now, when they cost Energy despite being defensive cores - or at least Energy Shot/Storm, which deal no damage.
Although, skills also cost Energy and 2 classes (BMs and BHs) don't even have a fixed source of Energy - unlike other classes - yet they still invest in many skills, but end up being more potent to the likes of Energy-draining skills. BMs don't have an Energy-draining skill, but they make up for it in sheer offense, and not necessarily the fad with Str BMs.

< Message edited by Trans -- 11/4/2013 5:05:58 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 47
11/4/2013 7:49:30   
DeathGuard
Member

^I empathize with your statement about dumping half of your energy just for the use of a core, seems out of control if you ask me, you're risking way too much and it seems it is more of a nerf. If such energy cost was added though, they should make the core damage with 100% of the original attack and not 85% to compensate such expensive energy cost.
quote:


@DeathGuard, Like I said, there is an option to buy varium alone, or a promotional package, which happens to come with bonus varium. At least that's how I see it, since you can buy 12 000 varium for the same price.
I was saying about the case of Pemberton, not current package price options :P

quote:

@Thylek Shran, I think you confuse skill cores with actual class skills, as cores aren't meant to be class specific, but rather availible to every class. Increasing the energy cost of active cores will make them far too expensive for classes without energy regain (Not that they aren't already)
This, I totally agree.

< Message edited by DeathGuard -- 11/4/2013 8:19:41 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 48
11/4/2013 8:27:57   
Ranloth
Banned


 Actually, there's two ways to go about it now. If Devs do decide to alter Azrael's Will - to be more affordable for all -, they could either lower the Energy cost by a little or keep it at 20 Energy and put the damage back to 100%*, as it used to be. After all, the problem with it was during the time when cores didn't cost Energy.
Although, I think people would rather prefer more affordable cost for everyone as opposed to higher damage and the same cost. After all, they use it for the effect, not damage.

* Yes, some builds do have Reroute and invest in Strength, as well as DA (obviously TMs), but it wouldn't overpower them because:
1) items don't make classes overpowered,
2) we have counter against cores, and
3) some classes can take advantage of their low defences
AQ Epic  Post #: 49
11/5/2013 0:22:52   
King FrostLich
Member

I find it strange that energy draining cores require energy to be used. Though I do understand Frost Shards having it as it deals damage, it doesn't make sense for Energy Shot and Energy Storm. These two cores deal an average of 11-15 mana drain, doesn't deal damage and rage gain which only seems useful to cutoff energy in situations that enemies have at least 8-9 mana more than what they need to cast(ex. having 40 mana yet you can use 32 for multi)

< Message edited by King FrostLich -- 11/5/2013 0:30:55 >
Epic  Post #: 50
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